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Loading phase is not necessary.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
B12
- Thread starter rubisean
- Start date
Loading phase is not necessary.
Good to know - I came across a lot of differing information on that subject.
Unless you're B-12 deficient which is RARE and almost exclusively limited to those on VERY strict diets or those with an specific GI disorder, PARENTERAL B-12 supplementation does nothing but generate expensive urine. The evidence based data on such supplementation is irrefutable, as the "benefit" does NOT exceed the effects of placebo
However if one wants to ensure they "have enough" any oral MVI seems reasonable.
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Kinda silly when you think about it a "loading dose" of a WATER SOLUBLE vitamin. Now how is that going to help as there is NO STORING mechanism for water soluble vitamins and whatever is not used in relatively short order is EXCRETED.
I mean at least establish your deficient before you begin B-12 therapy AND the one of the more common complications of B-12 deficiency is ANEMIA with BIG RBCs (AKA Megaloblastic Anemia). In the absence of such a finding inadequate B-12 is quite unlikely for all intents and purposes.
Otherwise guys really what are we treating, a fable, a notion, our psyche or perhaps the whims of "bros" who became disenfranchised from reading Ladies Home Journal
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Goddam it Jim. Going fuckin up my dreams
with all your FACTS and COMMON sense...
with all your FACTS and COMMON sense...
I was aware of the water soluble vitamins portion - but I also read that b12 is stored in the liver for long periods of time also and released as needed by the body which seemed to lend itself to the loading theory. That is the portion that threw me I guess. I still dont really have a grasp on that part.
Now that's a good question, but the difference lies in stores vs storage vs stored!
Yea right Doc, lol!
Yea right Doc, lol!
The difference lies in the amount held in reserve as in a storage epot of sorts, awaiting a metabolic need.
That'ss to
That'ss to
That's to say the majority of B-12 and other water soluble "stores" are BOUND within the cell and as such are being used for active metabolic processes.
Contrast this with Iron for example in which Iron stores are attached to transport proteins as a primary storage mechanism. Moreover several mechanisms are utilized to ensure Fe is recirculated once the primary storage depot, the RBC, dies.
Perhaps of greater importance is the fact, water soluble vitamins require little or no catabolism before they are renal excreted. Contrast this with fat soluble vitamins that require hepatic metabolism into various hydrophilic byproducts to ensure they can be renally excreted.
This is one reason fat soluble vitamins tend to accumulate within fatty tissues, they can literally BIND to various portions of the phospholipid cell membrane itself and interfere with intrinsic metabolic processes. This "binding" effect would be very limited with water soluble vitamins and is one reason "storage" is difficult in the absence of an active transport mechanism!
Contrast this with Iron for example in which Iron stores are attached to transport proteins as a primary storage mechanism. Moreover several mechanisms are utilized to ensure Fe is recirculated once the primary storage depot, the RBC, dies.
Perhaps of greater importance is the fact, water soluble vitamins require little or no catabolism before they are renal excreted. Contrast this with fat soluble vitamins that require hepatic metabolism into various hydrophilic byproducts to ensure they can be renally excreted.
This is one reason fat soluble vitamins tend to accumulate within fatty tissues, they can literally BIND to various portions of the phospholipid cell membrane itself and interfere with intrinsic metabolic processes. This "binding" effect would be very limited with water soluble vitamins and is one reason "storage" is difficult in the absence of an active transport mechanism!
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Good question EMAN!
This makes sense - I'm wondering about b12 related anemia and the way b12 is or isn't bound to the cells in that situation? I became interested in b12 from the start because of its role in anemia. The b12 isn't absorbed into as many cells as would be ideal, correct? The supply/stores don't meet the demand/metabolic need. Would loading or mega dosing b12 be helpful in this situation or does it still fall back on the storage amount available?
With respect to loading any vitamin. The concern is whether or not a patients serum levels are reflective of Total Body Stores and in many instances serum levels underestimate body stores. But is this relevant in a patient who is asymptomatic, NOPE.
Thus the utility of many laboratory tests are no better than the person who is interpreting those values in the context of THAT patient who sits before them!
To that end there are very few instances in which loading a vitamin or mineral is deemed medically necessary. A couple examples include patients with SEVERE SYMPTOMATIC iron deficient anemia and another is a patient who is given Vitamin K bc as a means of correcting hepatic related clotting dysfunction. (Another such example is patients who refuse blood transfusions on religious bases such as Jehova Witnesses and "bleed out" during a surgical procedure)
Those are the only two instances in which a PARENTERAL loading dose of either a Vitamin or mineral may be justifiablly "medically appropriate" IME.
Of course part of the reason the such loading meds Aquamephyton and Imferon are used as somewhat of a last resort is the risk of serious adverse effects, anaphylaxis in particular and although rare when it's happens to you or your loved one, that's NOT rare but real!
So really theres no way I could justify giving a patient B-12 shots unless they were symptomatic, had clinical features of a deficiency or a suppressed serum level AND even then I would advise ORAL therapy.
Who are candidates for PARENTERAL B-12 therapy? THOSE WHO HAVE A DEFECTIVE GI ABSORPTIVE MECHANISM/S, the remainder should be treated with oral agents.
Otherwise I'm beginning to believe some of you fellas enjoy the "rush" of being a pin cushion
JIM
Thus the utility of many laboratory tests are no better than the person who is interpreting those values in the context of THAT patient who sits before them!
To that end there are very few instances in which loading a vitamin or mineral is deemed medically necessary. A couple examples include patients with SEVERE SYMPTOMATIC iron deficient anemia and another is a patient who is given Vitamin K bc as a means of correcting hepatic related clotting dysfunction. (Another such example is patients who refuse blood transfusions on religious bases such as Jehova Witnesses and "bleed out" during a surgical procedure)
Those are the only two instances in which a PARENTERAL loading dose of either a Vitamin or mineral may be justifiablly "medically appropriate" IME.
Of course part of the reason the such loading meds Aquamephyton and Imferon are used as somewhat of a last resort is the risk of serious adverse effects, anaphylaxis in particular and although rare when it's happens to you or your loved one, that's NOT rare but real!
So really theres no way I could justify giving a patient B-12 shots unless they were symptomatic, had clinical features of a deficiency or a suppressed serum level AND even then I would advise ORAL therapy.
Who are candidates for PARENTERAL B-12 therapy? THOSE WHO HAVE A DEFECTIVE GI ABSORPTIVE MECHANISM/S, the remainder should be treated with oral agents.
Otherwise I'm beginning to believe some of you fellas enjoy the "rush" of being a pin cushion
JIM
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hardasnails1973
New Member
Some times people have genetic expressions to where they may not convert b12 to hydrox to methyl or adeno b12. Taking straight b12 at high dosages in this situations may cause problems. Despite b12 being at 400-500 levels in the serum, person may still have cellular deficiency. I see this quite often. Why I set serum at 700 for cut off for b12 deficiency vs current ranges. Canada is even worse ....
You're right! I started b12 a few years ago.I'm diabetic and the metformin I take to control glucose prevents vitamin B absorption so I compliment with the shots.Started on 5000mcg a week to kick start my B and after 2 months,broke it down to 5000 a month to maintain nice B levels.From what I understand B pill form is not well absorbed and the body only absorbs whatever B it needs, the rest is pissed out.So if you're B levels are not low,I would abort the mission as you are only pissing away your money.Side effects: Piss red hours after shot and I get a mean headache the day after shot:Remedy: drink plenty water. Take 2 Tylenols. Call me in the morning.
Another thing is that one may be missing intrinsic factor and thus be unable to absorb B12 normally. It seems this (loss of production of intrinsic factor) can occur during adulthood especially when one gets older.
There are spray-type B12 products that are supposed to be absorbed in mouth. This works same way as injection, that intrinsic factor is not needed for absorption.
My b 12 is double the amount it is suppose to be. I have no idea why. It is at 1500. I have bloods to prove.
I would assume that vitamin C injections would be much better. The doc I know of who does, vitmamin injections, and BCAA injections, which costs 500 an injection. So I do not do it. Injects tens of thousands of vitamin C, and it has great properties. I am talking 50,000 ius.
I am actually thinking he might do peptide injections. Fuck, I am going to see if he does GHRP, and stuff like that. I havent been to him in 6 months and only went twice. He treats HIV and cancer patients. I think he might do peptides, maybe not the muscle building ones. But he might since he deals with HIV patients.. He doesn't except insurance. 300 a visit. So I go to him rarely.
I am actually thinking he might do peptide injections. Fuck, I am going to see if he does GHRP, and stuff like that. I havent been to him in 6 months and only went twice. He treats HIV and cancer patients. I think he might do peptides, maybe not the muscle building ones. But he might since he deals with HIV patients.. He doesn't except insurance. 300 a visit. So I go to him rarely.
johntt44
New Member
I tried b12 injections for 15weeks. 1000mcg twice a week and literally noticed no difference. My nutrition is on point and I always feel good anyway.
B12, while water soluble, is stored in the liver and it does take quite awhile to deplete the liver stores. As in a year or more. People most likely to become deficient are vegans/vegetarians and people chronically on a PPI like Prilosec. Gastric surgery, Crohn's disease, etc are a different beast altogether as I don't think anyone posting has these issues.
Really glad to have found this thread. It appears there is some good info in here. Bumping for others that may also be thinking about B12.
