2000 Mules / Election Documentary

I'm not going to try to debunk every every election fraud claim. If someone believe that there is bamboo in the paper ballots or if a couple thousand people supposedly had their phones pinged which somehow proves election fraud, I doubt they would ever believe anything I have to say.

One thing I have no doubt about is their sincerity. They actually believe what they hear and read. That will take us all to a very dark place.

Trump claimed election fraud in 2016 when he technically won although he lost by several million votes. Was it a mystery to anyone that he would completely meltdown if he lost? Which he did by many millions.

I consider myself a Reagan Republican, but there is no way in hell I would support any trump sycophant even if it meant putting Maxine Waters in the Whitehouse as Truely fucked up as that would be, but I think it would be the less destructive choice.
The problem is we are in a place with our current leadership where the misery index is gonna skyrocket.

Energy costs are what drive the economy, it is responsible for our wealth. Just as you couldn't survive and do work without calories, the economy needs cheap energy to get moving.

It seems our current leaders are willing to ignore this problem and not only that bring more people into the country to gobble up resources ignoring overpopulation while at the same time spreading essential resources thin.

This is getting dangerous as those that are retired and on fixed incomes simply won't be able to sustain themselves without inflation being brought way down(massive recession, layoffs and firings) or entitlements cranked up to compensate.

I didn't like Trump at all, I thought he was a mindless hedonist, that said he would have kept the oil flowing and that's extremely important.

25% of the top income earners are responsible for almost 70% of spending.

That leave 75% to have to deal with inflation they can't keep up with and will end up turning them into slaves unable to save money for retirement and instead all of this wealth gets gobbled up and sent to global elites. We are seeing this with almost 40% of all properties for sale being bought up by investment groups that jack the rents up sky high forcing people into a situation where there wealth is spent keeping a roof over their heads instead of building wealth for themselves.

Either something changes quick, or we're gonna see investments crash and a great depression hit if we don't get that mfer that is in office into a nursing home where he belongs.
 
Misinformation is the greatest threat this nation has ever faced. That will become clear to all within the next several years. Never mind my opinion.

Nobody has been a bigger purveyor of disinformation and propoganda than the US government Paul.

It has already become clear as day for anybody who's been paying attention.
 
I'm not going to try to debunk every every election fraud claim. If someone believe that there is bamboo in the paper ballots or if a couple thousand people supposedly had their phones pinged which somehow proves election fraud, I doubt they would ever believe anything I have to say.

One thing I have no doubt about is their sincerity. They actually believe what they hear and read. That will take us all to a very dark place.

Trump claimed election fraud in 2016 when he technically won although he lost by several million votes. Was it a mystery to anyone that he would completely meltdown if he lost? Which he did by many millions.

I consider myself a Reagan Republican, but there is no way in hell I would support any trump sycophant even if it meant putting Maxine Waters in the Whitehouse as Truely fucked up as that would be, but I think it would be the less destructive choice.

We all know you hate Trump Paul.

It's okay. We're past that. You've got your reasons. We respect that.

But legitimate footage of ballot box stuffing, chain of custody violations and illegal harvesting cannot be considered "misinformation" by a sane reasonable person. It either happened, or it didn't. And video footage proof is as good as it gets.

You could argue that the evidence of fraud that exists does not equate to a difference in the outcome of the election. And you could make that argument in good faith, because nobody knows for sure.

But saying "no evidence exists" is disingenuous at the best, and just plain delusionally dishonest at the worst.

Now, not believing what you hear and read is one thing. But denying what you can see clearly is another.
 
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Nobody has been a bigger purveyor of disinformation and propoganda than the US government Paul.

It has already become clear as day for anybody who's been paying attention.
I'm not going to defend propaganda that our government has spread literally my entire life, but I can't say we come in first place in bullshit campaigns.
 
Yes, times are bad right now...I was a little kid during the 60s...our society was a mess that decade... assassinations, riots, Vietnam, protests...things could be worse...
 
Yes, times are bad right now...I was a little kid during the 60s...our society was a mess that decade... assassinations, riots, Vietnam, protests...things could be worse...

Good point. Political turmoil is certainly nothing new in America.

But in the 1960s and 1970s that chaos and violence was primarily carried out by frustrated and marginalized people who had exhausted thier capabilities to address their concerns inside the system. They had no corporate endorsements or backing from any major political party.

The black Panthers was a street movement. The nation of Islam a prison movement. MLK was Christian led human rights movement.

All motivated to unite and move against the state establishment to address common grievances.

Today's movements are different. Today's activists are not poor marginalized people. They're college educated and university trained PAID political activists. They're not moving against the establishment. They moving ON BEHALF OF it. They're not going against oppressive corporate governance, they're PROMOTING it. The ones in the streets, They're not poor marginalized workers or children of frustrated working class families.... they're the drug addicted and degenerate children of upper class academics and community leaders.

Today's activists are funded by corporate America. They're promoted and organized by primarily left wing democrat party special interests groups and NGOs.

So yes, I agree that political upheaval is a part of American history.

But this time it's different. We've never seen this before in America. This is new to us. This is Venezuela, Iran, Soviet block type stuff here.
And we had better wise up to it...and fast.
 
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Nobody has been a bigger purveyor of disinformation and propoganda than the US government Paul.

It has already become clear as day for anybody who's been paying attention.
The problem is everyone seems to hold to a particular view dogmatically.

Dogmatic ways of thinking are the real problem, instead of viewing everything as indeterminate, no right answer, no right belief, but instead just a point of view(s).

You should be able to question everything. You should be able to argue against any ideology or belief.

The elites have set up a system where there are certain things you're not allowed to question and people are doing what they can to rebel by coming up with bullshit meaningless ways to express their discontent.

Every law, every rule, every moral code should regularly be up for debate because at the end of the day everything has been pulled out of someones ass and that's all anything in our nation is, just a collection of opinions.

We need to teach this stuff in school, how to completely deconstruct the very ideas that this nation sits on before we get to the point where it boils over in revolution and a civil war is started because no one is allowed to argue against horseshit.
 
The problem is everyone seems to hold to a particular view dogmatically.

Dogmatic ways of thinking are the real problem, instead of viewing everything as indeterminate, no right answer, no right belief, but instead just a point of view(s).

You should be able to question everything. You should be able to argue against any ideology or belief.

The elites have set up a system where there are certain things you're not allowed to question and people are doing what they can to rebel by coming up with bullshit meaningless ways to express their discontent.

Every law, every rule, every moral code should regularly be up for debate because at the end of the day everything has been pulled out of someones ass and that's all anything in our nation is, just a collection of opinions.

We need to teach this stuff in school, how to completely deconstruct the very ideas that this nation sits on before we get to the point where it boils over in revolution and a civil war is started because no one is allowed to argue against horseshit.
I agree.

For example

You're reference to that group being overrepresented in positions of power has certainly been noted before and the reasons debated endlessly.
The fact that it's a taboo to discuss doesn't help the matter at all. In fact, it makes it worse.

They're not exclusive to idea of ethnic superiority though. Most peoples have that to some degree.

At the end of the day, it's just as likely that they culturally gravitate to those types of occupational endeavors and positions the same way other people gravitate to engineering and mechanics or agriculture and there is no conspiracy driving the trend.

But since we're not allowed to be truthful about the facts, nor honest about the circumstances, projections and speculation happens in secret. Hostilities manifest and animosities grow.

Those people are probably the richest people in the world by representation among the world's elite. And yet you have poor Americans sending small amounts of money they cannot afford overseas to "help suffering *blank*".

And we're not supposed to talk about it.

That's not freedom of thought or expression. Everything should be questioned
 
I agree.

For example

You're reference to that group being overrepresented in positions of power has certainly been noted before and the reasons debated endlessly.
The fact that it's a taboo to discuss doesn't help the matter at all. In fact, it makes it worse.

They're not exclusive to idea of ethnic superiority though. Most peoples have that to some degree.

At the end of the day, it's just as likely that they culturally gravitate to those types of occupational endeavors and positions the same way other people gravitate to engineering and mechanics or agriculture and there is no conspiracy driving the trend.

But since we're not allowed to be truthful about the facts, nor honest about the circumstances, projections and speculation happens in secret. Hostilities manifest and animosities grow.

Those people are probably the richest people in the world by representation among the world's elite. And yet you have poor Americans sending small amounts of money they cannot afford overseas to "help suffering *blank*".

And we're not supposed to talk about it.

That's not freedom of thought or expression. Everything should be questioned
Everything and everyone has to be questioned.

We have a nasty habit of allowing small groups to rule us, of putting our faith in a leader and we need to realize this is extremely dangerous and it needs to end, we gotta wake people up to the fact that most seeking power and influence are sociopaths, from your local and national politicians, to the priests that screws kids in his spare time to the endless organizations set up to funnel money into the pockets of a tiny cult that view themselves as special and above the rest of us.
 
So the question is not who won, who we vote for or not. The question is, what is the place to be falsification of votes. And this means that it is likely that our choice is being manipulated. This leads to the decline of the state and the honesty of free choice.
 
The more important point is that we have to do away with the ability for one man or women or a group of them to sabotage this country.

There has to be a recall vote option that can be held at any time nationally that allows us to remove a president and all cabinet members. And this power is to be fully in the hands of the citizens each year, there needs to be a national recall vote to decide if we keep or fire a sitting president.

The ability to crush a country in the hands of a few people shouldn't be tolerated. It's obvious that Biden and his minions and the traitors in his administration are actively doing their best to do as their globalist masters want to bring this country to it's knees.

And also enough with these old fuckers that suddenly become benevolent and offer the riches of our country to the world because these old fucks know their gonna be dead when the chickens come home to roost.

Old people a few years from death should be heard, but they should have absolutely no leadership roles as their decisions don't effect them in the future because their future is over.
 
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I realize this is a very heated topic. I just want to add some objective analysis here. First off I want to say you are free to think whatever time want about the election fraud that did or did not happen.

However, this movie is NOT a quality source of information. Of you want to read into the actual results of a true investigation into voter fraud, you can check this out. Here it is in an article from The Hill, which is more of right-wing news source. It may not confirm your preexisting believes and tell you what you want to hear...but it was a well done, thorough analysis on the issue, unlike this movie.

However, just the premise alone of this "documentary" has SERIOUS issues.

I urge people on both sides, whenever they see an article or a new movie or piece of media making a claim on either side, but especially regarding something they believe in are are subject to confirmation bias for, to PLEASE, PLEASE, BACK AWAY from your personal beliefs and try to analyze it objectively.

Ask questions, such as:
- Does the maker of this media have an agenda? In this case, yes, very much so.

- How severe are their claims? Is the evidence they provide (if any) up to the caliber required to back up the severity of their claims?

- How large is this conspiracy? We all know that the more people involved in a conspiracy the more likely at least one of them is to come forth regarding the crimes.

- Are there things that don't make sense or are too much of a stretch or simply not possible with modern technology?
- In this case they said they bought $2 million worth of ANONYMIZED cellphone geolocation data based off of cell tower pings (and possible some that had their location service on). Location service on is best case scenario and even that can only track a device within a few meters...but cell phone pings are not a reliable method of tracking location at all. This is well proven and essentially that portion of the dataset would be useless. I work in IT and I can tell you this from personal experience, if they try to tell you they gleaned useful info from cell tower ping data, they are absolutely, 100% LYING, which is obviously extremely concerning, given the gravity of the claims they're making and trying to support.
- Additionally, they said they bought anonymized data. But later in the doc they say they filtered out people whose "pattern of life" caused them to frequent the location normally. However, how the hell would they reliably do this if the data they had was anonymized? Especially with these ballot boxes being in already busy areas, there's simply no good way to actually tie a specific person to their anonymized data. Doing so would take hundreds and hundreds of hours of work--not including the supposed investigation into their "pattern of life". I just really struggle to believe that this information, which the entire "documentary" hinges upon, is accurate enough or good enough.
- There is absolutely no evidence of any payments being given to anyone here, which is a key aspect of this conspiracy.

So overall, this entire documentary will not actually provide you with any NEW information regarding this topic. It essentially appears to be almost entirely smoke and mirrors. In my opinion the only people who will consume (and especially pay for) it and believe it are those who already believe the election fraud conspiracy anyway. It is simply meant to play off your confirmation bias.

So if you believe in the election fraud, just go ahead and believe it. But buying this movie is a total waste of your money and watching it is a total waste of your time. It simply is too poorly done to be of any value for anyone.

Let me go ahead and share a well done fact check on the movie: Fact-checking ‘2000 Mules,’ the movie alleging ballot fraud

I wouldn't normally cite Wikipedia, but they do a good job summarizing the fact check: 2000 Mules - Wikipedia

Taken from the article:
"The film presented a single anonymous witness who said she saw people picking up what she "assumed" to be payments for ballot collection in Arizona; no evidence of payments was presented in any of the other four states." (MFAAS: so what? they could only find ONE PERSON who was a "witness"? and the best they could say is that they "assumed" people picked up payments for ballot collection?? LMAO good luck getting that to hold up in court!!)

That is pathetic. If I were asserting widespread multi-state election fraud involving thousands upon thousands of people, I would try to include more than one extremely weak personal anecdote.

There is also absolutely nothing to even link the people he shows in the videos at the ballot boxes to the people in the data set that he tracked via cell tower ping data (which is EXTREMELY INNACURATE).

I'm sorry but there simply isn't any actual legitimate evidence of fraud, aside from the well done investigation/report I shared at the beginning for the post

Back to the article:
"...experts say cellphone location data, even at its most advanced, can only reliably track a smartphone within a few meters — not close enough to know whether someone actually dropped off a ballot or just walked or drove nearby.

“You could use cellular evidence to say this person was in that area, but to say they were at the ballot box, you’re stretching it a lot,” said Aaron Striegel, a professor of computer science and engineering at the University of Notre Dame. “There’s always a pretty healthy amount of uncertainty that comes with this.”

What’s more, ballot drop boxes are often intentionally placed in busy areas, such as college campuses, libraries, government buildings and apartment complexes — increasing the likelihood that innocent citizens got caught in the group’s dragnet, Striegel said.

Similarly, there are plenty of legitimate reasons why someone might be visiting both a nonprofit’s office and one of those busy areas. Delivery drivers, postal workers, cab drivers, poll workers and elected officials all have legitimate reasons to cross paths with numerous drop boxes or nonprofits in a given day.

True the Vote has said it filtered out people whose “pattern of life” before the election season included frequenting nonprofit and drop box locations. But that strategy wouldn’t filter out election workers who spend more time at drop boxes during the election season, cab drivers whose daily paths don’t follow a pattern, or people whose routines recently changed.

In some states, in an attempt to bolster its claims, True the Vote also highlighted drop box surveillance footage that showed voters depositing multiple ballots into the boxes. However, there was no way to tell whether those voters were the same people as the ones whose cellphones were anonymously tracked.

A video of a voter dropping off a stack of ballots at a drop box is not itself proof of any wrongdoing, since most states have legal exceptions that let people drop off ballots on behalf of family members and household members.

For example, Larry Campbell, a voter in Michigan who was not featured in the film, told The Associated Press he legally dropped off six ballots in a local drop box in 2020 — one for himself, his wife, and his four adult children
. And in Georgia, Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger’s office investigated one of the surveillance videos circulated by True the Vote and said it found the man was dropping off ballots for himself and his family."


Best wishes to everyone. I just hate to see people fall victim to such shittily made media as this. The only fraud going on here is this "documentary" and the claims it makes.
 
We absolutely do need to overhaul how our elections works. ESPECIALLY on the mail-in side. We should be getting a receipt that says who we voted for or something. We should be getting something confirming that our vote was counted.

Regardless, as every single legitimate investigation into the subject has ever found: widespread voter fraud simply isn't a thing. It just doesn't happen and did not happen and was not part of the 2020 election.
 
We absolutely do need to overhaul how our elections works. ESPECIALLY on the mail-in side. We should be getting a receipt that says who we voted for or something. We should be getting something confirming that our vote was counted.

Regardless, as every single legitimate investigation into the subject has ever found: widespread voter fraud simply isn't a thing. It just doesn't happen and did not happen and was not part of the 2020 election.
Just do away with ballot boxes.

There's no reason to have them, we can come up with something better and more secure.

That said it's time for us to exercise the will of the people and not of those sitting in positions of power.

Enough is enough of this nonsense. The Constitution doesn't allow for a recall of a sitting president and its representatives and that's why the Constitution isn't worth a squirt of piss.

James Madison said it best that the prime responsibility of this fucked up Government is to protect the Opulent Minority from the poor majority......that you the average Joe have absolutely no right to live and your masters will determine if you have the right to live or not based on the labor market and assets bought up and resold to enslave you. Madison warned that those getting fucked in the ass would be obsessed with leveling the playing field and that was the greatest danger because that threatened these mfer's that are gobbling up everything in their pursuit to own us outright. Madison saw that the greatest danger would be if citizens no longer slaved and toiled without question, but demanded a more equal share of the blessings of this country.

Either remove these assholes from power or they'll get removed the other way which won't be a fun time for the rich arrogant that run our endless financial scams.

Like I said, the Constitution was and is created to fuck us all in the ass. Just like the vast libraries of law are designed to crush every expression of freedom, like a game of whack-o-mole.
 
Not a popular position in the GOP. I couldn't agree with you more.
Sure the wealthy classes today as they were in the time of Madison or shortly after became the tools and tyrants of government.

Meanwhile the masses were intoxicated and distracted with religion created by a bunch of evil fucks living in a piss ant part of the middle east. Thomas Paine tried to warn people not to worship the Yahweh God, but to instead laugh at it and the people who created this ideology, but Americans just can't shake off their slave morality and suppression of their natural human desire and will. So instead they not only quietly tolerate there oppressors, they open the door and welcome them in.
 
I realize this is a very heated topic. I just want to add some objective analysis here. First off I want to say you are free to think whatever time want about the election fraud that did or did not happen.

However, this movie is NOT a quality source of information. Of you want to read into the actual results of a true investigation into voter fraud, you can check this out. Here it is in an article from The Hill, which is more of right-wing news source. It may not confirm your preexisting believes and tell you what you want to hear...but it was a well done, thorough analysis on the issue, unlike this movie.

However, just the premise alone of this "documentary" has SERIOUS issues.

I urge people on both sides, whenever they see an article or a new movie or piece of media making a claim on either side, but especially regarding something they believe in are are subject to confirmation bias for, to PLEASE, PLEASE, BACK AWAY from your personal beliefs and try to analyze it objectively.

Ask questions, such as:
- Does the maker of this media have an agenda? In this case, yes, very much so.

- How severe are their claims? Is the evidence they provide (if any) up to the caliber required to back up the severity of their claims?

- How large is this conspiracy? We all know that the more people involved in a conspiracy the more likely at least one of them is to come forth regarding the crimes.

- Are there things that don't make sense or are too much of a stretch or simply not possible with modern technology?
- In this case they said they bought $2 million worth of ANONYMIZED cellphone geolocation data based off of cell tower pings (and possible some that had their location service on). Location service on is best case scenario and even that can only track a device within a few meters...but cell phone pings are not a reliable method of tracking location at all. This is well proven and essentially that portion of the dataset would be useless. I work in IT and I can tell you this from personal experience, if they try to tell you they gleaned useful info from cell tower ping data, they are absolutely, 100% LYING, which is obviously extremely concerning, given the gravity of the claims they're making and trying to support.
- Additionally, they said they bought anonymized data. But later in the doc they say they filtered out people whose "pattern of life" caused them to frequent the location normally. However, how the hell would they reliably do this if the data they had was anonymized? Especially with these ballot boxes being in already busy areas, there's simply no good way to actually tie a specific person to their anonymized data. Doing so would take hundreds and hundreds of hours of work--not including the supposed investigation into their "pattern of life". I just really struggle to believe that this information, which the entire "documentary" hinges upon, is accurate enough or good enough.
- There is absolutely no evidence of any payments being given to anyone here, which is a key aspect of this conspiracy.

So overall, this entire documentary will not actually provide you with any NEW information regarding this topic. It essentially appears to be almost entirely smoke and mirrors. In my opinion the only people who will consume (and especially pay for) it and believe it are those who already believe the election fraud conspiracy anyway. It is simply meant to play off your confirmation bias.

So if you believe in the election fraud, just go ahead and believe it. But buying this movie is a total waste of your money and watching it is a total waste of your time. It simply is too poorly done to be of any value for anyone.

Let me go ahead and share a well done fact check on the movie: Fact-checking ‘2000 Mules,’ the movie alleging ballot fraud

I wouldn't normally cite Wikipedia, but they do a good job summarizing the fact check: 2000 Mules - Wikipedia

Taken from the article:
"The film presented a single anonymous witness who said she saw people picking up what she "assumed" to be payments for ballot collection in Arizona; no evidence of payments was presented in any of the other four states." (MFAAS: so what? they could only find ONE PERSON who was a "witness"? and the best they could say is that they "assumed" people picked up payments for ballot collection?? LMAO good luck getting that to hold up in court!!)

That is pathetic. If I were asserting widespread multi-state election fraud involving thousands upon thousands of people, I would try to include more than one extremely weak personal anecdote.

There is also absolutely nothing to even link the people he shows in the videos at the ballot boxes to the people in the data set that he tracked via cell tower ping data (which is EXTREMELY INNACURATE).

I'm sorry but there simply isn't any actual legitimate evidence of fraud, aside from the well done investigation/report I shared at the beginning for the post

Back to the article:
"...experts say cellphone location data, even at its most advanced, can only reliably track a smartphone within a few meters — not close enough to know whether someone actually dropped off a ballot or just walked or drove nearby.

“You could use cellular evidence to say this person was in that area, but to say they were at the ballot box, you’re stretching it a lot,” said Aaron Striegel, a professor of computer science and engineering at the University of Notre Dame. “There’s always a pretty healthy amount of uncertainty that comes with this.”

What’s more, ballot drop boxes are often intentionally placed in busy areas, such as college campuses, libraries, government buildings and apartment complexes — increasing the likelihood that innocent citizens got caught in the group’s dragnet, Striegel said.

Similarly, there are plenty of legitimate reasons why someone might be visiting both a nonprofit’s office and one of those busy areas. Delivery drivers, postal workers, cab drivers, poll workers and elected officials all have legitimate reasons to cross paths with numerous drop boxes or nonprofits in a given day.

True the Vote has said it filtered out people whose “pattern of life” before the election season included frequenting nonprofit and drop box locations. But that strategy wouldn’t filter out election workers who spend more time at drop boxes during the election season, cab drivers whose daily paths don’t follow a pattern, or people whose routines recently changed.

In some states, in an attempt to bolster its claims, True the Vote also highlighted drop box surveillance footage that showed voters depositing multiple ballots into the boxes. However, there was no way to tell whether those voters were the same people as the ones whose cellphones were anonymously tracked.

A video of a voter dropping off a stack of ballots at a drop box is not itself proof of any wrongdoing, since most states have legal exceptions that let people drop off ballots on behalf of family members and household members.

For example, Larry Campbell, a voter in Michigan who was not featured in the film, told The Associated Press he legally dropped off six ballots in a local drop box in 2020 — one for himself, his wife, and his four adult children
. And in Georgia, Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger’s office investigated one of the surveillance videos circulated by True the Vote and said it found the man was dropping off ballots for himself and his family."


Best wishes to everyone. I just hate to see people fall victim to such shittily made media as this. The only fraud going on here is this "documentary" and the claims it makes.

I've seen all of that shit you posted on MSNBC. Almost word for word garbage copy and pasted from some source every bit as biased as you claim the documentary producers are.

Fact of the matter is election fraud happened. Chain of custody laws were broken, ballot harvesting happened, ballot box stuffing happened and it was caught on tape.

You could argue that it would not have changed the outcome, because once that ballot was stuffed, we have no way to track it, so nobody can say for sure what effect it all had.

But denying it happened is just plain stupid.

Besides, forget about ballot harvesting and stuffing Zuckerberg alone for example spent $400m for Democrat activist orgs to take over swing state election offices. Big Tech/media censored stories harmful to Biden, w/help from the intel community. Dem governors used COVID to scam the mail-in ballot system. And I haven’t even gotten to Election Day.
 
Election day, mysterious counting halts in election night.
Moving the counting places after "broken pipes" that we found out later on never happened. Ballot "drops" in the early morning hours, observers banished from counting areas, stacks of ballots confirmed to have counted multiple times.... And the list goes on and on
Everything about the 2020 election was odd. From start to finish.

It's obvious to anyone that fraud happened. The proof is right there on tape. For everyone to see.

You could say, "well it wasn't enough to change the outcome". And who knows, maybe it wasn't. A good faith argument could be made in either case.

But to pretend like fraud didn't happen because the people responsible for conducting the process said so, even though you can see with your own eyes and use your own common sense, is just fucking stupid. Plain stupid.

It's a disingenuous and dishonest argument to make. Reeking of delusional ignorance and denial. Especially when you only howl that shit because the guy you hate was the one who lost.

Just look at the mess we're in now because of it
 
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