Am I the only Female?

[Grizzly]

Caffeine and ephedrine are staples of dieting for me. You can forget the aspirin since it doesn't do anything.

 

[Bob Smith]

Rant over
Thanks for listening.
BH

Woah, slow down there Hoss. I wasnt comparing Figure competition with a regular beauty pagent. What I was getting at is that the older women BBers (Corey Everson, for example) were lean, but nowhere near like what todays BBers are like. I was agreeing with you that those older physiques more closely resemble todays Figure competitors.

 

[buffhottie]

Bob

OKay, I hear ya
The double espresso is worn off now.
Besides, I wasn't really trying to chap your ass. Just getting on my soap box for a minute and talking to the world.
No worries..
BH

 

[hooker]

Besides, I wasn't really trying to chap your ass. Just getting on my soap box for a minute and talking to the world.
No worries..
BH

Let me go on record for saying that any type of competition (be it fitness or figure or whatever) where the majority of contestants wear clear heels ...is fine by me.

 

[MANWHORE]

not incorrect - correct

.. I thought i'd just keep my mouth shut on that one

 

[MANWHORE]

not incorrect - correct

 

[hooker]

Remember: Primobolan, Anavar, Winstrol, etc...are all DHT derivations...

See this study?
It basically says that when you apply DHT to babies with ambiguous sexual organ development, whose genitals haven't fully developed, male sexual development continues.

Oh...wait...and what is virilization? Oh....thats right...it's the development of male sexual characteristics...including...oh...thats right...an enlarged clitoris...

Lancet. 1999 Oct 23;354(9188):1444-5.Related Articles, Links
Invalid Embedded Image Removed
[SIZE=+1]Directed pharmacological therapy of ambiguous genitalia due to an androgen receptor gene mutation.[/SIZE]

Ong YC, Wong HB, Adaikan G, Yong EL.

We report a 46,XY infant with an M807T mutation in his androgen receptor that abrogated cellular responses to testosterone, but not to dihydrotestosterone (DHT), resulting in ambiguous genitalia. Treatment with a topical DHT gel restored male genital development allowing the infant to be reared in accordance with his chromosomal sex.


Gee whiz...it would seem that DHT causes male genitalia to develop. Hmm...lets look at this on the chromosomal level, shall we?

"Transcriptional response of cultured genital fibroblasts to androgen treatment:
We tested the responses of normal and AIS genital fibroblasts to dihydrotestosterone (DHT), under culture conditions similar to those that were reported to produce aromatase induction in these cells Cells were treated with DHT (100-1,000 nM) both at confluency (G0) and during exponential growth, and transcript levels were assessed using DNA microarrays."

Gee, guys...DHT treated genital cells showed exponential growth...hmm...

But where did those genital cells come from? Lets see what the study says:

"Primary cultures of genital fibroblasts were established from genital skin biopsies (labia majora) or gonadal biopsies in female AIS patients"

Hmm...at least some of those cells were from women...and...lets see....what does that mean? Oh right...when you add DHT to female genitals, what do you get? Oh...thats right...exponential growth.

Oh...wait...and what is Anavar and Primobolan? Oh...yeah, they are derived from DHT.

Reference:
Genome Biol. 2003; 4(6): R37.
Published online 2003 May 15. doi: 10.1186/gb-2003-4-6-r37.


But wait, there's more! It would appear that DHT is responsible for physiological development of external genetalia...oh...wait...and what is a clitoris? Thats right. It's external genitalia. Hmmm...and once again, what is Anavar? Right, Derived from DHT. Primobolan? Also derived from DHT.

And what does this study say? Oh...yeah...it seems that DHT masculinizes external genitalia.

Baillieres Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1998 Apr;12(1):17-33.Related Articles, Links

[SIZE=+1]Embryology and endocrinology of genital development.[/SIZE]

Rey R, Picard JY.

National Scientific Research Council (CONICET), Hospital de Ninos, Buenos Aires, Argentina.

In the human male fetus, testes develop by the 7th week and begin to secrete two hormones: anti-mullerian hormone (AMH) induces the regression of mullerian ducts, the anlagen of the uterus, fallopian tubes and upper vagina, upon binding to a specific membrane receptor, whereas testosterone induces the differentiation of the wolffian ducts into the epididymes, vasa deferentia and seminal vesicles. In some target tissues, testosterone is converted to dihydrotestosterone, which is responsible for masculinization of the urogenital sinus and external genitalia. Both androgens act upon binding to the same nuclear receptor. In the absence of AMH and androgen action, or example in the female or in abnormal male differentiation, the internal and external genital primordia differentiate following the female pathway, even in the absence of ovaries. In males, an impaired function of the AMH-dependent pathway results in the persistent mullerian duct syndrome, a disorder characterized by the presence of uterus and fallopian tubes in otherwise normally virilized boys. Several mutations found in the AMH and AMH-receptor genes explain the pathophysiology of this syndrome.

And just to cut off any feeble attempts at saying "those are studies, not real life," I've slept with a girl, who was on Anavar and her clit was enlarged. Real-life enough for ya? And I went down on her 3x, so believe me, I got a good F-ing look.

 

[Deacon]

I wouldnt consider an enlarged clit to be virilization - it often returns to normal after after the cycle is concluded - it takes years of heavy cycling for the clit to stay that way -

I consider virilization to be loss of menstrual cycle, facial hair, lower voice etc.

And I have never put an enlarged clit in the same category as "growing male genitals"

 

[Deacon]

See this study?
It basically says that when you apply DHT to babies with ambiguous sexual organ development, whose genitals haven't fully developed, male sexual development continues.

Oh...wait...and what is virilization? Oh....thats right...it's the development of male sexual characteristics...including...oh...thats right...an enlarged clitoris...

Lancet. 1999 Oct 23;354(9188):1444-5.Related Articles, Links
Invalid Embedded Image Removed
[SIZE=+1]Directed pharmacological therapy of ambiguous genitalia due to an androgen receptor gene mutation.[/SIZE]

Ong YC, Wong HB, Adaikan G, Yong EL.

We report a 46,XY infant with an M807T mutation in his androgen receptor that abrogated cellular responses to testosterone, but not to dihydrotestosterone (DHT), resulting in ambiguous genitalia. Treatment with a topical DHT gel restored male genital development allowing the infant to be reared in accordance with his chromosomal sex.


Gee whiz...it would seem that DHT causes male genitalia to develop. Hmm...lets look at this on the chromosomal level, shall we?

"Transcriptional response of cultured genital fibroblasts to androgen treatment:
We tested the responses of normal and AIS genital fibroblasts to dihydrotestosterone (DHT), under culture conditions similar to those that were reported to produce aromatase induction in these cells Cells were treated with DHT (100-1,000 nM) both at confluency (G0) and during exponential growth, and transcript levels were assessed using DNA microarrays."

Gee, guys...DHT treated genital cells showed exponential growth...hmm...

But where did those genital cells come from? Lets see what the study says:

"Primary cultures of genital fibroblasts were established from genital skin biopsies (labia majora) or gonadal biopsies in female AIS patients"

Hmm...at least some of those cells were from women...and...lets see....what does that mean? Oh right...when you add DHT to female genitals, what do you get? Oh...thats right...exponential growth.

Oh...wait...and what is Anavar and Primobolan? Oh...yeah, they are derived from DHT.

Reference:
Genome Biol. 2003; 4(6): R37.
Published online 2003 May 15. doi: 10.1186/gb-2003-4-6-r37.


But wait, there's more! It would appear that DHT is responsible for physiological development of external genetalia...oh...wait...and what is a clitoris? Thats right. It's external genitalia. Hmmm...and once again, what is Anavar? Right, Derived from DHT. Primobolan? Also derived from DHT.

And what does this study say? Oh...yeah...it seems that DHT masculinizes external genitalia.

Baillieres Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1998 Apr;12(1):17-33.Related Articles, Links

[SIZE=+1]Embryology and endocrinology of genital development.[/SIZE]

Rey R, Picard JY.

National Scientific Research Council (CONICET), Hospital de Ninos, Buenos Aires, Argentina.

In the human male fetus, testes develop by the 7th week and begin to secrete two hormones: anti-mullerian hormone (AMH) induces the regression of mullerian ducts, the anlagen of the uterus, fallopian tubes and upper vagina, upon binding to a specific membrane receptor, whereas testosterone induces the differentiation of the wolffian ducts into the epididymes, vasa deferentia and seminal vesicles. In some target tissues, testosterone is converted to dihydrotestosterone, which is responsible for masculinization of the urogenital sinus and external genitalia. Both androgens act upon binding to the same nuclear receptor. In the absence of AMH and androgen action, or example in the female or in abnormal male differentiation, the internal and external genital primordia differentiate following the female pathway, even in the absence of ovaries. In males, an impaired function of the AMH-dependent pathway results in the persistent mullerian duct syndrome, a disorder characterized by the presence of uterus and fallopian tubes in otherwise normally virilized boys. Several mutations found in the AMH and AMH-receptor genes explain the pathophysiology of this syndrome.

And just to cut off any feeble attempts at saying "those are studies, not real life," I've slept with a girl, who was on Anavar and her clit was enlarged. Real-life enough for ya? And I went down on her 3x, so believe me, I got a good F-ing look.

and I have read this gobbly-gook study three times and still dont think you understood what it said - sure that wasnt a shemale you were going down on?
I seriously dont get the same conclusion as you draw in your examples from that study

 

[hooker]

and I have read this gobbly-gook study three times and still dont think you understood what it said - sure that wasnt a shemale you were going down on?
I seriously dont get the same conclusion as you draw in your examples from that study

Yeah. You need to be able to find a girls clit first, in order to know if it's enlarged. Anyway, she's a Mod/Vet from the boards, and all the geeks (read: other mods and vets) flirt with her when she posts pics. Anyway, I think she's beautiful....but....whatever.


Right. Thats why I'm paid to write about anabolics and you aren't.

 

[Deacon]

your funny kid - I was sniffing and playing with clits before you were born - and who is paying you to write about anabolics? Or do you mean your book you like to brag about?
Whatever.

Bottom line is that all steroids can cause an enlargened clit in a female user - but primo and var are still the safest choices for female users.

 

[Deacon]

Yeah. You need to be able to find a girls clit first, in order to know if it's enlarged. Anyway, she's a Mod/Vet from the boards, and all the geeks (read: other mods and vets) flirt with her when she posts pics. Anyway, I think she's beautiful....but....whatever.


all the geeks (read; other mods and vets)

no wonder you are so popular across the boards

 

[hooker]

and who is paying you to write about anabolics? Or do you mean your book you like to brag about?
Whatever.

Yeah....I wrote a book that's being sold on this site. And...here's a hot tip:

I don't write for free.

Anything you've read by me -the Aromasin article on this site, the PCT article, m,y articles for T-Nation, the profiles on Steroid.com- I got paid to write. And yeah, the book.

This is my job. As for "popular across the boards" it doesn't matter to me. The people I'm not popular with are generally Vets/Mods. And guess what? They don't pay my bills...but they do copy my work and post it on their boards. Even the people who "don't like me" copy my work.

Popular? My work is popular. It's on every major board on the internet, from here to 'ology, to Elite, to Steroid.com to BB.com...there is a profile or article I've written on EVERY MAJOR BOARD ON THE NET? Does that make me popular? How many boards is your work on? Stuff you've written? Where can it be found? ON every major board on the 'net? No...nowhere. go be popular...I'd rather be respected for my ability to write about AAS than because I'm nice or I'm a Vet (joke) or a mod (bigger joke).

 

[Grizzly]

no wonder you are so popular across the boards

LOL I was just thinking to myself, "oooooooohhhh, so this is why I've heard the things I have."

 

[buffhottie]

All...righty then..

This is fascinating. I am still up in the air on the Anivar but I have gotten quite an education here. Very interesting indeed.

I would like to just examine someone who has done it for awhile. You know, get up close and look for stubble. Pay close attention to the voice, get out the surgical gloves and just take a peek at how the downstairs is holding up.
Ask interview questions like "Are you still attracted to men?"

Unfortunately, that is unlikely happen so I will continue my research. I have gone 11 years without it, so no need to be in a rush, I suppose.

BH

 

[Deacon]

Women and AAS

CREDIT FOR THIS WONDERFUL AND INFORMATIVE POST GOES TO MY FRIEND NG:


Women and AAS: what it CAN and CAN'T DO
This is a must read for newbies. And a must read for any woman in fitness who considers herself beyond the "average" gym goer and wants to push past a plateau to build nice quality muscle.

What you think is a clean diet may indeed be one as compared to most Americans however a fitness "clean" diet is so hard to maintain. Even the most celebrated fitness model or competitor cannot keep her bodyfat as low as competition time...it is just not doable nor healthy for the long term.

What you consider a good cardio or good training regmine -- may be that way as compared to others you see day in and day out at the gym however for the body you want that stands out, sacrifices need to be made BEFORE you even consider a cycle of anabolic steriods.

What AAS will NOT do for a women:

1. It will not, after one cycle, make you the hottest thing in a bikini. It will not make you Monica Brant, Jill Mills, Lenda Murray (or any fitness model -- you fill in the name).

2. It will not burn fat.

3. IT WILL NOT BURN FAT...cannot stress this enough.

4. It will NOT lean you out, nor cut you up.

5. It will NOT TONE you -- and please remove the word "tone" from your vocabulary if you are serious about fitness.



What AAS will do for most women:

1. Add a modest amount of strength.

2. Build some muscle ..... overall muscle size as opposed to defined muscle (I will address this later). It will take more than 1 or 2 or even 3 cycles before you get to your desired goal -- perhaps not even to your goal.

3. AAS will cause a positive change to your body however unlikely to be a permanent change without followup cycling or incredibly stringent dieting and training. Meaning that once your cycle is over, by and large after your body releases the chemicals and cleanses itself, it will indeed bring your body back to its previous state. YOU WILL retain some muscle (called keepable gains) if you were eating well all along before, during and after your cycle and continue to do so, but the lasting hardness and loss of estrogenic fat will return. Your body composition will become more soft (this does not mean fat) after the cycle is over.

4. AAS will indeed cause you to become MORE critical of how you look. And therefore be less satisifed with what you see in the mirror. It is a mind game for sure and some people (men and women included become mentally addicted to it).

5. AAS, even the least androgenic of sorts, will cause sides such as, but not limited to: compromised HDL/LDL levels, increased blood pressure, breast shrinkage, loss of menses, water weight gain, dry scalp, oily skin, hair loss, enlarged or sensitive clitoris, voice changes (starting with raspiness and going further into deepness), coarser hair, increased hair growth (everywhere), darkening of previously light/blonde body hair. These are just a few. And don't think or believe for one minute that more hair or a deeper voice won't bother you -- it will ... especially if you have not gotten what you expected from your cycle. The cost analysis - "risk vs. return factor" may not be in your favor (results vs. sides).

AND I SHOULD MENTION, the chemical changes that can occur to your supply of ovum. There is no data as to how AAS will harm a yet to be concieved baby (i.e., birth defects).


I will say that AAS can be a useful tool in pushing through a muscle building plateau but only if every other avenue has been exhausted. It is by no means a quick fix or even a guarantee. For us hardgainers who push more weight than alot of women natural and have a hard time putting on muscle, AAS can help.

Now -- back to overall muscle vs. defined muscle. Overall muscle is muscle you gain during a cycle. Defined muscle is that muscle AFTER you diet down (cutting). It is very rare for a male (doable but rare) to be able to bulk and lose bodyfat at the same time....which of course, makes it that much harder for a woman to achieve both succuessfully.

In order to build muscle (whether using roids or NOT) is being able to EAT to build muscle. Usually, one will need to eat for mass but inherently bodyfat will be a given so as not to cheat your body from the necessary nutrients for effective and successful muscle building. Cardio done too often and too strenuosly while trying to build robs the energy your body needs for muscle building and repair.

In order to get that muscle to show, you will need to diet down. This requires a calorie deficit to help lose fat while making sure not to sacrifice too many protein calories (so you can keep more muscle). Most often, along with fat, you will lose some muscle.
Now there is some success with dieting down and taking AAS to help preserve that muscle however it works for some women but not all...and even so, you still need diet to lose fat -- there is NO MAGIC PILL.

And let me add in addition to dieting, cardio is the only other tool for fat loss. Not easy cardio .... but sweat breaking, chest heaving, side-stitch, "I think am going to die" types of cardio in shorter bursts. Long easy cardio is great for cardiovascular health but not all that effective at burning fat and not muscle. Sprints or intervals are great explosive bouts of cardio to help burn off fat and not disturb too much muscle mass.

I am sure after I post this, I will have forgotten a key element. However when the mods here ask for your background and diet and try to steer you away from AAS as a first choice -- it is not that we are trying to be unhelpful nor to convince you that a cycle is for only the elite of athletes, but too often young women opt for a cycle and end up with terrible sides, lasting compromises and adding muscle over fat which produces are more stocky look. All of that can be avoided with research, asking questions, doing your homework and talking to women who care and have had experiences with it. Too many boards are filled with -- "this is what my boyfriend told me to do -- now what?" -- types of threads.

Men try to be helpful but what works for them is so far and away different than what works for us. So please, the dude at the gym that tells you deca is great and hit yourself with 150 mgs a week ....is not telling you the whole story, when it comes to a woman.

For details on dieting, we have a forum dedicated to that, post your daily intake and ask for a critique. Be ready for some honesty......you would be surprised how many healthy eaters can go astray (me included). I believe kel has a really post in there as does Torchy with some guidelines. I even think Nubian Beauty put together a cutting cycle for someone recently. Hardbodygrl has her diet down to a science. Everyone reacts a bit differently but be honest with yourself about how your daily diet varies from these -- very often little tweaks make big pay offs in the figure.

 

[hooker]

LOL I was just thinking to myself, "oooooooohhhh, so this is why I've heard the things I have."

Hey...I noticed you are a mod at Outlaw. Are you talking about when you heard this:

http://www.outlawmuscle.com/forum/printthread.php?t=5081

Is that what you mean? You've read my work, because it was good enough to be reposted where you are a mod and tons of other places? Is that what you heard?


I guess you have me at a disadvantage....I've never heard of you...nothing you've ever written or said has been reposted anywhere I've been.

 

[Deacon]

Yeah....I wrote a book that's being sold on this site. And...here's a hot tip:

I don't write for free.

Anything you've read by me -the Aromasin article on this site, the PCT article, m,y articles for T-Nation, the profiles on Steroid.com- I got paid to write. And yeah, the book.

This is my job. As for "popular across the boards" it doesn't matter to me. The people I'm not popular with are generally Vets/Mods. And guess what? They don't pay my bills...but they do copy my work and post it on their boards. Even the people who "don't like me" copy my work.

Popular? My work is popular. It's on every major board on the internet, from here to 'ology, to Elite, to Steroid.com to BB.com...there is a profile or article I've written on EVERY MAJOR BOARD ON THE NET? Does that make me popular? How many boards is your work on? Stuff you've written? Where can it be found? ON every major board on the 'net? No...nowhere. go be popular...I'd rather be respected for my ability to write about AAS than because I'm nice or I'm a Vet (joke) or a mod (bigger joke).

my rep on the boards stands for itself - and I dont need to brag about it - apparently you feel the need too
I dont care to get into insults here with you or anyone else - but posting studies up that no one can understand does not make you an expert or even knowledgable on the subject - anyone can copy and paste

what I would like to see is what kind of cycle or chem you would advise the young lady who asked this question to use then? With all of your experience and all?
Or does she have to pay for that info?

 

[Grizzly]

I guess you have me at a disadvantage....I've never heard of you...nothing you've ever written or said has been reposted anywhere I've been.

LOL There it is. The wonderful personality to which I was referring. Mainly in regards to a certain Admins newfound dislike of you and, from a personal perspective, to your advice to a source on who not to front due to the fact that he wasn't high profile enough for your tastes.

But don't worry, it's alright to be an asshole. If it wasn't, I'd have been kicked off of here a long time ago.

 

[hooker]

my rep on the boards stands for itself - and I dont need to brag about it - apparently you feel the need too
I dont care to get into insults here with you or anyone else - but posting studies up that no one can understand does not make you an expert or even knowledgable on the subject - anyone can copy and paste

what I would like to see is what kind of cycle or chem you would advise the young lady who asked this question to use then? With all of your experience and all?
Or does she have to pay for that info?

I don't respect reps or titles. I respect people. And on AAS boards, I respect them for AAS knowledge.

I understand them. And I told you what they mean. DHT is the primary androgen responsible for external genital enlargement, and it's also responsible for development of many male sexual characteristics.

Not at all.
I was simply disputing a claim you made, which was:

var and or primo is the best for women as it does not cause them to turn into men or enlarge their clits

But really even a cursory understanding of the derivation of both of those steroids would reveal that either can enlarge a woman's clitoris. Generally the enlargement is just a swelling, and often goes away. But your post reveals a general lack of understanding of DHT and it's function in the body, or possibly the origin of those steroids (or both). I was just disputing a claim you made, and when asked for proof, I provided it, in the form of studies and personal experience.

I am not totally comfortable giving advice to women right now, because I've only worked closely with one on a cycle, and another couple with T3, Clen, and DNP. I simply will not give out advice on this topic without doing hours of research into the area. Most men, however, have no such restraint. Sorry, but there are alot of factors to consider in the research that are aggrivating or mitigating. DHT, for example, is the origin of most steroids that women are told to use (*Primo, Var, Winny). But since anabolic/ androgenic ratio is determined in male winstar rats, maybe it would be different with women? To determine the anabolic/androgenic ratio, the untrained levator ani is weighed as is the ventral prostate, and then compared to testosterone induced weights (test has a score of 100).

But maybe there are more Androgen Receptors in the Male Levator Ani (or skeletal muscle in general?) than in the Female Levator Ani? Maybe female genetalia is more DHT responsive (or androgen responsive) than the Male ventral prostate? WHo knows...the anabolic/androgenic ratings for most drugs may have nothing to do with how they would act in females. And personally, I am not comfortable with the relative lack of good research on females and anabolics. This is why I don't blithely, cavalierly, or eggregiously give out advice to women. I need to do more real research, and so does everybody, I'm guessing.