Anybody watch 60 minutes last night?

[ratmonkey]

and don't forget guys, the good ole u.s. of a. never formally signed on to the geneva convention. we generally follow the guidlines most of the time, but only because we used to, as a nation, have an interest in what the international community thought of us. now it seems that since bush doesn't care about the rest of the planet our forces are free to do as they please when no one too concerned with human rights is looking.

 

[diesldud]

and don't forget guys, the good ole u.s. of a. never formally signed on to the geneva convention. we generally follow the guidlines most of the time, but only because we used to, as a nation, have an interest in what the international community thought of us. now it seems that since bush doesn't care about the rest of the planet our forces are free to do as they please when no one too concerned with human rights is looking.

I knew this was comming. Blame it on Bush right? For a second I thought I was reading the Yahoo news msg boards.

 

[Bob Smith]

now it seems that since bush doesn't care about the rest of the planet...

No, screwing the rest of the planet is what we SHOULD do. How bout instead of helping everyone else on earth, we shut off all foreign aid, both monetary and otherwise. If no one else on earth respects us or wantsto go along with us, fine, youre cut off. No more free money and wasted taxpayer dollars going to some backwoods, shithole 3rd world country that only wants to turn around and kill us. We can cut off all aid to Africa, South America, Asia, and so on. Lets see how well the rest of the world can do without us.

Personally, I think thats a damn good idea. We quit wasting money on people who are opposed to us and we also get to lower or taxes by another few percentage points because of that. Looks like a win-win situation to me.

 

[Rod]

"now it seems that since bush doesn't care about the rest of the planet our forces are free to do as they please when no one too concerned with human rights is looking."

Are forces are free to do as they please? Do you not think that the soldiers will be held accountable? I bet they will. In fact after the 60 min piece, I bet it that it will be hard for them to get a fair trial. I'll bet that their punishment will be excessively harsh.

 

[diesldud]

I wish the Muslim community would speak out about its radical terrorist population with the same kind of outrage that many Americans do about its Leaders and military. It would be nice if 60 Min and the rest of the liberal media would get away from its far left agenda long enough to show all the good we have done for Iraq. The only reason the problems we are having resemble Vietnam are because of the anti war crowd. Like then they are doing everything they can to sabotage our mission, even if it hurts the country they call home. Im not a war guy, I dont like the Fact that people are dying. But I believe the mission in Iraq is necessary and when it is all said and done the world will be a far better place.

 

[ratmonkey]

Are forces are free to do as they please? Do you not think that the soldiers will be held accountable? I bet they will. In fact after the 60 min piece I bet it that it will be hard for them to fair trial. I'll bet that their punishment will be excessively harsh.

and the only reason they got caught was the "whistleblower". if not for him the abuse in this particular case would continue for however long these men and women are stationed in a foreign country.

how many other people are doing the same exact things, but there is no one with that sense of decency to hold them back or report them?

there is just no independent oversight of these people, with the red cross and un not there this kind of thing will continue.

no matter who is in office this kind of thing will happen without other countries and international organizations there to supervise and report on the situations. it just happens to be bush that is telling everyone to fuck off, i'd be saying the same if it was gore or any other president if they handled the situation like this.

yes i do have this low of an opinion of our service men and women, not because i don't like the armed forces, but because i know the people that sign up for this, 4 out of 5 times, don't give a shit about anyone but themselves and are looking to take out their hostilities on any foreigner they can.

 

[diesldud]

but because i know the people that sign up for this, 4 out of 5 times, don't give a shit about anyone but themselves and are looking to take out their hostilities on any foreigner they can.

How the fuck do you know what goes on in other peoples minds? Bro you have made a pretty big statement here, mind backing up your claims with some real information?

 

[oldtimer]

I wish the Muslim community would speak out about its radical terrorist population with the same kind of outrage that many Americans do about its Leaders and military.

FWIW, most of the talk shows on our TV/Radio for the past year talk about this specific issue. It's all over the newspapers and everyone's talking about it (teachers, professors, religious leaders etc.). I don't recall a single day when i didn't hear/read something about these terrorists and how they're destroying our lives. In fact, i was reading the newspaper yesterday and they had a photo of the daughter of one of the police officers who died in the attack we recently had.

Most of you think that those terrorists are a threat to the US, and we're silent coz we don't care, well you're wrong. First, lookup these key words "bombing" and "Saudi Arabia", and see how many we've had in the past ten years. Second, my people are being abused every where because of the bad perception everyone else has, airports, customs, police stations, work place etc.

We are in this together, so stop pointing fingers.

-OT

 

[Skrilla]

I think that what was done to those prisoners was dispicable. But I aslo have to ask myself, what if I was in charge of a bunch of people who just blew up a fellow soldier of mine? I can understand why they did it, but that in no way justifies what they did. I think we all forget that in war, both sides feel that their cause is just. Im sure no one goes into war thinking "well we really arent right but fuck it, lets fight anyway." As much as it may be tempting to think of the other side as scum, we have to remember that they are protecting what THEY think is right. And that being said, who the fuck knows what is right. I sure dont. I just pray for the quickest and peacfull ending to this, no matter who ends up with the bragging rights. BTW this is in no way meant to disrespect any of our soldiers whom I have the utmost respect for.

 

[Bob Smith]

OT, thanks for the updates from that part of the world. There are so few of us in the US that ever get over there or ever learn anything outside of what is shown on American tv or newspapers. Everyone has a bias (not matter what the subject). Unfortunately, I would say that the vast majority of Americans believe exactly what diesledud said simply because there is nothing every reported in the American media that would conflict with his viewpoint. Everything we are shown is a report about how some Muslim cleric wants his congregation to bomb the crap out of embassies, tourists, soldiers, anything even remorely related to the US.

Why is this? Its really early in the morning for me, so I might be a little slow, but I can think of a few reasons. First, its a time of war/major conflict. People wouldnt feel comfortable attacking others if they were shown to be rational, likable people that stood for the same belief in a peaceful existence (unlike the radicals).

Also, the mainstream American media is heavily biased towards the left/liberal side of the spectrum. That side is, and has been for 30+ years, an anti-war crowd. There are very few, if any, reports on our nightly news about new schools being built, women going to work, or other major improvements in the quality of life for Iraqi citizens. By not showing anything positive coming from our work over there, it is fairly easy to turn all news reports into doom and gloom. You see enough bad reports and eventually you begin to think that that is the only way that things are in the part of the world. Good, positive news about advancements doesnt make for good ratings, nor does it support the left's cause of being anti-war and anti-Bush.

Thanks again, OT, for giving some perspective to a small little slice of Westerners. Take care bro. Stay say and keep on with your new marriage!

 

[oldtimer]

OT, thanks for the updates from that part of the world. There are so few of us in the US that ever get over there or ever learn anything outside of what is shown on American tv or newspapers. Everyone has a bias (not matter what the subject). Unfortunately, I would say that the vast majority of Americans believe exactly what diesledud said simply because there is nothing every reported in the American media that would conflict with his viewpoint. Everything we are shown is a report about how some Muslim cleric wants his congregation to bomb the crap out of embassies, tourists, soldiers, anything even remorely related to the US.

Why is this? Its really early in the morning for me, so I might be a little slow, but I can think of a few reasons. First, its a time of war/major conflict. People wouldnt feel comfortable attacking others if they were shown to be rational, likable people that stood for the same belief in a peaceful existence (unlike the radicals).

Also, the mainstream American media is heavily biased towards the left/liberal side of the spectrum. That side is, and has been for 30+ years, an anti-war crowd. There are very few, if any, reports on our nightly news about new schools being built, women going to work, or other major improvements in the quality of life for Iraqi citizens. By not showing anything positive coming from our work over there, it is fairly easy to turn all news reports into doom and gloom. You see enough bad reports and eventually you begin to think that that is the only way that things are in the part of the world. Good, positive news about advancements doesnt make for good ratings, nor does it support the left's cause of being anti-war and anti-Bush.

Thanks again, OT, for giving some perspective to a small little slice of Westerners. Take care bro. Stay say and keep on with your new marriage!

Thanks BS, your words are of much value. I agree with you, the media shows people what they want to see. For example, Al-Jazeera was airing a show on Iraqi children, they begin the show with a child in a wheel chair. What is even more interesting is when you see who runs most of those channels, you realize that the top of the hierarchy is actually the same here and there, and their excuse is that they show each audience what they want to see, don't they know how much damage media is causing?

P.S. We had another bombing today.

-OT

 

[Hogg]

I just noticed a piece on Yahoo News about this issue. It is coming to light very quickly and Bush made a brief statement on Friday. I was unaware that the Frederick story was one of a number of human rights violations. Evidently, there are allegations against the Brits and numerous other US commanders.

On a follow up to Oldtimer's comment about the Saudi's getting shit on over this whole deal, I also read another story wherein saudi security forces killed a group of 4 men who attacked the oil contractor that they worked for.....mind you, talk about a sneaky adversary, three of these men were on the payroll and let the fourth in, then opened fire on the contractors offices killing numerous individuals, they dragged one of the deceased behind their vehicle naked and led saudi anti-terror forces on a high speed pursuit which ended with their death. This is but one of several incidents cited in the article.

As OldTimer said, everybody is affected by these people.

As far as the Israeli/Palestinian issue, as I have stated numerous times, the US should not involve itself. This is a UN issue at best.

 

[Hogg]

One more thing, the Red Cross needs to be allowed in the battle theater otherwise, the world is unaware of atrocities until a whistleblower comes forward. Men will commit vile acts when they are not under the watchful eyes of a non-partisan observer.

 

[MACHI]

....

The majority people understimate the true nature of WAR.....I don't understand why most of you are "shocked".

 

[Hogg]

The majority people understimate the true nature of WAR.....I don't understand why most of you are "shocked".

There is no excuse for violation of human rights. Turn the guns around and gauge your perspective.

 

[boberto]

I missed that show and meant to see it, and I am sure a lot more goes on then was reported in the segment on tv.....sure we probably get the same treatment if we are captured but 2 wrongs don't make a right, kinda like a scammer or a reverse scammer.......neither one has any validity.......

 

[patsfan]

I just noticed a piece on Yahoo News about this issue. It is coming to light very quickly and Bush made a brief statement on Friday. I was unaware that the Frederick story was one of a number of human rights violations. Evidently, there are allegations against the Brits and numerous other US commanders.

On a follow up to Oldtimer's comment about the Saudi's getting shit on over this whole deal, I also read another story wherein saudi security forces killed a group of 4 men who attacked the oil contractor that they worked for.....mind you, talk about a sneaky adversary, three of these men were on the payroll and let the fourth in, then opened fire on the contractors offices killing numerous individuals, they dragged one of the deceased behind their vehicle naked and led saudi anti-terror forces on a high speed pursuit which ended with their death. This is but one of several incidents cited in the article.

As OldTimer said, everybody is affected by these people.

As far as the Israeli/Palestinian issue, as I have stated numerous times, the US should not involve itself. This is a UN issue at best.

I couldnt agree more. The whole reason most of the Muslim population is upset with us is because we help Israel...why...because of the large Jewish population in the states.

There needs to be a real war over there not this car bombing shit so that they can see how really awful war is and how it is something to be avoided at all costs.

Its a shame we get a watered down fox news version of whats going on in the world. I have direct TV and I wish it picked up REAL satellite feeds of world news networks.

The US does alot of good in the world and as BS said maybe we should leave well enough alone and look out for number 1.

Bye the way...who was the moron filming this shit in the first place..can you say evidence.
...not that I condone that behavior.

Pats

 

[dzl66]

60 minutes aired a piece on the treatment of prisoners at the iraqi prison...uh, forgot the name. Anyway, the prison was staffed by a group of perhaps 7 US personnel while holding upwards of 900 prisoners. The story was aired on a 2 week delay by the request of the Defense Department due to some very disturbing pictures that have leaked to the media.

Now, if you have not watched the show last night, you missed out as I cannot regurgitate the entire segment here in text. For those who have watched it, I wanted to compare my thoughts with yours on this issue.

What I found rather unsettling was the fact that the reserve in charge of the facility was a corrections officer in Virginia. Now, mind you, his excuse for the behavior that occurred at the prison was that he was not given direction....I personally have some issues with it as the photos seemed to display behavior that was reminiscent of nazi-like behavior in concentration camps, yet I suppose without the gas and ovens. It seems very odd to me that 7 weekend soldiers could run a prison of 900 inmates without an upheaval, unless perhaps their methods were draconian. We heard the story of dogs being used on inmates, of psychological and physical 'readying' prior to interrogation, and even allegations of an interpreter ragging a teenage male prisoner up the ass.

The photos confirmed that the prisoners were humiliated and we might say "But they are fucking iraqis and deserved it".....that is fine, providing that we do not bitch when a US soldier is captured and has his fingernails pulled off or is beaten mercilessly during interrogation.....I mean, sure, lets all play by the rules right?

Beyond that, the commander of the prison and that dike with the grit hanging out of her mouth looked like the stereotypical redneck white trash that this country allows to breed without measure....I personally see a good reason to legalize abortion and to sanction sterilization in cases where continuation of the lineage will only propagate another generation of illiterate democrats. Anyway, my question is, would you want an idiot like Frederick deciding your fate if you were a prisoner in this scenario? He seemed far less than competent and perhaps one who was easily influenced. The story suggested that the intelligence agencies played him like a puppet all the while keeping their own hands clean. If I said, "Hey, the CIA needs some money for their next covert operation but we have to keep the money secret in the interest of national security, go into that bank with this mini gun and grab a million dollars in cash, I'll cover for you", would you do it? "But the guy from the CIA told me to do it!" But who did it? Ultimately, who robbed the bank? Were it that we could quit claim responsibility for our own actions, I would be a very rich man right now.

It really puzzles me how we can chastize groups such as the nazis and stalin's forces when there are elements in our own military who act no different. We are not a moral and ethical people. If the media is not around to monitor our activities, we default to our true personnas.

The segment concluded with a photo of a man in a body bag which I found very disturbing. I would wager that the man's death was certainly not painless. Now imagine if Al Jazeerah aired a photo of a US serviceman in similar condition. Would the entire country call for annihilation of Iraq? What will happen when the iraqis see these photos?

As I have stated numerous times, the US needs to demobilize from Iraq, take a bit of verbal browbeating from the international community, and allow time to wash the issue away. I fear that similar stories will appear if this conflict continues and we will face a greater backlash from the international community for our failure to conduct ourselves in a respectable manner. It seems that we preach humane treatment of the world's people but act otherwise.

Now I will turn the floor over and sit here and wait for the response of a true patriot, you know, someone with some real intelligence...the type of guy that will respond: "Love it or leave it man, we should fucken nuke those fucken iracki fucken fuckers, god bless all our fucken soldiers man, fucken fuck iraq"

good post bro, I agree with your viewpoint.
I am not a bleeding heart liberal but once a war starts there does not not seems to be any human rights issues adhered to.
But then again it is war...

 

[Massmonster32]

The soldiers themselves should be punished as well. But we have to remember you dont always know what you would do unless you were in their situation. The Iraqis tortured and mutulated alot of American bodies maybe the guards at this camp just kinda reacted without thinking that they are human beings as well. I wouldnt do but I wouldnt stop them so to say just thinking about all our soldiers who were treated worse. MM

 

[bearze34]

It really puzzles me how we can chastize groups such as the nazis and stalin's forces when there are elements in our own military who act no different. We are not a moral and ethical people. If the media is not around to monitor our activities, we default to our true personnas.


My take on this is as follows. We are, in fact, no different than any of these people. We all have empathy for our fellow man, and don't want to kill anyone, unless we are some kind of sicko. The problem is in order to be able to kill as is necessary in war we must dehumanize the enemy. If we saw them as fathers, brothers, workers, etc. we would not be able to do what is necessary. So it is not surprising to see something like this happen. I don't care if the cause is nationalism (Nazi Germany, Japan) freedom, capitalism (U.S.A.), religion (Middle East), the fact is we are driven by these ideals to do what we really do not want to do in order to preserve them. Our concept of capitalism and freedom are a religion as sure as Islam is. I happen to love our way of life and I am surely not criticising it but it is what it is. If you think about it our leaders invest as much time getting us to hate the enemy as the enemy does us. They are portrayed as gutter-dwelling animals who just want to randomly kill while we are the righteous who just do what is necessary to maintain our way of life. At the end of the day we are all the same, we want to be loved, needed and cared for. We want our kids to be well, our friends to be happy and our lives to be orderly. Strip away all of the years of conditioning and that is what you are left with, I guarantee it.