Beginner needs help with Mast/Dbol short cycles

[TheDogSoldier]

What's up everybody,
I'm planning my first-ever cycle(s), and it's an unconventional protocol so I need some help with details please.
I'm 46yo male, 150lbs, 5'8", Cholesterol 180, Triglycerides 34, BP ~115/65, Test 594. No health problems other than low back pain.
I train Jiujitsu, kettlebells (they seem to help the back) , and powerlifting (it's fun) . Because I'm so small, I am prone to injury on the mat, so I have been focusing on adding muscle over the last 3 months and will continue to - my body is naturally skinny and this is a very tedious process for me. Also I have noticed in the last few years that recovery from training has really slowed down.
I would like to add a little muscle, and recover better from workouts, *without* disrupting my good natty T (I'd like to hang on to that for a few more years!)
So I have designed a program that's more for athletic performance, not a bulking protocol:

-------------
Masteron mix (1:2 propionate:enanthate) Day 1 100mg, Day 3 100mg, Day 5 100mg;

Dbol 10mg daily through day 10;

20 days off;
repeat continuously (monthly)
-------------

*The reason for such a short cycle* is that this protocol follows my existing training schedule :
Week 1: hypertrophy training
Week 2: strength training
Week 3: mobility training
Week 4: recovery/therapy
(repeat)
This is just how I've come to train over many years of experimenting, and it works for me. My hard phase is the first two weeks, easy for the last two.

If my labs are stable after 3 months, I will increase the dosages by %50.

*My main question is: should I use Clomid for PCT? Days 11-30? If so, 25mg?
Also, what is the storage life of the Mast mix in the fridge?

Thank you all for your help!

 

[Test_Subject]

You should just start eating more. You're not even remotely close to the point that you need PEDs.

I'm not saying that to be an ass. I'm being 100% honest and constructive. Just spend the money on food.

 

[TheDogSoldier]

Thanks for the input, but I have already increased my intake by at least 50% in the last 3 months and I have actually gone from 142 to ~151 in that time. About a third of that is fat. I haven't been doing any Jiujitsu or cardio besides walking, because I know from past experiences that I will lose that weight immediately if I start regular cardio.
My primary goal is to recover more quickly/be able to train more. Basically, if I start back to Jits, I will have to dial back the lifting in order to recover, and then I lose muscle. I'm looking for a bump so that I can do both ! Like said, I'm shooting for more of a PED than a bodybuilding approach.
Thanks again guys

 

[Eman]

Your proposed cycle will harm performance more than it'll enhance it, IMO. If you get any noticeable enhancement to begin with... Which is unlikely. No test, micro dosages, constant hormone roller coaster... Not many redeeming qualities to this design.

Don't put gear in the fridge...

 

[Morefyah]

I’m sorry but this is retarded The “I’m naturally skinny” excuse gets old after you hit 45 . We’re the same age your a inch shorter and 55lbs less then me and I’ve been a vegan for the last 7 years. Your definitely going to disrupt your natty test no matter what manner you run this. You will gain at first then you will lose everything and go back to being 140lbs after your 10 day pct.

Do yourself a favor and don’t run anything! Do more research on diet, training and testosterone only cycles.
Maybe even inquire with @Atlas_Physiques

 

[TheDogSoldier]

You're not even remotely close to the point that you need PEDs.

What's this sentiment? I thought steroids were made to help people train more and gain faster. Are you saying I should work hard for years trying to get natural gains first, and then take steroids? That doesn't make any sense. Please explain this, because I have seen this sentiment before. What is it some macho shit like, *you have to earn your right to use steroids*? What's up bud, I appreciate you but let me have it thanks.

 

[TheDogSoldier]

Your proposed cycle will harm performance more than it'll enhance it, IMO. If you get any noticeable enhancement to begin with... Which is unlikely. No test, micro dosages, constant hormone roller coaster... Not many redeeming qualities to this design.

Thanks bud, I modeled this after 2-week programs advocated in dozens of posts and articles by expert Bill Roberts. He says when it's that short, there is no roller coaster, because the body doesn't start suppressing processes. All I did was take his protocol and make it a little shorter, while preserving the ratio of onff time. He also advocated Mast because it was the least suppressive.

 

[Pineapples4Puss]

What's this sentiment? I thought steroids were made to help people train more and gain faster. Are you saying I should work hard for years trying to get natural gains first, and then take steroids? That doesn't make any sense. Please explain this, because I have seen this sentiment before. What is it some macho shit like, *you have to earn your right to use steroids*? What's up bud, I appreciate you but let me have it thanks.

Are you serious? Do you even know the process In which natural testosterone is produced? This cycle doesn’t even make sense and being 140 pounds you literally just don’t know what you’re doing. They do enchanted training. They don’t make gains faster, they give you an OPPORTUNITY to make gains faster in a way you could argue. It opens a door to extend past a natural level. Doesn’t mean you will.

Steroids actually complicate gaining muscle greatly tbh. It isn’t just find some drugs and take them. If you can’t eat and gain naturally steroids won’t help you.

Buy some jars of peanut butter and protein powder I promise you’ll make gains.

 

[Pineapples4Puss]

Thanks bud, I modeled this after 2-week programs advocated in dozens of posts and articles by expert Bill Roberts. He says when it's that short, there is no roller coaster, because the body doesn't start suppressing processes. All I did was take his protocol and make it a little shorter, while preserving the ratio of onff time. He also advocated Mast because it was the least suppressive.

If your body doesn’t start the suppressive process then why are you running a pct . If he is an expert and this is your first cycle why are you changing the protocols

 

[Eman]

Thanks bud, I modeled this after 2-week programs advocated in dozens of posts and articles by expert Bill Roberts. He says when it's that short, there is no roller coaster, because the body doesn't start suppressing processes. All I did was take his protocol and make it a little shorter, while preserving the ratio of onff time. He also advocated Mast because it was the least suppressive.

Roberts tends write cycle plans that look better on paper than they do in practice. There is always a rollercoaster.

However, if you want to give it a whirl... Go for it. I think you'll be disappointed and it's just going to put you in a situation where you're chasing your tail.

Are you saying I should work hard for years trying to get natural gains first, and then take steroids? That doesn't make any sense.

Of course it does. Without a sufficient fund of knowledge about training and nutrition, you'll be completely short changing yourself when it comes to PED use. You can't skip ahead to 4th gear everytime you are at a red light just because it's easier to jump to the last gear... You have to go through the process or you'll stall.

With all that said, I'm not trying to talk you out of a cycle... You're 46yo, you can do what you want. I would just suggest that you don't try the particular cycle that you've outlined nor get TOO fancy with the cycle you do.

Just run a beginner cycle of test at 400mg and perhaps anavar to go along with your athletic goals. If you want to do dbol, that's fine but I think anavar might fit your goals better.

I don't really understand your training schedule but if you want to gain muscle, a hypertrophy phase has to be longer than one week. Same goes for a strength phase. Expecting to gain or retain any appreciable muscle mass or strength in one week per month training blocks, even on AAS, is simply out of the question.

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

Did you propose your cycle to get advice or did you propose your cycle to open debate for sake of argument?

Lots of guys post and benefit GREATLY from the advice given for free by guys with a ton of knowledge and experience.

Then there are twats that come on here thinking they know all the answers and somehow want to feed their egos proving that their weird cycle is RIGHT.

Listen to the advice you’re being given. These guys are just looking out for you. The cycle you have just isn’t right anymore. Bill Roberts might have written it but it’s long-outdated and there are BETTER ways of doing things.

Fix your training. You’re 140 pounds, if your training truly worked then you would weigh closer to 165-170. Steroids help to maximize your potential but you haven’t even scratched the surface yet. If your not training correctly, steroids won’t help you reach your goals any quicker. Spend time reading about training programs instead of steroids. Reach your goals and then do a cycle. The results will be so much better for you.

 

[Test_Subject]

What's this sentiment? I thought steroids were made to help people train more and gain faster. Are you saying I should work hard for years trying to get natural gains first, and then take steroids? That doesn't make any sense. Please explain this, because I have seen this sentiment before. What is it some macho shit like, *you have to earn your right to use steroids*? What's up bud, I appreciate you but let me have it thanks.

Don't listen to me, then. Continue training and eating as you do and run that FUBAR cycle.

No skin off my ass.

 

[Iron Frenchie]

Roberts tends write cycle plans that look better on paper than they do in practice. There is always a rollercoaster.

However, if you want to give it a whirl... Go for it. I think you'll be disappointed and it's just going to put you in a situation where you're chasing your tail.



Of course it does. Without a sufficient fund of knowledge about training and nutrition, you'll be completely short changing yourself when it comes to PED use. You can't skip ahead to 4th gear everytime you are at a red light just because it's easier to jump to the last gear... You have to go through the process or you'll stall.

With all that said, I'm not trying to talk you out of a cycle... You're 46yo, you can do what you want. I would just suggest that you don't try the particular cycle that you've outlined nor get TOO fancy with the cycle you do.

Just run a beginner cycle of test at 400mg and perhaps anavar to go along with your athletic goals. If you want to do dbol, that's fine but I think anavar might fit your goals better.

I don't really understand your training schedule but if you want to gain muscle, a hypertrophy phase has to be longer than one week. Same goes for a strength phase. Expecting to gain or retain any appreciable muscle mass or strength in one week per month training blocks, even on AAS, is simply out of the question.

This right here.
You will be way more happy with this cycle then the one you proposed.

 

[TheDogSoldier]

Roberts tends write cycle plans that look better on paper than they do in practice. There is always a rollercoaster.

Thanks @Eman for your thoughtful response. As a beginner and new forum member, little did I know that 1) my proposed cycle was so unusual and 2) that a noob proposing an unusual cycle would be so disdained!
So sue me for following Bill Robert's, he only wrote most of the steroid profiles on the site! And as far as my motivation and expectations : I saw Louie Simmons in an interview say that, "steroids don't make you stronger, they just allow you to train harder and recover better." Is he not an expert? Seems like everyone here is saying "no, steroids only allow you to get bigger than natural once you attain your natural max."
I said I don't want to suppress my T, and you all suggest I run a test cycle which will definitely do that, and which will require a PCT that looks potentially pretty complicated to my beginner eyes.
No I'm not here to argue, in fact I'm out of here after this! Thank you Eman for taking the time to explain your perspective, I do think I understand it. My program is 2 weeks hard, 1 week de-load, 1 week recovery. I do hypertrophy throughout the first 3 weeks, I just change the some of the movements and rep ranges for the main lifts. If the wide-world of steroids can't possibly provide a cycle to match my program, then I'll be damned.

 

[Pineapples4Puss]

Thanks @Eman for your thoughtful response. As a beginner and new forum member, little did I know that 1) my proposed cycle was so unusual and 2) that a noob proposing an unusual cycle would be so disdained!
So sue me for following Bill Robert's, he only wrote most of the steroid profiles on the site! And as far as my motivation and expectations : I saw Louie Simmons in an interview say that, "steroids don't make you stronger, they just allow you to train harder and recover better." Is he not an expert? Seems like everyone here is saying "no, steroids only allow you to get bigger than natural once you attain your natural max."
I said I don't want to suppress my T, and you all suggest I run a test cycle which will definitely do that, and which will require a PCT that looks potentially pretty complicated to my beginner eyes.
No I'm not here to argue, in fact I'm out of here after this! Thank you Eman for taking the time to explain your perspective, I do think I understand it. My program is 2 weeks hard, 1 week de-load, 1 week recovery. I do hypertrophy throughout the first 3 weeks, I just change the some of the movements and rep ranges for the main lifts. If the wide-world of steroids can't possibly provide a cycle to match my program, then I'll be damned.

1. A basic search would of told you what every single begginer should do for a cycle.
2. Nobody ever said that. If you can’t get to your genetic potential without drugs what makes you think any gains made after a cycle will be kept? You will get there faster. And fall just as fast once the drugs are cut out.
3. You think a dbol/mast cycle is any less suppressive as a test only cycle. Basic knowledge you are lacking. You can run a gram of test or 200 mg of test. You’re shut down either way. Doesn’t matter. Sure you can make recovery easier or harder depending what you run that’s a whole other story. There isn’t a way to take steroids and not be suppressed. If you don’t want to suppress your t then don’t run a cycle.

I don’t think anyone cares what you do. But think for yourself and just because someone is an “expert” doesn’t mean blindly follow.

 

[BigBaldBeardGuy]

1. A basic search would of told you what every single begginer should do for a cycle.
2. Nobody ever said that. If you can’t get to your genetic potential without drugs what makes you think any gains made after a cycle will be kept? You will get there faster. And fall just as fast once the drugs are cut out.
3. You think a dbol/mast cycle is any less suppressive as a test only cycle. Basic knowledge you are lacking. You can run a gram of test or 200 mg of test. You’re shut down either way. Doesn’t matter. Sure you can make recovery easier or harder depending what you run that’s a whole other story. There isn’t a way to take steroids and not be suppressed. If you don’t want to suppress your t then don’t run a cycle.

I don’t think anyone cares what you do. But think for yourself and just because someone is an “expert” doesn’t mean blindly follow.

I think it’s too late. He seemed to get kinda “uppity” this morning and ran off never to return to MESO again. I think his feelings got hurt because we all said his cycle was wrong.

OP if you’re still reading, you’re getting good advice. It’s up to you whether you want to listen or not.

 

[Eman]

Thanks @Eman for your thoughtful response. As a beginner and new forum member, little did I know that 1) my proposed cycle was so unusual and 2) that a noob proposing an unusual cycle would be so disdained!
So sue me for following Bill Robert's, he only wrote most of the steroid profiles on the site! And as far as my motivation and expectations : I saw Louie Simmons in an interview say that, "steroids don't make you stronger, they just allow you to train harder and recover better." Is he not an expert? Seems like everyone here is saying "no, steroids only allow you to get bigger than natural once you attain your natural max."
I said I don't want to suppress my T, and you all suggest I run a test cycle which will definitely do that, and which will require a PCT that looks potentially pretty complicated to my beginner eyes.
No I'm not here to argue, in fact I'm out of here after this! Thank you Eman for taking the time to explain your perspective, I do think I understand it. My program is 2 weeks hard, 1 week de-load, 1 week recovery. I do hypertrophy throughout the first 3 weeks, I just change the some of the movements and rep ranges for the main lifts. If the wide-world of steroids can't possibly provide a cycle to match my program, then I'll be damned.

Louie Simmons is a strength training expert, and even in the powerlifting world he's a bit controversial. As far as steroids go, he has no clue. He believes HGH is a money making scam. Not generic Chinese GH, he actually thinks that all GH is fake and has no benefit.

I told you what cycle to use that fits your training regimen. A simple test cycle is sufficient. With that said, your training outline still doesn't make much sense. Deload one week, "recovery week" the next? Hypertrophy and strength phases within the same training block? These are the kind of things that people in this thread saw and said you're not prepared for a cycle. I think you can get benefits from just a wellness point of view but your training plan needs some work to be honest.

I have nothing against Bill Roberts either, btw. I just don't agree with everything he's ever written. Tren only cycles, 2 week on/off cycles, etc. It's an over complicated way of using PED's when you can do a more proven cycle.

 

[TheDogSoldier]

Thanks guys, it seems I misunderstood the big picture of what aas is supposed to do.
I will carry on training and experiment with 3 on, 1 deload, and devote a whole block to either hypertrophy or strength, probably 2 or 3 blocks hypertrophy to one strength.
@Eman is there a write up of the cycle you have mentioned?
Thanks again guys!

 

[Morefyah]

Thanks guys, it seems I misunderstood the big picture of what aas is supposed to do.
I will carry on training and experiment with 3 on, 1 deload, and devote a whole block to either hypertrophy or strength, probably 2 or 3 blocks hypertrophy to one strength.
@Eman is there a write up of the cycle you have mentioned?
Thanks again guys!

Your biggest downfall is your not eating enough! Also your “program” doesn’t need to be so complicated. Look into layne Norton Phat program or if your up for it a John Meadows program. If you consistently eat more and lift heavy you will see results. Then when your ready and have done more research on AAS suppression and pct. Experiment with a test only cycle @ 400-500mg wk. Even if this is the only cycle you ever run, you will most likely recover fine.
Eat, Eat Eat!!!

 

[Eman]

Thanks guys, it seems I misunderstood the big picture of what aas is supposed to do.
I will carry on training and experiment with 3 on, 1 deload, and devote a whole block to either hypertrophy or strength, probably 2 or 3 blocks hypertrophy to one strength.
@Eman is there a write up of the cycle you have mentioned?
Thanks again guys!

Google undulating periodization for some ideas on setting up a program. You can devote a portion to accumulation and a portion to intensification.

There are a lot of write ups on first cycles... But I'm not sure what you mean by write up exactly. It would basically just look like:

Wk 1-10 or 12 : 400mg Test E or Cyp
Wk 1-4, 5 or 6 : 50mg anavar daily

Then PCT starts a few weeks after last pin, depending on how long you cycle.