liver enzymes

[flenser]

I got really sick when I added orals (var) to the end of my cycle. I felt (and looked) like a bloated toad. Couldn’t work out, couldn’t work, all I did was sleep. I dropped the cycle as soon as I started swelling, and am now just on TRT @80mg ew test e.

Initial / Last week / this week (range)
ALT 19 / 208 / 48 (5 - 40 U/L)
AST 22 / 171 / 93 (10 - 37 U/L)
Bilirubin 0.8 / 0.5 / 0.4 (0 - 1.2 mg/dL)

Hepatitis tests were all negative (non-det)

I never went to the doc, and I know I should have. My question is, should I go now or wait a couple more weeks to see if the numbers continue to improve? I feel pretty normal now. Also, are there any other tests I should be running?

Other relevant stats: age 51, between 12% and 15% bf. Drink some on weekends, 3-5 beers Friday and sat., but no alcohol during the week and none while on the orals. Not drinking at all now, of course, and no sups of any kind. Still drink coffee.

Note, I saw BR1217's thread and the great advise from Dr. Scally. I'm mostly wondering if there's something my family doc would do for me that I'm not already doing for myself. He doesn't know I use aas, and my TRT prescription is with a private doc under a different id. Appreciate any advise.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

He/She would do nothing but follow up labs to ensure no concerns.

 

[flenser]

Thanks Dr. Scally. I guess since I'm already doing the follow up labs myself, my doc doesn't need to know about it.

 

[cvictorg]

I got really sick when I added orals (var) to the end of my cycle. I felt (and looked) like a bloated toad. Couldn’t work out, couldn’t work, all I did was sleep. I dropped the cycle as soon as I started swelling, and am now just on TRT @80mg ew test e.

Initial / Last week / this week (range)
ALT 19 / 208 / 48 (5 - 40 U/L)
AST 22 / 171 / 93 (10 - 37 U/L)
Bilirubin 0.8 / 0.5 / 0.4 (0 - 1.2 mg/dL)

Hepatitis tests were all negative (non-det)

I never went to the doc, and I know I should have. My question is, should I go now or wait a couple more weeks to see if the numbers continue to improve? I feel pretty normal now. Also, are there any other tests I should be running?

Other relevant stats: age 51, between 12% and 15% bf. Drink some on weekends, 3-5 beers Friday and sat., but no alcohol during the week and none while on the orals. Not drinking at all now, of course, and no sups of any kind. Still drink coffee.

Note, I saw BR1217's thread and the great advise from Dr. Scally. I'm mostly wondering if there's something my family doc would do for me that I'm not already doing for myself. He doesn't know I use aas, and my TRT prescription is with a private doc under a different id. Appreciate any advise.

1) How much anavar were you using?
2) Did you run a lipid panel (hdl, ldl, trigs, etc.)?
3) Have you had this problem before - elevated liver enzymes while using AAS?

 

[Oregongearhead]

I've been warning guys (and gal) about running high doses of orals or mixing orals , and been ignored as paranoid or overly-cautious , but this is why . I think that in a attempt to please folks the UGL"s overdose their injectables and orals . Its not as important to be precise with dosing with the injectables as it is with the orals.....

If you think you got 20mg Anavar and its really 50-100mg you could be in big trouble with 2 or 3 at a time . Even bigger trouble if its actually Dbol or A-bombs. Do you have any itching (prutius) or yellowing of skin/eyes (jaundice) ?

Feeling tired and the itching was my first sign , I dropped the oral and started my TRT dose , it took 2 weeks but I started feeling better again . My liver enzymes never got over high normal , and returned back to low normal a month later . Let this be a lesson to our older crowd , we cant take the high oral doses like the kids can .....

Would you mind PM"ing me with the labs name Flenser ?

 

[flenser]

1) How much anavar were you using?
2) Did you run a lipid panel (hdl, ldl, trigs, etc.)?
3) Have you had this problem before - elevated liver enzymes while using AAS?

1. 80mg ed for a little over 2 weeks before the swelling started.
2. Lipids were unchanged, though ldl was high as usual. Had a vap test last month which showed I need to improve a few things, but wasn't bad overall.
3. Never. As a teen I once had alcohol poisoning which resulted in similar swelling. I don't remember if the doc even took blood tests, though.

 

[flenser]

I've been warning guys (and gal) about running high doses of orals or mixing orals , and been ignored as paranoid or overly-cautious , but this is why . I think that in a attempt to please folks the UGL"s overdose their injectables and orals . Its not as important to be precise with dosing with the injectables as it is with the orals.....

If you think you got 20mg Anavar and its really 50-100mg you could be in big trouble with 2 or 3 at a time . Even bigger trouble if its actually Dbol or A-bombs. Do you have any itching (prutius) or yellowing of skin/eyes (jaundice) ?

Feeling tired and the itching was my first sign , I dropped the oral and started my TRT dose , it took 2 weeks but I started feeling better again . My liver enzymes never got over high normal , and returned back to low normal a month later . Let this be a lesson to our older crowd , we cant take the high oral doses like the kids can .....

Would you mind PM"ing me with the labs name Flenser ?

I'm done with orals, period. Odds are good I have permanent liver damage.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

I'm done with orals, period. Odds are good I have permanent liver damage.

No.

 

[Oregongearhead]

I'm done with orals, period. Odds are good I have permanent liver damage.

^^^^ How many more of these do we have to see before people get the picture ? Probably a bunch more (it wont happen to me ........)

 

[toolman]

^^^^ How many more of these do we have to see before people get the picture ? Probably a bunch more (it wont happen to me ........)

It's just like every idiot you see with a cigarette in their mouth. I know these cause cancer and early death, but not in me.

Flenser not to bash you at all but I am not sure where your head is for a man your age. First you are doing a great disservice to your self to not share absolutely everything about your health, meds, etc. with your doctor. Why on earth would you be hiding the fact that you are being treated for TRT? Also why do you need to go to another doc under a different identity for TRT? What is this different identity, Clark Kent? If it is a false one and you are in the US you are committing a crime. What is the need for secrecy? More importantly at our age, as we seem to be close in age, you should start to realize your mortality and not be screwing around with orals or any heavy cycles. I get the desire to reach new heights in muscle and strength gains, but I went through that in my 20's- early 30's. I am convinced that is why I am on TRT now for life and if I could go back in time to undo what I did in the ignorance in my youth, I would do it in a heartbeat.

The liver is an amazing organ that takes a lot of abuse and my guess is as your enzymes are returning to normal it will recover and the scare seems to have been a good thing for you. However I would highly recommend you either be 100% honest with your doctor or find one you are comfortable being honest with so you can focus on what should be most important, your health, instead of your physique which in the great scheme of things, is not worth losing a liver or having any other health issues over.

 

[flenser]

Can't argue with you on the stupidity of taking orals at my age. I got carried away and paid for it. And I know it could have been much worse.

I can't really talk about my legal and identity issues except to say that what I'm doing with the TRT doc is NOT illegal, just.. creative.

 

[Oregongearhead]

Toolman , you should know , older guys take heavy cycles for the same reasons younger guys do, increase muscle mass/strength , look fantastic & impress the ladies , and other guys .
That doesnt diminish with age , especially if you already suffer from body dismorphia or low self-esteem .

If anything I feel the need to look great is increasing , and its not going away anytime soon . The sales of legal testosterone & HGH to older men has went thru the roof , and Big Pharma is onboard .

If he would have got what he should have got , real var ,he would have been fine , even though 80mg var is considered excessive . But 80mg dbol is too much for most guys , especially older ones .

If Astro couldnt get (or steal) the real thing he shouldnt have advertised it as such........

 

[toolman]

Toolman , you should know , older guys take heavy cycles for the same reasons younger guys do, increase muscle mass/strength , look fantastic & impress the ladies , and other guys .
That doesnt diminish with age , especially if you already suffer from body dismorphia or low self-esteem .

If anything I feel the need to look great is increasing , and its not going away anytime soon . The sales of legal testosterone & HGH to older men has went thru the roof , and Big Pharma is onboard .

If he would have got what he should have got , real var ,he would have been fine , even though 80mg var is considered excessive . But 80mg dbol is too much for most guys , especially older ones .

If Astro couldnt get (or steal) the real thing he shouldnt have advertised it as such........

Understood Oregon but as I have gotten older, I have realized that my overall health is way more important than muscle mass. Further, that too much muscle mass is also not healthy. For me it was never to impress the ladies or other guys. It was more the goal of achieving greater strength. And to be honest, money impresses the ladies way more than muscle mass and quite honestly, the women that are impressed by either aren't worth more than the occasional fuck.

In my 30's I was about 220-230lbs, 6'4" and extremely low body fat. Now I have shrunk an inch and down to 190. I look and feel way better than I used to. I can scratch my own back and my golf and tennis games are far superior. More importantly all my labs are text book, with the exception of a hematocrit that hovers around 50-51%

I know what you say, that older guys are running heavy cycles for the same reason as younger guys. But as we area now older, we should be wiser. We all get a limited time on this planet and I would rather have a natural build and more time with my future grandchildren that risk any of that time for a body that I think women will find impressive. I do not disagree that a cycle of 200mgs of test once in awhile would be safe, but to run tren, or orals, or insane doses that I see advocated on these boards is just plain foolish. I say this as an experienced older guy who was a fool before so I am throwing no stones, just making an observation.

 

[flenser]

Received results from blood work taken last Friday. Enzymes are almost back to normal.

AST 29
ALT 23
Bilirubin 0.5

I was feeling sort of lethargic today and was worried about a relapse, but I guess not. I'm just lazy

Anyway, thanks everyone for the support and advise.

 

[Dr JIM]

Ah don't be so hard on yourself mate!

I suspect you can still do ONE ORAL AAS at a REASONABLE DOSAGE and DURATION.

Moreover since you drink ETOH some of these elevations are the result of that forbidden fruit

Most importantly your BILIRUBIN never reached an abnormal (>1.5) which is a more specific and useful to determine whether the liver's compensatory mechanisms were exceeded.

And yours were NOT! If such was the case (a bilirubin above 1.5) that drug or class of drugs must be AVOIDED ENTIRELY!!!

Jim

 

[flenser]

Thanks doc. I have been tossing around the idea of a Spring cycle with (real this time) var at the end, though maybe at half the previous dosage. I'll probably change my mind a dozen times before Spring, though.

I don't know how risky my condition really was, but overall it wasn't all that unpleasant. The bloating was uncomfortable and disturbing to look at, but the sleep I got was the best I've had in years.

 

[Dr JIM]

OP
I originally overlooked the original comment about swelling, BUT FROM VAR. Oh I suspect that's UNLIKELY.

Fact is I'll bet a $100 what "AAS" you were sold was Methyl Test!

Moreover the changes in your LFTs certainly don't explain that swelling whatsoever!

Nope most ""AAS bloat" (AKA fluid retention) comes from the AROMATIZATION of TT into E-2 and M-T is well known to undergo that metabolic destiny!

Var however does NOT aromatize so "bloat" is essentially unheard of.

Jim

 

[flenser]

They were Astro/Sciroxx var tabs, aka dbol confirmed by the labmax test kit.

 

[Dr JIM]

Well now doesn't that make sense! Because;

Methandrostenolone = D-Bol

Oxanadrolone = Anavar

While the FORMER does AROMATIZE the latter does not!

Find a lab that sells you what they promise unless you misunderstood the differences in these two AAS

 

[flenser]

Well now doesn't that make sense! Because;

Methandrostenolone = D-Bol

Oxanadrolone = Anavar

While the FORMER does AROMATIZE the latter does not!

Find a lab that sells you what they promise unless you misunderstood the differences in these two AAS

I understood the differences. That's why I stopped taking them as soon as I noticed the swelling. If I decide to try it again, I'll definitely go with a different lab.