MESO-Rx Exclusive Bill Roberts 2on 4 off cycle theory

[meatmeat]

Thank you very much for the reply.

I had my blood taken yesterday - before cycle. I will also be having it taken about 4 days into PCT, the doc at the clinic is also interested to see if suppression actually is avoided through this protocol.
If I am not suppressed at that point I will do 2on/4off with dbol. And mirror this for dbol + var cycles.

Obviously the goal for this is to retain more mass than I would be able to if I just took the compounds in one long cycle. So hopefully that will be the case.
I know this is considered to be a mute/noob question but does anyone have any evidence to suggest how much I may gain off the whole protocol listed above? My diet and training will be in check.
I've only managed to find one proper log for 2on/2off and the gains were around 3lbs per rotation. Although I'm dubious about his diet and his goal was 'strength'.

 

[meatmeat]

I also meant to ask, will I do any damage if I train a muscle while experiencing injection pain in that muscle? Infections aside.

 

[Bill Roberts]

The last injection should be Day 10, given that it's the propionate ester and the amount that you are using.

Four days into PCT is very early to start testing; at that point LH would be the only thing useful to test for, as arguably testosterone levels might still owe something to the previous testosterone propionate use.

Testing after 7 days of PCT would be more useful I think.

100 mg/day testosterone propionate is really too low for anything like dramatic effects. If Dianabol is on hand, adding 50 mg/day would give a total usage enough for the cycle to be expected to have fine results.

It may be in some cases that a painful injection causes a localized injury where training the muscle physically aggravates the problem, but personally I've never had that.

 

[The Dutchman]

Hello,

I'm brand new here. I'm 41 yrs old and have been lifting drugfree for 20 yrs consistently. My current BW is 96 kg, 10% BF. (BP: 130 / SQ: 160 / DL: 200)

I'm interested in the short cycles, as they seem to be able to minimize unwanted sides for my age (lipids and slow recovery) and can provide the slow moderate gains I'm after. As for gains, I'm more interested in strength than sheer mass. I'm toying with the following idea:

wk1:
- 1x200 mg NPP / 1x100 mg NPP
- 20 mg Dbol ED (2 doses)

wk2:
- 1x100 mg NPP
- 20 mg Dbol ED (2 doses)

wk3&4
- 10 mg Dbol ED (morningdose)

QUESTIONS:
1: would it be less effective if I used one shot of the long estered Deca (400 mg) once in wk1 instead of "all" the NPP shots?

2: Is there any need or use for the incorporation of Clomid?

3: Are there superior alternatives to Deca in this cycle (Primo, Tren A, EQ)? I know Tren A has a synergy with Dbol.

Being a Dutchman, I appologise for any flaws in my writing. Thanks in advance for your help and advice.

 

[Bill Roberts]

1) Clomid is very preferably used in weeks 3 and 4.

2) Nandrolone should not be used. Trenbolone is a far better choice. I have never done it with Primo but it has been done successfully when combined with Dianabol or Anadrol. 800-900 mg on Day 1, 150 mg/day on Days 2-5, and that's it. It's not as effective as using trenbolone acetate. Another option is Masteron propionate, 300 mg on Day 1, then 100 mg/day through Day 10.

Regular Masteron (the enanthate) could probably be used, at same dosage schedule as Primobolan above, but this is untried to my knowledge.

Also, the morning-only Dianabol use in weeks 3 and 4 really shouldn't be done. It can be done, but in the years since the article has been found to slow recovery compared to not doing it, and it's also been proven unnecessary.

 

[Millard]

1) 2) Nandrolone should not be used. T

Just to confirm, is there something intrinsic to parent compound nandrolone itself causing recovery problems and not the long-acting esters in which it is often available e.g. nandrolone decanoate?

 

[Millard]

Hello,

I'm brand new here. I'm 41 yrs old and have been lifting drugfree for 20 yrs consistently. My current BW is 96 kg, 10% BF. (BP: 130 / SQ: 160 / DL: 200)

Congratulations - good numbers! I'm curious why you decided (after 20 years training) to begin AAS?

 

[Bill Roberts]

Yes, it is guesswork as to why nandrolone does this, but it is the nandrolone rather than the ester, as NPP can cause the same problem.

And on the ester, for example testosterone decanoate doesn't cause this problem though half-life should be close (if anything perhaps longer for the testosterone ester), or the even-longer-acting boldenone undecylenate also does not.

The long acting esters of anything do impair recovery so long as levels are still comparable to or high relative to physiological levels of testosterone, but they don't have the persistent-past-that adverse effect that nandrolone so often does.

On the guesswork, my best guess is blaming progestagenic activity. Women who have used progestin based birth control often say it takes many, many months to get back to normal afterwards. Not that that proves anything, but it at least suggests such a mechanism could exist.

But whatever the reason, nandrolone is not something to use if fast recovery is valued highly.

And the 2-week cycles are really dependent on fast recovery.

 

[The Dutchman]

1) Clomid is very preferably used in weeks 3 and 4.

2) Nandrolone should not be used. Trenbolone is a far better choice. I have never done it with Primo but it has been done successfully when combined with Dianabol or Anadrol. 800-900 mg on Day 1, 150 mg/day on Days 2-5, and that's it. It's not as effective as using trenbolone acetate. Another option is Masteron propionate, 300 mg on Day 1, then 100 mg/day through Day 10.

Regular Masteron (the enanthate) could probably be used, at same dosage schedule as Primobolan above, but this is untried to my knowledge.

Also, the morning-only Dianabol use in weeks 3 and 4 really shouldn't be done. It can be done, but in the years since the article has been found to slow recovery compared to not doing it, and it's also been proven unnecessary.

Thank you very much for the quick reply and helpfull answers. Could you fill me in on the Clomid dosage? As for the Primo: that sounds like an awfull lot of substance for a rookie. I'm inclined towards the Tren A.

 

[The Dutchman]

Congratulations - good numbers! I'm curious why you decided (after 20 years training) to begin AAS?

Thank you! As for the " why"; I'm not really sure, I guess it's plain curiosity. Although I've always liked the idea of being a life time drug and supplementfree lifter, a part of me want's to feel how it is like to be "on". Maybe it has to do with wanting to have experienced everything that this sport has to "offer". Adding a few ponds to my lifts would be nice too.

Kind regards

 

[Bill Roberts]

Thank you very much for the quick reply and helpfull answers. Could you fill me in on the Clomid dosage? As for the Primo: that sounds like an awfull lot of substance for a rookie. I'm inclined towards the Tren A.

On Clomid, 300 mg on Day 15 (the first day of recovery) and 50 mg/day thereafter for 2 weeks. Longer is optional. There's no point in more than 4 weeks.

Actually the amount of Primobolan given above is less in effect than trenbolone acetate 50 mg/day. The first day's injection sounds like a lot, but this is because it is a slow-release and longer-acting substance.

The problem with Primobolan here is that because of its extended duration of action, injections have to stop fairly soon into the cycle, so the latter part of the cycle doesn't go so much support from the Primobolan, only the oral.

The total Primo used is 1400-1500 mg.

While that's a larger number than the total trenbolone used if using 50 mg/day of trenbolone acetate (700 mg) the trenbolone is more potent and overall it's really "more" steroid even if not in milligrams.

The trenbolone acetate is a fine choice. TA/Dianabol is excellent.

 

[The Dutchman]

Thanks again. I understand the math on the amount (and potency) of the Primo; it just sounds like a lot of volume. Another problem would be the uncertainty of authenticity, since it's going to be UG.

I don't quite follow the total dosage on the Tren A yet (sorry for that). Jim, your case report's subject, only got a total of 500mg. Or was the dosage regime for day two (not described) similar to day one?

Anyway, could I get away with lower dosages and still have sufficient supraphysiological androgen levels for gains, with:

d1 : 100mg TA / 20 mg D (divided)
d2-10 : 50mg TA / 20 mg D (divided)
d11-14: 20 mg D (divided)
d15 : 300 mg Clo
d16-19: 50 mg Clo

Is it correct that with these low dosages of D, the Cytadren (case report) is not needed?

Again, thanks in advance. Kind regards

 

[Bill Roberts]

In the above post I miscalculated the total amount of TA used at 50 mg/day: it's 600 mg when injecting through Day 11.

Looking back at that article, I see for the first time, after all these years, that there's a typo in the schedule: where it reads Days 3-11 it should read Days 2-11. As is, Day 2 just doesn't exist there, as you point out! I

It's 100 mg on Day 1, then 50 mg/day for the following 10 days on the schedule ending on Day 11. So that totals 600 mg.

One can also do Day 12 it turns out, in which case the total is 650 mg.

If you make the TA yourself from Finaplix-H then the authenticity is certain: agreed that UG Primobolan is uncertain. If the trenbolone acetate would be from a UG, I don't know which would be more likely to not be as claimed.

Your program would work pretty well.

I'd agree that an antiaromatase is not needed when the Dianabol is reduced to only 20 mg/day.

Cytadren is obsolete these days as an antiaromatase. At the time of the article, Arimidex was hard to get and excruciatingly expensive.

You know, between that typo and the obsolete aspect with the Cytadren and the morning-only Dianabol use, while it's fine for articles to be what they were when written, I really should write a post-script for it clarifying these matters that have changed. (And fix that typo within the text.) I will do so.

 

[The Dutchman]

In the above post I miscalculated the total amount of TA used at 50 mg/day: it's 600 mg when injecting through Day 11.

Looking back at that article, I see for the first time, after all these years, that there's a typo in the schedule: where it reads Days 3-11 it should read Days 2-11. As is, Day 2 just doesn't exist there, as you point out! I

It's 100 mg on Day 1, then 50 mg/day for the following 10 days on the schedule ending on Day 11. So that totals 600 mg.

One can also do Day 12 it turns out, in which case the total is 650 mg.

If you make the TA yourself from Finaplix-H then the authenticity is certain: agreed that UG Primobolan is uncertain. If the trenbolone acetate would be from a UG, I don't know which would be more likely to not be as claimed.

Your program would work pretty well.

I'd agree that an antiaromatase is not needed when the Dianabol is reduced to only 20 mg/day.

Cytadren is obsolete these days as an antiaromatase. At the time of the article, Arimidex was hard to get and excruciatingly expensive.

You know, between that typo and the obsolete aspect with the Cytadren and the morning-only Dianabol use, while it's fine for articles to be what they were when written, I really should write a post-script for it clarifying these matters that have changed. (And fix that typo within the text.) I will do so.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. It was not my intention to give you more work, but -being a scientist myself- I can only respect the fact that you're willing to revise; your work is very visible on the web and your authority on this subject is clear.

Your remark on the authenticity of UG TA got me thinking. Making it myself is totally new for me (as are steroids as a whole), so I'm going to take the time to read up on this.

Thanks for helping me out so far.

Kind regards

 

[Bill Roberts]

You're welcome! And best regards to you!