MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
For those of you on thyroid medication
- Thread starter LiquidGib
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Do not raise the armour any further until you have the ACTH stim as I emailed you about. If you continue raising the armour dose and you have untreated adrenal insufficiency, you could end up with hyper symptoms and that can be very unpleasant. Cortisol breaks down T3, in low cortisol T3 builds up causing hyper.
Look at the hyper symptoms I posted earlier in the thread.
If your adrenals are addressed (no treatment needed or treatment begun), then you could raise by 1/4 and wait two weeks and raise another 1/4 grain. At 2 1/2 grains is where you must hold for 6 weeks, then retest if under docs care. After the 6 weeks are up then you could raise by another 1/4. Again, do not try to do this on your own. I've heard of people who have ended up in the hospital because they didn't know what they were doing. One guy comes to mind he started at 1 grain and raised by 1 grain every week until he got to 6 grains and payed a big price for his ignorance. I think he may have had a heart attack, don't know what happened after that.
Chris
Look at the hyper symptoms I posted earlier in the thread.
If your adrenals are addressed (no treatment needed or treatment begun), then you could raise by 1/4 and wait two weeks and raise another 1/4 grain. At 2 1/2 grains is where you must hold for 6 weeks, then retest if under docs care. After the 6 weeks are up then you could raise by another 1/4. Again, do not try to do this on your own. I've heard of people who have ended up in the hospital because they didn't know what they were doing. One guy comes to mind he started at 1 grain and raised by 1 grain every week until he got to 6 grains and payed a big price for his ignorance. I think he may have had a heart attack, don't know what happened after that.
Chris
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You are on adrenal granulars. From your last cortisol test, doesn't look like they are helping you, look undertreated. Actually, most people the dessicated adrenal granulars don't help except in milder cases. I don't know what is considered the max for the med you are taking, maybe is room to go up, check with your doc.
From my experiance in looking at least hundreds of cortisol tests, is likely you need to be tried on hydrocortisone, but I won't fault you for giving the Adrenal Tissue every opportunity to work. I still don't recommend you raise the Armour and your doc should have done the ACTH stim before starting you on any adrenal treatment.
Chris
From my experiance in looking at least hundreds of cortisol tests, is likely you need to be tried on hydrocortisone, but I won't fault you for giving the Adrenal Tissue every opportunity to work. I still don't recommend you raise the Armour and your doc should have done the ACTH stim before starting you on any adrenal treatment.
Chris
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Chrisgj2 said:
When my N.D. saw my cortisol levels were over 20 he didn't like it at all and wanted me to drink a protein shake for breakfast to help reduce them ASAP in the morning. However you are telling me that high cortisol is what we want? I am really confused, especially since My N.D.(James LaValle N.D....Google him, he has authored about 10 books) seems to be aligned with the same mentality of a leading Anti Aging Physician.
Phillip Miller M.D. in his book "Life Extension Revolution" says the following:
High Cortisol Promotes Heart Disease, Obesity, and Diabetes.
Cortisol Derails the Immune Response.
Cortisol Impairs Neurological Function.
From page 37 of his book:
"Whenever adrenal fatigue is suspected, it's important to have your doctor rule out the possibility of Addison's disease, a rare condtion in which the adrenals stop functioning. In the vast majority of cases however, adrenal fatigue can be treated with adrenal extracts or small amounts of cortisone to support and stimulate adrenal function. In additioan, DHEA replacement therapy is usually needed."
He states optimum Cortisol ranges is 9-14.
What do you base the need for higher Cortisol on? You are saying a level like 15 is low, but by these Doctors standards it is on the high end.
lets put it this way. My last cortisol was 20 and I had lost the hair on my shins, had year round tanning, weak and fatigued. These are all big symptoms of adrenal insufficiency. Your doc is going by those flawed ranges which have been gotten from sick people.
Sorry, but I totally disagree with your doc. If he thinks 9-14 is optimal then most of his patients aren't getting proper diagnosis. 9 - 14 is where a lot of people with adrenal insufficiency are at. That is pitiful really. I was at 20 which is way above your docs range and my symptoms, classic ones remember the hair loss and year round tanning (my tanning was splotchy which can happen in some secondaries which I am one) screamed AI.
From what you tell me, it looks like your doc only recognises Addison's disease and adrenal fatigue which is a lessor degree than adrenal insufficiency and temporary. Doens't look like he recognises anything inbetween.
Read this book "Safe Uses of Cortisol" by a doc that has dealt with treating adrenal insufficiency from the 50's to the 1980's when he retired. You quickly understand your doc is wrong. Docs like yours and many other docs, especially endos go strictly by the ranges and ignore classic symptoms. Your docs thinking is aligned with most endocrinologist. They are extremely bad with adrenals and thyroid. Two endos kicked me out the door though I was dying. An Environmental doc (like an osteopath) treated my cortisol and I credit him for saving my life. In an earlier post on this thread I mentioned how he had been involved in running a trial to see what healthy cortisol levels are and knew the ranges are flawed.
As I told you in email, that higher number of 20 from the lower ones you had can happen when the adrenals are still trying to hang on, giving their last gasp.
Again, 15 is the average I see for those with adrenal insufficiency. I see that number a lot.
I recommend you seek out an osteopath.
Chris
Sorry, but I totally disagree with your doc. If he thinks 9-14 is optimal then most of his patients aren't getting proper diagnosis. 9 - 14 is where a lot of people with adrenal insufficiency are at. That is pitiful really. I was at 20 which is way above your docs range and my symptoms, classic ones remember the hair loss and year round tanning (my tanning was splotchy which can happen in some secondaries which I am one) screamed AI.
From what you tell me, it looks like your doc only recognises Addison's disease and adrenal fatigue which is a lessor degree than adrenal insufficiency and temporary. Doens't look like he recognises anything inbetween.
Read this book "Safe Uses of Cortisol" by a doc that has dealt with treating adrenal insufficiency from the 50's to the 1980's when he retired. You quickly understand your doc is wrong. Docs like yours and many other docs, especially endos go strictly by the ranges and ignore classic symptoms. Your docs thinking is aligned with most endocrinologist. They are extremely bad with adrenals and thyroid. Two endos kicked me out the door though I was dying. An Environmental doc (like an osteopath) treated my cortisol and I credit him for saving my life. In an earlier post on this thread I mentioned how he had been involved in running a trial to see what healthy cortisol levels are and knew the ranges are flawed.
As I told you in email, that higher number of 20 from the lower ones you had can happen when the adrenals are still trying to hang on, giving their last gasp.
Again, 15 is the average I see for those with adrenal insufficiency. I see that number a lot.
I recommend you seek out an osteopath.
Chris
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Chrisgj2 said:
Well Chris whether you are right or wrong I thank you for your desire to help people.
My N.D. was not using any ranges when he had me start taking the Adrenal Tissue supplement. I have for many years now had dark circles under my eyes, so that along with a diagnostic test called Transdermal Screening which tests the voltage of your organs through the nervous system using accupunture miridians showed I needed some adrenal tissue.
I don't have any hair loss on my shins or tanning and for the last year I have taken a lot of PS to suppress high circulating cortisol levels as everything I have read says it is evil.
I will do further research and check out the books you mentioned.
But I am not sold yet. Too many leading edge, Anti Aging doctors are saying the opposite to your theory.
You don't have to have tanning, most secondaries don't have it. Tanning in primaries usually happen in numbers much lower than yours. The tanning has to do with acth not cortisol.
This book is the only proof I can show you. From the publisher (CCThomas.com) is the cheapest place to get it.
*Safe Uses of Cortisol by Wm Jefferies (3rd 2004 edition)
$43 includes shipping. Cheapest price I've seen for a new copy
http://www.ccthomas.com/details.cfm?P_ISBN=039807500X
Anyone can call themself an anti-aging doc as you probably know. I suspect the anti-aging docs you refer to are probably endos.
When some ranges start as low as 2 (2 -24) and some docs think 6 is Addison's and most docs (especially endos) won't touch you until you reach 2 or lower or basically at deaths door, that shows how the ranges are flawed. Most docs look at the tests as showing the adrenals are working or not working.
I've been dealing with a mother whose son (16 years) hasn't been in school for 2 years because of AI. His last cortisol was a 5 which is in range, no doc will give him steroid. His aldosterone was below range and he is treated for that. It's frustrating for me that in two years of me helping them, they can't find a doc that will try him on steroid. His last stim went from 5 to 25, very indicative of a pituitary condition (low acth), but the docs think that it quintupled is fantastic and don't realize his adrenals still work just not getting the ACTH signal (his acth serum was just inside the bottom of the range). He has hashi's as well and no tumor found on his pituitary, so I suspect antibodies are attacking his pituitary. I hope this little story might convience you that the ranges are very flawed.
Feel free to contact me anytime. Chrisgj@sbcglobal.net
Chris
This book is the only proof I can show you. From the publisher (CCThomas.com) is the cheapest place to get it.
*Safe Uses of Cortisol by Wm Jefferies (3rd 2004 edition)
$43 includes shipping. Cheapest price I've seen for a new copy
http://www.ccthomas.com/details.cfm?P_ISBN=039807500X
Anyone can call themself an anti-aging doc as you probably know. I suspect the anti-aging docs you refer to are probably endos.
When some ranges start as low as 2 (2 -24) and some docs think 6 is Addison's and most docs (especially endos) won't touch you until you reach 2 or lower or basically at deaths door, that shows how the ranges are flawed. Most docs look at the tests as showing the adrenals are working or not working.
I've been dealing with a mother whose son (16 years) hasn't been in school for 2 years because of AI. His last cortisol was a 5 which is in range, no doc will give him steroid. His aldosterone was below range and he is treated for that. It's frustrating for me that in two years of me helping them, they can't find a doc that will try him on steroid. His last stim went from 5 to 25, very indicative of a pituitary condition (low acth), but the docs think that it quintupled is fantastic and don't realize his adrenals still work just not getting the ACTH signal (his acth serum was just inside the bottom of the range). He has hashi's as well and no tumor found on his pituitary, so I suspect antibodies are attacking his pituitary. I hope this little story might convience you that the ranges are very flawed.
Feel free to contact me anytime. Chrisgj@sbcglobal.net
Chris
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Here are a couple of examples of docs who think the cortisol ranges are flawed. The first link I doc says greater than 18 is healthy. The second link a doc says 25 should be the cut off for AI. I agree with the second doc.
Scrowl down to SCREENING TESTS
http://www.postgradmed.com/issues/1998/07_98/hasinski.htm
http://www.pulmonaryreviews.com/jan03/pr_jan03_adrenal.html
Scrowl down to SCREENING TESTS
http://www.postgradmed.com/issues/1998/07_98/hasinski.htm
http://www.pulmonaryreviews.com/jan03/pr_jan03_adrenal.html
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Sorry to hijack this thread, but what you said about healthy response to an ACTH stim test got me thinking. I had one done last year to rule out adrenal failure. Prior to ACTH injection cortisol was at 26.8ug/dl. One hour after it went up to 38.9ug/dl. I did have to walk about 10minutes from the car to the lab. The baseline cortisol was drawn as soon as i got in.
The only reason I have not dropped the subject is all of my life, I have lived with an irritable/sensitive digestion, heat intolerance, and cardiac arrhythmia. I do feel better on licorice extracts and tend to crave salt. I remember you from another forum and how you survived the nightmare of pituitary failure. BTW, I am also secondary hypogonadal from age 13. Your opinion would be valued.
The only reason I have not dropped the subject is all of my life, I have lived with an irritable/sensitive digestion, heat intolerance, and cardiac arrhythmia. I do feel better on licorice extracts and tend to crave salt. I remember you from another forum and how you survived the nightmare of pituitary failure. BTW, I am also secondary hypogonadal from age 13. Your opinion would be valued.
I think your stim is the highest I've seen. I mean, highest base and highest stim result. Maybe you body needs a base of around 35. You really shouldn't have been walking that far before the test because strenous activity may raise or lower your base. I think most docs would have a hard time giving you steroid with those numbers, though not saying they shouldn't have, I think it should have been tried.
I think it is time for you to get another stim and see what is happening now. A lot can happen in a year. Also get ACTH serum as that can help determine is primary or secondary. This time don't walk any further than 50 yards, but best if you are close to the building so not risk affecting the test.
Since you have heat intolerance and crave salt it is likely you also have low aldosterone. Very important you also get aldosterone and renin tests. Make sure he does renin, so docs don't think is necessary, but I think it is.
And last, better get thyroid testing. Here's tests you need, TSH, Free 3, Free T4, antibody tests. Make sure these are done and not totals instead of frees.
Licorice is very dangerous and I don't recommend it for anyone. It can easily raise your bp to high.
When you get all those tests, I'll be happy to look at them and give my opinion.
Chris
I think it is time for you to get another stim and see what is happening now. A lot can happen in a year. Also get ACTH serum as that can help determine is primary or secondary. This time don't walk any further than 50 yards, but best if you are close to the building so not risk affecting the test.
Since you have heat intolerance and crave salt it is likely you also have low aldosterone. Very important you also get aldosterone and renin tests. Make sure he does renin, so docs don't think is necessary, but I think it is.
And last, better get thyroid testing. Here's tests you need, TSH, Free 3, Free T4, antibody tests. Make sure these are done and not totals instead of frees.
Licorice is very dangerous and I don't recommend it for anyone. It can easily raise your bp to high.
When you get all those tests, I'll be happy to look at them and give my opinion.
Chris
love_en said:
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Chrisgj2 said:
It is very rare that someone with Adrenal problems has normal or high blood pressure, in which case BP would need to be monitored more closely when taking Licorice. It also would depend on how much Licorice one takes. I have used Licorice with great success for the Adrenals, but I did experience the testosterone lowering effects as well.
I can second that. I was on licorice prior to starting the long journey to TRT. I did stop taking it 2 months prior to getting any bloodwork done. Worst 2 months of my life. For me licorice got rid of my orthostatic hypotension, the easily offended digestion and my unstable blood pressure. Even when I was on the equivalent of 10 grams of licorice from China, my blood pressure never went over 120/80. I know what licorice can do to a person with normal adrenal output, it depletes potassium, increases sodium retention and causes high blood pressure. In 1995, I complained to my PCP about my low blood pressure, PVC's and a racing heart. The one thing on my bloodwork that struck me as odd, was my potassium level. It was at the top of the reference range and my sodium was at the bottom. I eat all the salt I want, yet can't seem to hang on to it. It is true that licorice does reduce the endogenous production of T and it does contain some phytoestrogens. I do not think it would matter if one is on TRT and estrogen management. But 5 mg prednisone and 0.05 mg fludrocortisone is much easier to titrate than an herb. I am prepared to do that. As is, my TRT is a DIY affair.
I would love to get another stim test and all of the other bloodwork redone. Problem is, I have seen quite a few doctors here in Hawaii. All of them only know about diabetes and hypothyroidism. I am not too enthusiastic about alternative practitioners because they missed my endocrine problems when I was growing up. Right now, it is a dry and windy 80 here. I do start to suffer when it is any warmer. So March to December can be the worst time of the year for me. In paradise my ass, not if you are hypogonadal and have underperforming adrenals.
I would love to get another stim test and all of the other bloodwork redone. Problem is, I have seen quite a few doctors here in Hawaii. All of them only know about diabetes and hypothyroidism. I am not too enthusiastic about alternative practitioners because they missed my endocrine problems when I was growing up. Right now, it is a dry and windy 80 here. I do start to suffer when it is any warmer. So March to December can be the worst time of the year for me. In paradise my ass, not if you are hypogonadal and have underperforming adrenals.
love_en said:
Love_en,
Check out this thread for more info:
https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134239653
Have you tried an osteopath. This site I checked an there are over 80 of them listed for Hawaii. When it comes to thyroid and adrenals as a group osteopaths are the ones to see for these. Osteopaths are not alternative docs, but are real MD's.
http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=findado_main
http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=findado_main
love_en said:
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