ARBs or ACE Inhibitors for HBP?

JuicyJ

Member
After 18 years of PED use I've dialed in the maintenance and regulation of my important biomarkers to ensure I'm not going to drop prematurely from heart disease and/or the many related cardiac conditions that are killing bodybuilders these days. I work as a coach and have over 20 years of bodybuilding, diet, supplementation, & PED knowledge. I practice responsible AAS use now as I'm older and concerned about the damage Testosterone supplementation has had over the last 16 years. I have a endocrinologist who doesn't understand the lifestyle I live and recommends I quit it all, but I refuse to live like a sheep instead of a lion for the remainder of my life. I started taking Telmisartan a year ago, but from a Chinese site as my doctor wouldn't prescribe it, now I cant get it. Shes finally put me on Hydrochlorothiazide, a mild diuretic to lower the high blood pressure I've been managing for the last 3 years. She wants to start with this, then look at newer ARBs, but I think ACE Inhibitors work better from anecdotal and clinical studies I've read. I know a Diuretic wont cut it as I'm running 3 businesses and live in a high stressful lifestyle. I'm looking for other alternatives than what I already take to see what's worked for others. I'm only running about 400 mg/week of Test, 2 IU/day of HGH, 250 mcg/week of HCG, 6-8 IU/Humalog preworkout, and related ancillaries, plus a number of cardiac promoting supplements like Citrus Bergamot, NAC, Trans-resveratrol, Vit D & K, Ubiquinol, and more antioxidants from biweekly IV Drips. My BP goes upto 170-90/85-95 regularly so is concerning...
 

Attachments

  • AAS - Imgur.jpg
    AAS - Imgur.jpg
    1.1 MB · Views: 67
You cant go wrong with both. ARBs are the newer drug class which cause less sides. About 1/3 of ACEi users get the ace cough, which is kinda high incidence. Yet the other 2/3 are totally fine, so if you feel good at the ACEi there is no need to switch. Both drugs work great, both do the same job.

I tried Ramipril and everything was fine at 5mg. When I went up to 10mg I got the annoying ACEi cough and then stopped and switched to Telmisartan. Since then never had a problem again.
 
Telmisartan/HCTZ combo pill works very well for me. Keeps pressure at 120/75 or lower, and for some reason it works better for me than Losartan did, which is odd because they are both ARB's. Most of the cardiologists I work with prescribe the newer ARB's over ACE inhibitors.
 
Telmisartan/HCTZ combo pill works very well for me. Keeps pressure at 120/75 or lower, and for some reason it works better for me than Losartan did, which is odd because they are both ARB's. Most of the cardiologists I work with prescribe the newer ARB's over ACE inhibitors.
That is not the best medication for a bodybuilder. Telmisartan on its own is fine, but hctz even at only 12,5mg will screw up lipids and blood glucose levels. Since we throw in as many carbs as possible and have already screwed lipids by AAS, its imho best to choose another combination.

Better options are:

Telmisartan
+ Nebivolol
+ Amlodipine
+ Tadalafil
 
Telmisartan/HCTZ combo pill works very well for me. Keeps pressure at 120/75 or lower, and for some reason it works better for me than Losartan did, which is odd because they are both ARB's. Most of the cardiologists I work with prescribe the newer ARB's over ACE inhibitors.
I chose Telmisartan from Derek/more plates more dates' information, I just cant get my doctor to prescribe it, so was buying from China. Its a pain in the ass to get consistently
 
I'm prescribed a CCB, Amlodipine Besylate, a Dihydropyridine Calcium Channel Blocker.
I take 5mg ED.
I get raw Telmisartan, an ARB, and take low dose 20mg ED

I run Amlodipine on blast when blood pressure creeps.
 
I'm prescribed a CCB, Amlodipine Besylate, a Dihydropyridine Calcium Channel Blocker.
I take 5mg ED.
I get raw Telmisartan, an ARB, and take low dose 20mg ED

I run Amlodipine on blast when blood pressure creeps.
Its one of my favorits. Really effective at lowering blood pressure. Also comes with almost no down sides.
 
I'd say you need a new doctor. HCTZ is not a suitable first line antihypertensive for anyone, bodybuilders in particular. Here are my thoughts on antihypertensives for this community, thank you to @Ghoul who turned me on to cilnidipine as I was completely unaware of it being off the USA formulary (not worth US Pharma paying off FDA to get it approved since they won't be able to make a fortune with exclusive sales, sad but true).

My first line is ARB; while ACE inhibitors have the same ultimate end effect, they work indirectly and can produce the infamous cough - their ACE target enzyme is found in the lungs, while the ultimate AT1 target is in the kidneys. ARBs are the -sartan drugs (including losartan, candesartan, telmisartan, azilsartan, etc). Telmisartan is very popular and effective, besides being an ARB it also has partial PPARγ agonism. Azilsartan is a smaller molecule with prolonged active time on AT1, and also a partial PPARγ agonist although somewhat less so than telmisartan. Dosage is typically 40-80mg for telmisartan/azilsartan, I suggest taking them at night before bed. ARBs are known to mitigate LVH, those with normal blood pressure might want to consider using a small 20mg dose for that purpose alone. Over 80mg there is little added benefit, basically that's near where the drugs saturate the AT1 receptors. In some people, ARB and ACE inhibitor drugs can cause hyperkalemia, so check blood chemistries after initiating therapy to make sure K+ is not too high; mine was borderline at 5.3 with 80mg/day azilsartan, although I was taking a decent amount of extended release potassium citrate (for kidney stone prophylaxis, I've had a few)... I replaced most of that with frequent doses of magnesium citrate now which has helped.

Next is CCB; amlodipine (L channel blocker) is most commonly prescribed in the USA but cilnitidine (L+N channel blocker) is a far superior drug - particularly for bodybuilders - and worth buying from overseas. Dosage is typically 5-20mg, I suggest taking upon waking up. Basically cilnidipine both relaxes the blood vessels directly via the L channels, and reduces sympathetic nervous system outflow via the N channels. The latter is key for me, as I have an over-responsive sympathetic nervous system and a dampened parasympathetic nervous system from using retatrutide.

HCTZ is a potassium-sparing diuretic and best for older, ill people with edema from heart failure, kidney failure, liver failure/cirrhosis, etc. I don't think it should ever be used as a first line antihypertensive for bodybuilders. Excessive fluid retention with PEDs is typically from excessive estrogen, that is resolved by reducing total aromatizing compounds and/or aromatization via judicious use of an AI (typically exemestate or anastrozole). GH can cause water retention too, if so reduce the dose and/or try another brand. Excessive sodium and carbohydrate intake can cause fluid retention too. So don't be a water buffalo in the first place.

HCTZ also has more significant potential side effects including electrolyte imbalances, ED, insulin resistance, and worsening of lipid profile (elevated TC/LDL//trigs and reduced HDL, pretty much the last things men using PEDs need). That all said, using HCTZ to use as a diuretic for a photo shoot or transiently while excess water retention is being addressed from the source. I have yet to use it, but my wife likes to take one the day before a photo shoot.

BB: Not really much place for them for blood pressure control. Formerly I used Nebivolol in hopes of reducing RHR and day time blood pressure, first 5mg/day then 10mg/day in the am. It really didn't do much at either dose. And adding a BB exacerbates any hyperkalemia that some people get from using ARBs. For anxiety, small doses of propranolol, the OG beta blocker which crosses the blood-brain barrier, can be calming. The newer, cardioselective beta blockers are really best utilized by patients with specific heart issues that require them.

My RHR is not exceedingly high but higher than I prefer (often low 80s resting, which would sometimes bother me at night when trying to sleep) from use of androgens, 7.5iu/day GH + Retatrudide 4mg/wk, and potentially some reflex tachycardia from the other blood pressure meds. What works beautifully for this is ivabradine, it acts selectively on the sinoatrial node to inhibit the funny current. Starting dosage is 2.5mg twice a day, which can be increased up to 7.5mg twice a day. I found each 5mg/day drops RHR about 10 points; at least in me, it has zero other effects. It can also improve ejection fraction by giving the ventricle more time to fill during diastole; that's really its main on-label indication.

I can make a similar post about lipid management too, if anyone wants. Anyone on more than HRT dose test really needs to be aggressive with that, if they want to avoid cardiovascular disease over the long haul. All androgens inherently raise LDL and reduce HDL - testosterone included - and anyone who lives supraphysiologic really should be keeping their LDL < 55, and that won't happen with supplements alone.
 
Last edited:
ACE cough doesn't seem to be as benign as once thought. Long term ACE use is increasingly giving clinical signals of lung cancer, and while not strong enough to warrant taking existing patients with well controlled BP off, most doctors who keep their knowledge up to date are no longer starting patients on them.
 
ACE cough doesn't seem to be as benign as once thought. Long term ACE use is increasingly giving clinical signals of lung cancer, and while not strong enough to warrant taking existing patients with well controlled BP off, most doctors who keep their knowledge up to date are no longer starting patients on them.
I was not even aware off that, but cannot say I am surprised by it either.

I had to twist my 82-year old mother's cardiologist to change her from an ACE inhibitor to telmisartan. No more cough and her BP is better controlled too.

Btw @Ghoul check your DMs
 
My doctor put me on an ace. But within a week I got itching over my entire body. She changed to telmisartan after
Is spoke to her about how the bodybuilding community thinks about it. Almost immediately itching went away and bp is perfect.
 
I'd say you need a new doctor. HCTZ is not a suitable first line antihypertensive for anyone, bodybuilders in particular. Here are my thoughts on antihypertensives for this community, thank you to @Ghoul who turned me on to cilnidipine as I was completely unaware of it being off the USA formulary (not worth US Pharma paying off FDA to get it approved since they won't be able to make a fortune with exclusive sales, sad but true).

My first line is ARB; while ACE inhibitors have the same ultimate end effect, they work indirectly and can produce the infamous cough - their ACE target enzyme is found in the lungs, while the ultimate AT1 target is in the kidneys. ARBs are the -sartan drugs (including losartan, candesartan, telmisartan, azilsartan, etc). Telmisartan is very popular and effective, besides being an ARB it also has partial PPARγ agonism. Azilsartan is a smaller molecule with prolonged active time on AT1, and also a partial PPARγ agonist although somewhat less so than telmisartan. Dosage is typically 40-80mg for telmisartan/azilsartan, I suggest taking them at night before bed. ARBs are known to mitigate LVH, those with normal blood pressure might want to consider using a small 20mg dose for that purpose alone. Over 80mg there is little added benefit, basically that's near where the drugs saturate the AT1 receptors. In some people, ARB and ACE inhibitor drugs can cause hyperkalemia, so check blood chemistries after initiating therapy to make sure K+ is not too high; mine was borderline at 5.3 with 80mg/day azilsartan, although I was taking a decent amount of extended release potassium citrate (for kidney stone prophylaxis, I've had a few)... I replaced most of that with frequent doses of magnesium citrate now which has helped.

Next is CCB; amlodipine (L channel blocker) is most commonly prescribed in the USA but cilnitidine (L+N channel blocker) is a far superior drug - particularly for bodybuilders - and worth buying from overseas. Dosage is typically 5-20mg, I suggest taking upon waking up. Basically cilnidipine both relaxes the blood vessels directly via the L channels, and reduces sympathetic nervous system outflow via the N channels. The latter is key for me, as I have an over-responsive sympathetic nervous system and a dampened parasympathetic nervous system from using retatrutide.

HCTZ is a potassium-sparing diuretic and best for older, ill people with edema from heart failure, kidney failure, liver failure/cirrhosis, etc. I don't think it should ever be used as a first line antihypertensive for bodybuilders. Excessive fluid retention with PEDs is typically from excessive estrogen, that is resolved by reducing total aromatizing compounds and/or aromatization via judicious use of an AI (typically exemestate or anastrozole). GH can cause water retention too, if so reduce the dose and/or try another brand. Excessive sodium and carbohydrate intake can cause fluid retention too. So don't be a water buffalo in the first place.

HCTZ also has more significant potential side effects including electrolyte imbalances, ED, insulin resistance, and worsening of lipid profile (elevated TC/LDL//trigs and reduced HDL, pretty much the last things men using PEDs need). That all said, using HCTZ to use as a diuretic for a photo shoot or transiently while excess water retention is being addressed from the source. I have yet to use it, but my wife likes to take one the day before a photo shoot.

BB: Not really much place for them for blood pressure control. Formerly I used Nebivolol in hopes of reducing RHR and day time blood pressure, first 5mg/day then 10mg/day in the am. It really didn't do much at either dose. And adding a BB exacerbates any hyperkalemia that some people get from using ARBs. For anxiety, small doses of propranolol, the OG beta blocker which crosses the blood-brain barrier, can be calming. The newer, cardioselective beta blockers are really best utilized by patients with specific heart issues that require them.

My RHR is not exceedingly high but higher than I prefer (often low 80s resting, which would sometimes bother me at night when trying to sleep) from use of androgens, 7.5iu/day GH + Retatrudide 4mg/wk, and potentially some reflex tachycardia from the other blood pressure meds. What works beautifully for this is ivabradine, it acts selectively on the sinoatrial node to inhibit the funny current. Starting dosage is 2.5mg twice a day, which can be increased up to 7.5mg twice a day. I found each 5mg/day drops RHR about 10 points; at least in me, it has zero other effects. It can also improve ejection fraction by giving the ventricle more time to fill during diastole; that's really its main on-label indication.

I can make a similar post about lipid management too, if anyone wants. Anyone on more than HRT dose test really needs to be aggressive with that, if they want to avoid cardiovascular disease over the long haul. All androgens inherently raise LDL and reduce HDL - testosterone included - and anyone who lives supraphysiologic really should be keeping their LDL < 55, and that won't happen with supplements alone.
Lipid post please
 
i was on teli 80/12.5 wasn't doing the job quite well 160-170/90-100 in afternoon on cycle managing my BP. doc changed it Reaptan 5 mg/10 mg (perindopril arginine/amlodipine. got my bp 150-95 not great. then
disaster.... 8kg edema from being on this 1 week. ended up getting DVT right calf clot and one on the lung induced heavy breathing. now on thinners next 6months cause one fucking change.

back on teli 80/25 waters gone. bp 130/75 still on cycle afternoon.

Culprit was amlodipine 10mg. will never touch that drug again body said big NO.
 
i was on teli 80/12.5 wasn't doing the job quite well 160-170/90-100 in afternoon on cycle managing my BP. doc changed it Reaptan 5 mg/10 mg (perindopril arginine/amlodipine. got my bp 150-95 not great. then
disaster.... 8kg edema from being on this 1 week. ended up getting DVT right calf clot and one on the lung induced heavy breathing. now on thinners next 6months cause one fucking change.

back on teli 80/25 waters gone. bp 130/75 still on cycle afternoon.

Culprit was amlodipine 10mg. will never touch that drug again body said big NO.
If you decide to try a CCB in the future, use Cilnidipine. Newer generation that mostly fixes the edema issue. Has some other benefits as well vs the older generation.
 
Amlodipine also has a very long half life so it can build up particularly in people that are slow metabolizers.

It's a shame that cilnidipine is not available in USA. Thankfully we can get it from India.
 
After 18 years of PED use I've dialed in the maintenance and regulation of my important biomarkers to ensure I'm not going to drop prematurely from heart disease and/or the many related cardiac conditions that are killing bodybuilders these days. I work as a coach and have over 20 years of bodybuilding, diet, supplementation, & PED knowledge. I practice responsible AAS use now as I'm older and concerned about the damage Testosterone supplementation has had over the last 16 years. I have an endocrinologist who doesn't understand the lifestyle I live and recommends I quit it all, but I refuse to live like a sheep instead of a lion for the remainder of my life. I started taking Telmisartan a year ago, but from a Chinese site as my doctor wouldn't prescribe it, now I cant get it. Shes finally put me on Hydrochlorothiazide, a mild diuretic to lower the high blood pressure I've been managing for the last 3 years. She wants to start with this, then look at newer ARBs, but I think ACE Inhibitors work better from anecdotal and clinical studies I've read. I know a Diuretic wont cut it as I'm running 3 businesses and live in a high stressful lifestyle. I'm looking for other alternatives than what I already take to see what's worked for others. I'm only running about 400 mg/week of Test, 2 IU/day of HGH, 250 mcg/week of HCG, 6-8 IU/Humalog preworkout, and related ancillaries, plus a number of cardiac promoting supplements like Citrus Bergamot, NAC, Trans-resveratrol, Vit D & K, Ubiquinol, and more antioxidants from biweekly IV Drips. My BP goes upto 170-90/85-95 regularly so is concerning...
I was prescribed al
I'd say you need a new doctor. HCTZ is not a suitable first line antihypertensive for anyone, bodybuilders in particular. Here are my thoughts on antihypertensives for this community, thank you to @Ghoul who turned me on to cilnidipine as I was completely unaware of it being off the USA formulary (not worth US Pharma paying off FDA to get it approved since they won't be able to make a fortune with exclusive sales, sad but true).

My first line is ARB; while ACE inhibitors have the same ultimate end effect, they work indirectly and can produce the infamous cough - their ACE target enzyme is found in the lungs, while the ultimate AT1 target is in the kidneys. ARBs are the -sartan drugs (including losartan, candesartan, telmisartan, azilsartan, etc). Telmisartan is very popular and effective, besides being an ARB it also has partial PPARγ agonism. Azilsartan is a smaller molecule with prolonged active time on AT1, and also a partial PPARγ agonist although somewhat less so than telmisartan. Dosage is typically 40-80mg for telmisartan/azilsartan, I suggest taking them at night before bed. ARBs are known to mitigate LVH, those with normal blood pressure might want to consider using a small 20mg dose for that purpose alone. Over 80mg there is little added benefit, basically that's near where the drugs saturate the AT1 receptors. In some people, ARB and ACE inhibitor drugs can cause hyperkalemia, so check blood chemistries after initiating therapy to make sure K+ is not too high; mine was borderline at 5.3 with 80mg/day azilsartan, although I was taking a decent amount of extended release potassium citrate (for kidney stone prophylaxis, I've had a few)... I replaced most of that with frequent doses of magnesium citrate now which has helped.

Next is CCB; amlodipine (L channel blocker) is most commonly prescribed in the USA but cilnitidine (L+N channel blocker) is a far superior drug - particularly for bodybuilders - and worth buying from overseas. Dosage is typically 5-20mg, I suggest taking upon waking up. Basically cilnidipine both relaxes the blood vessels directly via the L channels, and reduces sympathetic nervous system outflow via the N channels. The latter is key for me, as I have an over-responsive sympathetic nervous system and a dampened parasympathetic nervous system from using retatrutide.

HCTZ is a potassium-sparing diuretic and best for older, ill people with edema from heart failure, kidney failure, liver failure/cirrhosis, etc. I don't think it should ever be used as a first line antihypertensive for bodybuilders. Excessive fluid retention with PEDs is typically from excessive estrogen, that is resolved by reducing total aromatizing compounds and/or aromatization via judicious use of an AI (typically exemestate or anastrozole). GH can cause water retention too, if so reduce the dose and/or try another brand. Excessive sodium and carbohydrate intake can cause fluid retention too. So don't be a water buffalo in the first place.

HCTZ also has more significant potential side effects including electrolyte imbalances, ED, insulin resistance, and worsening of lipid profile (elevated TC/LDL//trigs and reduced HDL, pretty much the last things men using PEDs need). That all said, using HCTZ to use as a diuretic for a photo shoot or transiently while excess water retention is being addressed from the source. I have yet to use it, but my wife likes to take one the day before a photo shoot.

BB: Not really much place for them for blood pressure control. Formerly I used Nebivolol in hopes of reducing RHR and day time blood pressure, first 5mg/day then 10mg/day in the am. It really didn't do much at either dose. And adding a BB exacerbates any hyperkalemia that some people get from using ARBs. For anxiety, small doses of propranolol, the OG beta blocker which crosses the blood-brain barrier, can be calming. The newer, cardioselective beta blockers are really best utilized by patients with specific heart issues that require them.

My RHR is not exceedingly high but higher than I prefer (often low 80s resting, which would sometimes bother me at night when trying to sleep) from use of androgens, 7.5iu/day GH + Retatrudide 4mg/wk, and potentially some reflex tachycardia from the other blood pressure meds. What works beautifully for this is ivabradine, it acts selectively on the sinoatrial node to inhibit the funny current. Starting dosage is 2.5mg twice a day, which can be increased up to 7.5mg twice a day. I found each 5mg/day drops RHR about 10 points; at least in me, it has zero other effects. It can also improve ejection fraction by giving the ventricle more time to fill during diastole; that's really its main on-label indication.

I can make a similar post about lipid management too, if anyone wants. Anyone on more than HRT dose test really needs to be aggressive with that, if they want to avoid cardiovascular disease over the long haul. All androgens inherently raise LDL and reduce HDL - testosterone included - and anyone who lives supraphysiologic really should be keeping their LDL < 55, and that won't happen with supplements alone.
i was prescribed amlodipine but I didn’t take it properly and my blood pressure didn’t improve. Here has me on olmesartan now and I feel as if it works better. I have been taking it responsibly now due to the fact, I have the perfect recipe for a blood pressure disaster with having sleep apnea , taking anabolics , genetics , and sometimes kidney issues. That’s why these days it’s just test and gh. I didn’t start AAS until 38. It’s frustrating this stuff and the gym has saved my life
 

Sponsors

Latest posts

Back
Top