Another fat loss advice request...

[Kracken]

I’m a 5ft 6in male, 53 years old at 157 pounds. I do running and cycling but over the past two years I have gained over 15 pounds of ugly fat mostly around my abdomen. I’m currently taking doctor prescribed Clomid, 25mg eod due to T numbers that tested at 325 and 305 in two different blood tests. This was a month ago and I immediately started the Clomid. I have not yet had the follow up blood work. My BP is typically about 115/70. I do cardio three times a week, usually running, and strength training twice per week. I have no health problems beyond the T issue and am on no other meds. A lot of this seems to correlate with a new job that has me commuting over 2.5 hours per day, so less time to train and more time sitting on my ass in the car. Could be a coincidence.

I’m sure you can see where I’m going with this; trying to lose that new fat. My maintenance cals are 1,700 and I have been eating 1,200, and doing this for several months. Nothing seems to change. Normally I would tell someone they are cheating on their calorie intake, but I track mine with MyFitnessPal carefully and while I have an very occasional small cheat I am in deficit. I try to get 45% of my cals from protein and the rest at about 25% each fat and carbs.

I’m very anxious to lose this fat so I can improve my efficiency. So...

Looking over the options, I have concerns about DNP. Less about dying and more about finding a clean source and, even more important, keeping the side effects hidden from my daughter and GF. I don’t want them knowing about any of this. I admit if I could solve those problems I would try it, but maybe a less harsh option first. Two other options seem to be Clen and Albuterol. From what I have read here, it seems that Albuterol is less harsh and as effective as Clen and might even promote strength and endurance.

I read the generic writeup on this site about Albuterol with its dosing recommendations and about what to take with it to keep it effective. It seems that if I use it correctly it could help me lose a pound a week, assuming I eat right and keep up the cardio, with minimum drama. Its also a pill or liquid, which I prefer. And it's a pharm product so if I get it domestically it seems low risk.

I’m wondering if there is a better option I’m not aware of, and if not, whether it would impact the Clomid or vice versa. Also, for a guy my weight is the dosage recommended correct? Any comments about my analysis and suggestions are appreciated, thanks!

 

[Kracken]

I don't understand your aversion to someone pointing out your obvious misunderstandings about how calories work.

It's very simple; your stated 1200 intake calories are less than your 1700 calorie stated maintenance. You should therefore lose weight. Because you don't, it shows up quite clearly that you don't have a handle on the most basic of weight loss concepts.

Eat less than you need to lose weight.

That is diet 101. You could ignore this and take some drugs, but my point is that you will still not lose weight if you don't grasp that fundamental concept. Do you understand what I'm saying? I honestly don't care whether you take as many drugs as you like quite, but you completely ignoring this and instead throwing up strawmans about being 9% etc only serves to detract you from the very basic point.

Eat less than you need to lose weight.

By all means, take your drugs, there is no judgement from me. But you are seeking to lose weight. That won't happen if you don't grasp this 101 fundamental.

I get the math. What I suspect is that my maint level is lower than the formulas predict. I do eat back my exercise calories so theoretically I have a 500 per day deficit. And as I said, I have done this before when I was younger and more lean with great success so I really do understand about subtraction. And I have my food scale and measuring spoons. Everything counts, liquids included but that's almost entirely water. Given it's not working now I'm questioning my actual metabolism, at least as predicted by those formulas.

Also my trainer wants me eating 2,200 per day, I presume on the theory my body will react to not being starved and allow me to build muscle which in turn increases my metabolism. Others have told me that as well but I'm reluctant to try that, because I understand subtraction and exactly what you're saying.

It could also be that since I'm no longer running 25 miles weekly and biking that my metabolism slowed. Plus my age and low T... It's because I do understand what you're telling me that I'm looking for a little boost rather than eating less. I'm not sure I can eat less. I don't want to ask my doc for anything because I don't want to set off alarm bells with him. So I asked here. Thank you all for your replies.

 

[JC456]

I get the math. What I suspect is that my maint level is lower than the formulas predict. I do eat back my exercise calories so theoretically I have a 500 per day deficit. And as I said, I have done this before when I was younger and more lean with great success so I really do understand about subtraction. And I have my food scale and measuring spoons. Everything counts, liquids included but that's almost entirely water. Given it's not working now I'm questioning my actual metabolism, at least as predicted by those formulas.

Also my trainer wants me eating 2,200 per day, I presume on the theory my body will react to not being starved and allow me to build muscle which in turn increases my metabolism. Others have told me that as well but I'm reluctant to try that, because I understand subtraction and exactly what you're saying.

It could also be that since I'm no longer running 25 miles weekly and biking that my metabolism slowed. Plus my age and low T... It's because I do understand what you're telling me that I'm looking for a little boost rather than eating less. I'm not sure I can eat less. I don't want to ask my doc for anything because I don't want to set off alarm bells with him. So I asked here. Thank you all for your replies.

I'm going to be very blunt because I can see you're beginning to be receptive to what i'm saying. So take this in the spirit it's typed, I am trying to help as someone who has coached the very obese to be leaner...

It's highly, highly unlikely your metabolism will be lower than 1200. Highly unlikely.

It is far more likely that you are doing either or both:

1) You just haven't been consistent enough with the 1200 calories per day over a long period of time.

2) You are not counting calories as accurately as you think you are.

That is me being very blunt. You are unlikely to be that much of an outlier, even counting your age and activity that your maintenance is 1200 calories per day or even lower.

By all means go for the boost, I have zero judgement on what supplements you take. However be wary of this, if you are committing a dietary error and I fully believe you are, you will continue to make these errors with the additional boosts. So all you'll get is the stress on the heart/body from taking these fat burners or testosterone and you still won't lose weight as you'll still be over eating or not dieting consistently enough. Therefore this goes back to my first point, getting the basics right is crucial.

Get the basics right first.

Add extras later.

That's the way to do it.

 

[Jeremiahflex]

I'm going to be very blunt because I can see you're beginning to be receptive to what i'm saying. So take this in the spirit it's typed, I am trying to help as someone who has coached the very obese to be leaner...

It's highly, highly unlikely your metabolism will be lower than 1200. Highly unlikely.

It is far more likely that you are doing either or both:

1) You just haven't been consistent enough with the 1200 calories per day over a long period of time.

2) You are not counting calories as accurately as you think you are.

That is me being very blunt. You are unlikely to be that much of an outlier, even counting your age and activity that your maintenance is 1200 calories per day or even lower.

By all means go for the boost, I have zero judgement on what supplements you take. However be wary of this, if you are committing a dietary error and I fully believe you are, you will continue to make these errors with the additional boosts. So all you'll get is the stress on the heart/body from taking these fat burners or testosterone and you still won't lose weight as you'll still be over eating or not dieting consistently enough. Therefore this goes back to my first point, getting the basics right is crucial.

Get the basics right first.

Add extras later.

That's the way to do it.

I think number 2 is probably very common, Quaker steel cut oats depending on which one you buy servings can be 1/4 cup 1/2 cup or 1/3 cup.Easy to make a mistake when counting calories. Always good to re-evaluate our daily intake

 

[Kracken]

Yup, I realized that's what you meant from your earlier posts. I appreciate your candor. I really do. The Clomid is prescribed by my doctor and if he tells me to go to TRT that's what I'll do. I have mixed feelings on it but we'll see when the time comes. Blood work happens Next week.

Adding the extras later may be the the way to do it. I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm sure you're right. But I know how to weigh my food and count my calories. I really have done this before, I didn't make that up.

So, I'm going to try it anyhow, once I finish my research to see how it (whatever I end up trying) will impact or not impact or react with the Clomid. I'll be happy to report the results, good, bad or indifferent, if anyone is interested.

 

[Kracken]

I think number 2 is probably very common, Quaker steel cut oats depending on which one you buy servings can be 1/4 cup 1/2 cup or 1/3 cup.Easy to make a mistake when counting calories. Always good to re-evaluate our daily intake

This. The FDA allows huge errors in reported caloric value on labels and although some people think those errors average out, I don't buy it. Plus having a heaping tbs full of whatever vs leveling it out. Plus the little snack that gets forgotten. Plus people thinking some calories are "free." plus licking the spoon. Plus trusting your fitness tracker to properly tell you how many calories you burned or estimating the cals your run used wrong. All this works to make calorie counting highly unreliable. But it's necessary, more as a baseline than an absolute number. Find what number and meals work. Then adjust from there.

 

[Jeremiahflex]

This. The FDA allows huge errors in reported caloric value on labels and although some people think those errors average out, I don't buy it. Plus having a heaping tbs full of whatever vs leveling it out. Plus the little snack that gets forgotten. Plus people thinking some calories are "free." plus licking the spoon. Plus trusting your fitness tracker to properly tell you how many calories you burned or estimating the cals your run used wrong. All this works to make calorie counting highly unreliable. But it's necessary, more as a baseline than an absolute number. Find what number and meals work. Then adjust from there.

My food is basic and boring I trust the numbers steel cut oats chicken and egg whites. Now if your talking fast food yeah those numbers are wrong because every worker makes a Grilled stuffed burrito different

 

[Kracken]

My food is basic and boring I trust the numbers steel cut oats chicken and egg whites. Now if your talking fast food year those numbers are wrong because every worker make a Grilled stuffed burrito different

Yeah I like to do that too... simple meals like a can of tuna, three tbs miracle whip and two slices of bread is 265 calories and a good bit of protein every time. When eating out or grabbing something pre made there is a problem knowing what's really in there.

I'm not trying to be a stubborn Dick; I just can't eat any less and still be able to work out. I'm sometimes getting light headed in a puny 5k run! I don't want to give up my runs or the gym. I already get too little time for it and Im antsy...

 

[Zee]

Have you considered a thyroid issue?

Or even if it's normal, you might consider T3 for fat loss.

I tried it a few times and it definitely increases your metabolism with very little sides.

As for clen/albuterol... gave me the shakes pretty bad, also your body adapts to these compounds quickly.

 

[Kracken]

Have you considered a thyroid issue?

Or even if it's normal, you might consider T3 for fat loss.

I tried it a few times and it definitely increases your metabolism with very little sides.

As for clen/albuterol... gave me the shakes pretty bad, also your body adapts to these compounds quickly.

The doc said the thyroid tests came back okay, and I had not considered T3 because of what I read here about it being unstable over time, promoting thyroid function suppression and and, also, I'm not clear if it's an injectable, which would suck for daily use. But I would appreciate your comments on these concerns. I used to use a supplement called ThyroTwin which seemed to be effective. Many people told me it would screw up my Thyroid and to limit it to 30 days at a time, which I did. I guess that just kind of scared me away from Thyroid drugs.

 

[Zee]

The doc said the thyroid tests came back okay, and I had not considered T3 because of what I read here about it being unstable over time, promoting thyroid function suppression and and, also, I'm not clear if it's an injectable, which would suck for daily use. But I would appreciate your comments on these concerns. I used to use a supplement called ThyroTwin which seemed to be effective. Many people told me it would screw up my Thyroid and to limit it to 30 days at a time, which I did. I guess that just kind of scared me away from Thyroid drugs.

It's an oral, pill form or liquid.

As far as thyroid suppression, there are several studies of people who were misdiagnosed as hypothyroid, were on synthetic thyroid hormones for years. When they stopped taking them, levels returned to normal after few weeks.

Personally, my trt doc checks my thyroid levels every 12 weeks.

So I run T3 for 8 weeks, then stop for the month before my blood test. My levels always come back normal.

(I'm not advocating you run T3, everyone can react differently, just sharing my experience with it)

 

[Kracken]

It's an oral, pill form or liquid.

(I'm not advocating you run T3, everyone can react differently, just sharing my experience with it)

Oh I do realize and appreciate that. I can do all the research I want but hearing personal experience is very helpful. For example, the writeup here on Salbutamol more or less says that sides are very mild, but many people have posted the opposite. Thanks for explaining that its oral. I just read its profile again more carefully and I see that in there, although not specifically. You raised a great point about my doc... I'm getting blood work in a few days. I should see what the order says besides the test. I had not thought of that.

How do find the sides to be?

 

[Zee]

Oh I do realize and appreciate that. I can do all the research I want but hearing personal experience is very helpful. For example, the writeup here on Salbutamol more or less says that sides are very mild, but many people have posted the opposite. Thanks for explaining that its oral. I just read its profile again more carefully and I see that in there, although not specifically. You raised a great point about my doc... I'm getting blood work in a few days. I should see what the order says besides the test. I had not thought of that.

How do find the sides to be?

Only sides I get are increased hunger, and a slight elevation in body temperature for first 2 weeks. After that it seems to stabilize.

 

[Kracken]

And @Zee you got me thinking. My doc has my test results online so I did some digging and apparently the thyroid test is called "TSH Reflex, High Sensitivity." The normal range is specified to be at 0.350 to 5.500 ulU/ML, an my result is 1.168. So it's in the normal range but just so. According to WebMD, symptoms of under-active thyroid include weight gain and tiredness. Hmmmmm.... I need to ask my doc more about this.

 

[Kracken]

Only sides I get are increased hunger, and a slight elevation in body temperature for first 2 weeks. After that it seems to stabilize.

Excellent, thanks. I'll look into t3 a bit more. How does t4 play in? I see t3 is available with t4 but I can't find any information about proper use of t4 in conjunction with t3 for fat loss.

Before I start anything I think I'll ask my doc about the TSH test and see what he says.

This was a huge help thank you.

 

[Zee]

Excellent, thanks. I'll look into t3 a bit more. How does t4 play in? I see t3 is available with t4 but I can't find any information about proper use of t4 in conjunction with t3 for fat loss.


Before I start anything I think I'll ask my doc about the TSH test and see what he says.

This was a huge help thank you.

Tsh test isn't totally reliable. It is an indirect indicator of thyroid levels.

You can have normal tsh and low T3.

See if he is willing to check T3/t4 levels directly.

 

[Kracken]

Tsh test isn't totally reliable. It is an indirect indicator of thyroid levels.

You can have normal tsh and low T3.

See if he is willing to check T3/t4 levels directly.

Good to know, and I'll do that thanks again.

 

[Zee]

And @Zee you got me thinking. My doc has my test results online so I did some digging and apparently the thyroid test is called "TSH Reflex, High Sensitivity." The normal range is specified to be at 0.350 to 5.500 ulU/ML, an my result is 1.168. So it's in the normal range but just so. According to WebMD, symptoms of under-active thyroid include weight gain and tiredness. Hmmmmm.... I need to ask my doc more about this.

Keep in mind it is a negative feedback system. Tsh signals the thyroid to produce t4/T3. So high levels of T3/t4 will cause low levels of tsh. And vice-versa.

Also the system is further complicated because your thyroid only makes small amount of T3. The majority of the T3 in your body comes from cells converting t4 into T3.

This is the reason people don't self medicate with t4. T4 half life is 4-5 days and T3 is 1 day. It becomes a total guessing game, as you don't know how much of it your body will convert the t4 into T3.

Generic synthetic T3 is called liothyronine, I believe brand name is cytomel.