how does the hpta work

[masterpp]

specifically i dont understand this seeming contradiction

ive read on this forum of some secondary men who have gone on trt (without hcg) and their total has actually gone down, because their lh and fsh has shut off.

1. isnt that a contradiction in terms. or is it a case that the mere presence of exogenous testosterone is recognised by the body.

2. my question is actually a selfish one, as i am wondering if i can get away with merely topping up my own levels of t, returning them to a normal level through a low dose of trt, without going over the limit, and therefor, not effecting my lh and fsh.

3.also i dont understand why with time people have to increase their dosage of trt. surely if your doing a large ish dosage of trt to start with, your hpta will shut off. i dont understnad why some users experience the law of dwindling returns. surely the hpta is either off or on. i dont understand why some men, a year down the line, only then realise they need to increase their dosage.

 

[pcgizzmo]

If enough external T is supplied to ones body whatever production how ever little that may be will cease because the body will sense there is already T present in the blood and shut down LH and FSH production in response to the external T.

With T replacement there is no try only do. (Just joking) You can't just top off your levels. It does not work that way. When you add external T you have to add enough to not only compensate for the HPTA shutdown but also enough to bring your T levels into the upper third of the normal range.

That being said depending on if you are secondary or primary some people can take HCG or Clomid and raise their own natural T production without having to use external T to do it. If you are interested in keeping the HPTA intact I would try small doeses of clomid to see if that helps. HCG will shut down LH and FSH in the body but still keep the testicles working.

Paul

 

[masterpp]

chlomid wont help as im primary.

i really dont see why one cant just top up without effecting the hpta. guys do largish dosages of trt which completely replace the t they were making before they had the treatment.

 

[pcgizzmo]

Correct but, the also do large dose's of Post Cycle Therapy to get their HTPA going again. Hence the HCG and Clomid or Novladex. If you are primary then what are your levels? If you are truly primary you may not have any choice but to use HRT. I have heard of one or two guys restarting but, to me primary means the testis are not working anymore and there is not much you can do about that as far as what I have seen. If you will look over at Anabolic forum on this board you will see everyone that uses AAS will use Post Cycle Therapy to bring their HPTA back on line. It will "Usually" come back on its own but, will take a while and may not come back on it own at all. In your case you are already broken w/primary.

As an example of your #2 question. I was on 5g of Androgel ED. Within 4 days my body had shut down its own natural production and my levels were lower than they were when I started and I felt like total shit. I dropped the gel and started small dose Clomid EOD for about two weeks and I started feeling fine again. In your case if you are truly primary you don't have this option but, I just wanted to show you how a small does of T can shut you down. You have no way of knowing just what amount of T will shut you down. If it were that easy to regulate everyone would be just bumping up their T levels.

Paul

 

[pmgamer18]

chlomid wont help as im primary.

i really dont see why one cant just top up without effecting the hpta. guys do largish dosages of trt which completely replace the t they were making before they had the treatment.

What did they use to tell you you are primary. I am primary and do T shots 64 mgs every 3 days and the day before my T shot I do 250 IU's of HCG before adding HCG my T levels were 650 on 150 mgs. of T shots every week. My Dr. added 500 IU's of HCG 3 x's a week and after my 15th. shot of HCG my levels went up to 1087 so even though one is primary the testis still can make T. So I don't think your HPTA running or not will have any thing to do with you T levels. When I stop T did it 7 times my HPTA allways started up again but my total T would only go up to 120. For some reasion my testis work better with HCG. If I were you I would try doing Depo shots get your levels up and then when stable add HCG. With your HPTA running or not your going to be low on T.

 

[chap]

I think part of the reason you can't just 'top up' your levels without causing suppression is the fact that the body is naturally a very pulsatile and varying hormonal output, very small amounts secreted throughout the day in varying amounts depending on the time... when you 'bulldoze' that with a test injection or gel, you are getting unnatural levels up and down at unnatural times (and there is no way of getting around that with current technology), which will always result in suppression.

 

[masterpp]

very interesting. you see i really dont see why trt can lower ones total t, and still lead to the turning off of the hpta. it doesnt make sense to me.

why cant we just top up a bit, if the dosage is correct. most guys, bulldose their levels, by doing large dosses of trt, but if one administered the correct, small amount why cant we just top up.

also pmgamer, are you saying that despite being primary, you feel like your testicles worked better when stimulated by hcg, as opposed to your own hpta? at least thats the impression i got from your post

Correct but, the also do large dose's of Post Cycle Therapy to get their HTPA going again. Hence the HCG and Clomid or Novladex. If you are primary then what are your levels? If you are truly primary you may not have any choice but to use HRT. I have heard of one or two guys restarting but, to me primary means the testis are not working anymore and there is not much you can do about that as far as what I have seen. If you will look over at Anabolic forum on this board you will see everyone that uses AAS will use Post Cycle Therapy to bring their HPTA back on line. It will "Usually" come back on its own but, will take a while and may not come back on it own at all. In your case you are already broken w/primary.

As an example of your #2 question. I was on 5g of Androgel ED. Within 4 days my body had shut down its own natural production and my levels were lower than they were when I started and I felt like total shit. I dropped the gel and started small dose Clomid EOD for about two weeks and I started feeling fine again. In your case if you are truly primary you don't have this option but, I just wanted to show you how a small does of T can shut you down. You have no way of knowing just what amount of T will shut you down. If it were that easy to regulate everyone would be just bumping up their T levels.

Paul

 

[chap]

You are missing my point. Even if you do a very small dose of testosterone in an injection, you are 'bulldozing' at some split seconds of time and not at others. The pituitary works in extremely small pulses as do the testicles etc. These pulses vary according to a certain time of day based rhythm, and upsetting this natural rhythm and cycle causes suppression. It is not simply a case of, "well, I will supplement myself by 100 ng of testosterone right at the moment, therefore my pituitary will sense that and reduce the testicles' production by that 100 ng"... I think it is more like "pituitary senses a higher level then it has dictated at any given second, and reacts strongly the opposite way in attempting to rectify the situation".... it does appear that the male endocrine system is much easier to get to err on the side of less testosterone production vs. more.

 

[masterpp]

i see. so basically with testosterone replacement therapy it is an all or nothing situation. the hpta is so sensitive to even a small amount of exogenous t, that it will recognise it as being much larger, and so in your opinion even a small amount of exogenouse will have a similar destructive effect as normal dossage. in your opinion therefor there is no such thing as topping up with small dosages.

do you other guys agree with this statement.

 

[rrcat]

I dont like to get off the subject but this is kinda on the same line. You guys are right that a low dose of T will probally shut your levels down further. Why then when treating adrenal fatigue it is recommened to take a low dose of hydrocortisone? There is a negative feedback loop with cortisol, so wouldnt a low dose of cortisone shut your adrenals down further?

 

[pcgizzmo]

i see. so basically with testosterone replacement therapy it is an all or nothing situation. the hpta is so sensitive to even a small amount of exogenous t, that it will recognise it as being much larger, and so in your opinion even a small amount of exogenouse will have a similar destructive effect as normal dossage. in your opinion therefor there is no such thing as topping up with small dosages.

do you other guys agree with this statement.

Thats what we have been trying to tell you. You can't just do a little T replacement. Its all or nothing. As soon as your body senses an external source it will within a very short time shut down your HPTA. Read this and you should have a fairly good understanding of the HPTA.

http://www.xtrememass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=407

Paul

 

[pcgizzmo]

I dont like to get off the subject but this is kinda on the same line. You guys are right that a low dose of T will probally shut your levels down further. Why then when treating adrenal fatigue it is recommened to take a low dose of hydrocortisone? There is a negative feedback loop with cortisol, so wouldnt a low dose of cortisone shut your adrenals down further?

I believe feedback does occur but, at a lesser level. Perhaps Marianco if reading this and can chime in.

I got this little bit of info off of a medical information site.

Adrenal activity is regulated by the pituitary gland. When the adrenals become fatigued, the pituitary senses this fatigue in the form of lowered levels of hydrocortisone and releases ACTH.

ACTH commands the adrenals to perk up and produce more hormones. That works for a while, but the adrenals may become overworked and unable to respond in which case, ACTH stimulation simply stresses them more and leads more quickly to fatigue

Supplementing Hydro Cortisone in this case gives the adrenals time to recover

Paul

 

[mranak]

What did they use to tell you you are primary.

Have you seen his labs? His LH and FSH are through the roof.

Guys, masterpp has a different situation from the rest of us. For basically everyone else on TRT in this forum (perhaps there is minor exception), we desire to increase our serum testosterone to a point that is, while still in the normal range, above our bodies setpoint.

At this time, masterpp does not have a need to increase his serum testosterone above his bodies setpoint. Rather, his body is unable to reach its setpoint on its own.

It _might_ be possible that masterpp can supplement his bodies testosterone production with a very low dose of exogenous testosterone. For example...you know how many of us use 5g or even 10g packets of Androgel or Testim? Well, masterpp could perhaps use just 1g/day....not nearly enough to produce enough negative feedback to shut off LH and FSH but enough to supplement the testosterone that his body wants but is unable to make; that is, his body can make _some_ of the testosterone it wants, but not all of it. His body might be producing 70% of the testosterone it wants right now.

Will what I mention work? I'm not sure. It might not. But if it does, then it is a good fit for the what masterpp wants. That is, it will still maintain his natural function and simply supplement it.

 

[pcgizzmo]

Where would he get such a dosing? Have it compounded? So you are saying since his LH and FSH are so high adding a little bit of T would not cause that great of a feedback? Interesting idea. Worth a try masterpp if that is the case.

Paul

 

[pcgizzmo]

Where are your blood tests masterpp? Some other post maybe????

 

[masterpp]

Have you seen his labs? His LH and FSH are through the roof.

Guys, masterpp has a different situation from the rest of us. For basically everyone else on TRT in this forum (perhaps there is minor exception), we desire to increase our serum testosterone to a point that is, while still in the normal range, above our bodies setpoint.

At this time, masterpp does not have a need to increase his serum testosterone above his bodies setpoint. Rather, his body is unable to reach its setpoint on its own.

It _might_ be possible that masterpp can supplement his bodies testosterone production with a very low dose of exogenous testosterone. For example...you know how many of us use 5g or even 10g packets of Androgel or Testim? Well, masterpp could perhaps use just 1g/day....not nearly enough to produce enough negative feedback to shut off LH and FSH but enough to supplement the testosterone that his body wants but is unable to make; that is, his body can make _some_ of the testosterone it wants, but not all of it. His body might be producing 70% of the testosterone it wants right now.

Will what I mention work? I'm not sure. It might not. But if it does, then it is a good fit for the what masterpp wants. That is, it will still maintain his natural function and simply supplement it.

youve got my back mranak

guys, my results are below

Plasma oestradiol 202 PMOL/l (less than 191)
plasma fsh 65.8 iu/l (obviously seriously high
plasma lh 38.2 (1.5-9.3)
plasma testosterone 11.4 nmol/l (8.4-28.7)
Plasma prolatcin 336 mU/l (45-375)

Cortisol 839 nmol/l (180-620)

but for a clearer explanation of things can you check out my thread
https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134241673

 

[pcgizzmo]

He may be right. With your levels being that high it might be possible to supplement a little without shutting down. I would not go overboard though or things could come to a screaching halt.


Paul

 

[chap]

take this for what it's worth, as I'm not an M.D., but if my numbers looked like that, I wouldn't be thinking of testosterone supplementation. Personally, I would be addressing the high estradiol and the high prolactin directly and see where that would put me. Your numbers are so out of whack though I would be very careful of doing anything without the advice of a good endocrinologist.

Have you done more than one blood test to confirm the high LH and other numbers?

 

[masterpp]

yeah my lh hovers around there, often its lower, but either way its very high.

i dont know why my estrogen went so high. i tried dim, for a couple of days, but instead of getting morning wood and tight nipples, two days ago i started feeling really lethargic. i dont know if it was the DIM or just bad timing with hay feaver. ill go back on the dim tomorow. surely i should get wood and stuff before fealing crappy

 

[pmgamer18]

yeah my lh hovers around there, often its lower, but either way its very high.

i dont know why my estrogen went so high. i tried dim, for a couple of days, but instead of getting morning wood and tight nipples, two days ago i started feeling really lethargic. i dont know if it was the DIM or just bad timing with hay feaver. ill go back on the dim tomorow. surely i should get wood and stuff before fealing crappy

Are you saying your Estrogen went high or did you mean your Estradiol went high. What dose of and kind of DIM did you take if your trying to bring down E2 then do DIM but if your trying to bring down Total E's no don't take DIM.
If it was for E2 and you were having morning wood and it stopped stop the DIM until the wood comes back you may have gone to low on E2.