Bill Roberts PCT?

[wastedmuscle]

Hey all,

So I have been reading posts by the well known Bill Roberts and he suggests a pct of 25 mg clomid and 10 mg Nolva ED for four weeks for a simple test cycle.

I am running a simple test cycle for 10 weeks at 400 mgs with hcg twice a week and arimidex.

Is this pct okay? I love the lower doses of the serms.

Clomid 25 mg 4 weeks
Nolva 10 mg 4 weeks

 

[Dr JIM]

Understand there is are many ways to institute PCT from AI's, SERMS and HCG or just "cold turkey". Now before you balk just know cold turkey is just as tested as ANY of the above fella.

The point is there are NO evidence based studies on PCT so all the opinions including mine are based on one's experience. And to that end Dr Scally and BR have extensive experience along those lines, which is exceeded by few.

What we KNOW is AIH is caused by a reduction of gonadotropin secretion bc of the HTPA exposure to AAS.

FACTORS THAT EFFECTS ONE'S HTPA RECOVERY
1) Patients age! VERY IMPORTANT
2) Potency of AAS
3) Dose of AAS
4) Duration of AAS use
5) Number of prior cycles
6) Whether or not full HTPA recovery was achieved bt each cycle

If you are young say less than 30 and that was your first cycle PCT is of limited benefit yet as some will argue it wont hurt. The latter is true providing you can tolerate the adverse effects of SERMS (as some can NOT) and can afford SERMS. Well you shouldn't be cycling anything but chicken it the latter is the case.

So it depends upon your situation really, but it sounds like a single SERM will be more than adequate IMO!

 

[Dr JIM]

Incidentally there is one aspect about BR I have developed an ever increasing appreciation for, which is his delight in uncovering the LEAST amount of AAS, SERMs, AI's HCG etc that may be effective.

That's in contradistinction to what MOST in the BB world are after, which is how far one can push the PED envelope before the risks far exceed the benefits!
I mean is a 10% increase in gains "worth" a tripling of the adverse effects one may experience? IMO NO WAY!

 

[Burrr]

Bill Roberts knows his stuff. The PCT is OK.
Jim is also correct, that you could probably recover from one SERM, or even no SERMs.
Taking both nolva and clomid together are thought to have a synergistic relationship and out perform a single SERM.

 

[wastedmuscle]

Understand there is are many ways to institute PCT from AI's, SERMS and HCG or just "cold turkey". Now before you balk just know cold turkey is just as tested as ANY of the above fella.

The point is there are NO evidence based studies on PCT so all the opinions including mine are based on one's experience. And to that end Dr Scally and BR have extensive experience along those lines, which is exceeded by few.

What we KNOW is AIH is caused by a reduction of gonadotropin secretion bc of the HTPA exposure to AAS.

FACTORS THAT EFFECTS ONE'S HTPA RECOVERY
1) Patients age! VERY IMPORTANT
2) Potency of AAS
3) Dose of AAS
4) Duration of AAS use
5) Number of prior cycles
6) Whether or not full HTPA recovery was achieved bt each cycle

If you are young say less than 30 and that was your first cycle PCT is of limited benefit yet as some will argue it wont hurt. The latter is true providing you can tolerate the adverse effects of SERMS (as some can NOT) and can afford SERMS. Well you shouldn't be cycling anything but chicken it the latter is the case.

So it depends upon your situation really, but it sounds like a single SERM will be more than adequate IMO!

Wow, a Dr Jim reply! Thanks for replying here, I have read a ton of your comments and they're very much appreciated.

I am 35, never used Peds, testosterone in 500 range for my pre-cycle labs, natty training for 16 years (minor breaks during grad schooling years).

I will use test cyp 400 mgs twice a week with hcg 250 twice per week and arimidex throughout cycle. This is for 10 weeks. Then wait 14 days and pct with Bill Roberts protocol.

I was surprised to read that you believd one will recover without pct on the type of cycle I am running, but I thought about it, and history does show that very minimal cycles (ala old school body builders' cycles) did not have pct. as you pointed out, many variables apply that very much could change outcomes.

To your point regarding lack of evidence based studies, this is a shame. Being that at Johns Hopkins we can see studies of micro-dosing LSD in order to combat ptsd in trauma survivors, you would think that research on steroid cycles and pct would be acceptable and not that taboo. This is a shame because having tangible evidence based research would be extremely helpful.

 

[wastedmuscle]

Bill Roberts knows his stuff. The PCT is OK.
Jim is also correct, that you could probably recover from one SERM, or even no SERMs.
Taking both nolva and clomid together are thought to have a synergistic relationship and out perform a single SERM.

Thanks Burr for the reply. I do intend to use clomid at 25 and Nolva at 10 ED for four weeks during PCT. If I notice heavy emotional sides, then I may switch to Nolva alone at a higher dose. PCT, specifically the emotional sides, scare me very excessively! I have spent a year reading PCT nightmare stories. I pray to whatever energy source is amongst us that everything will go smooth.

 

[Mr.B66]

I share your appreciation for Dr Jim, i try to read everything he posts as i feel he is truly a wealth of knowledge. That being said, i started using Ped's in the late 80's and would run 8-12 week cycles without pct and recovered every time as did my friends. Of course we never ran high dose cycles in those days ( i still don't) and we made great gains on 200mg once per week. In fact i read the training logs of alot of others here and they will run a min of 500mg test per wk with other compounds on top of that and honestly they dont make any better gains than we did at 200mg per wk. and this use of high doses could be why they don't recover as easy as we did. I mean, we would just taper off and after a few months, back to normal while keeping about 20-30% of our gains. Fact is we never thought much of it.
Of course I'm NOT saying you shouldn't pct, just saying recovery is most definantly possible without it. But as Dr Jim said age is a big factor. In my 20's and 30's recovery was pretty easy but now in my 40's its deff tougher but still doable and i do use pct now cause i believe the older user needs all the help we can get.
Good luck on your cycle !!

 

[wastedmuscle]

Of course we never ran high dose cycles in those days ( i still don't) and we made great gains on 200mg once per week. In fact i read the training logs of alot of others here and they will run a min of 500mg test per wk with other compounds on top of that and honestly they dont make any better gains than we did at 200mg per wk.

Bodybuilding today seems to take the Drive thru restaurant approach where bigger sizes is better. Since my research began I found only about 15 percent of people encouraged test doses under 500 Mgs. The lower doses seem practical and more safe.

I hope that my low dose pct will get me on track and I will not suffer the many side effects a lot of the big dosed pct users get. I am prone to moderate anxiety/depression but have it in check and do not need meds or anything like that, but I am scared of the clomid.

 

[wastedmuscle]

Btw I meant to say I am take 400 mgs total each week. Injections twice a week at 200 mgs each injection.

I wanted to go lower to 300 mgs of test a week but i got a lot of shit for wanting such a low dose.

 

[Getbignotdietrying]

Incidentally there is one aspect about BR I have developed an ever increasing appreciation for, which is his delight in uncovering the LEAST amount of AAS, SERMs, AI's HCG etc that may be effective.

That's in contradistinction to what MOST in the BB world are after, which is how far one can push the PED envelope before the risks far exceed the benefits!
I mean is a 10% increase in gains "worth" a tripling of the adverse effects one may experience? IMO NO WAY!

sorry to butt in WM. just taking in some of this knowledge. so Dr. jim, you do NOT agree with using hcg? and think its ok to pct with only one serm? I'm asking because I am running a cycle of test e at 600mg a wk with dbol upfront for 6 wks at 25mg /day and have arimidex and "pharma grade" clomid on hand. I was told by various members to get nolva and start on hcg ASAP. would like to hear your thoughts on this. (you may have answered this 1,000,000 x already on meso) again sorry op for the thread jack

 

[Mr.B66]

Bodybuilding today seems to take the Drive thru restaurant approach where bigger sizes is better. Since my research began I found only about 15 percent of people encouraged test doses under 500 Mgs. The lower doses seem practical and more safe.

I hope that my low dose pct will get me on track and I will not suffer the many side effects a lot of the big dosed pct users get. I am prone to moderate anxiety/depression but have it in check and do not need meds or anything like that, but I am scared of the clomid.

Well i know we are all different, but for me clomid has very little sides, i felt pretty normal, maybe a little more emotional but thats not always a bad thing.

 

[Dr JIM]

sorry to butt in WM. just taking in some of this knowledge. so Dr. jim, you do NOT agree with using hcg? and think its ok to pct with only one serm? I'm asking because I am running a cycle of test e at 600mg a wk with dbol upfront for 6 wks at 25mg /day and have arimidex and "pharma grade" clomid on hand. I was told by various members to get nolva and start on hcg ASAP. would like to hear your thoughts on this. (you may have answered this 1,000,000 x already on meso) again sorry op for the thread jack

While the data on Clomid is modest and almost exclusively involves therapy for hypogonadatropic hypogonadism the evidence for Nolva is minimal at best with most of it involving animal models.

(Moreover some of the Novla data reveals conflicting results such as a decrease in gonadotropin secretion).

Consequently although I'm not a big "fan" of Novla I doubt it hurts but am certainly not convinced it helps either.

I only recommend it's use as initial combination therapy in those folk who have cycled for PROLONGED periods and are expected to have, or have already demonstrated an ineffective HTPA recovery when Clomid is used exclusively in optimal doses.

Regarding HCG, I've only noted a minimal improvement in patients TT levels when other AAS are being cycled and I suspect that's also the case when supra-physiologic doses of TT are being run.

For these reasons I believe the benefits of HCG are best realized when it's run 1-2 weeks before the end of a cycle or immediately before SERM related PCT.

As an FYI, quite a few folk also use an AI during this HCG interval to control the E-2 rise which seems reasonable, especially as a precursor to PCT.

Yes I've been asked AND have answered this question on well over ONE MILLION occasions and my response to your request makes it a MILLION and ONE, but who is counting, lol

I think it's also very important to realize the cost of some of these therapies can really become excessive and in some instances unecessary.

 

[Getbignotdietrying]

While the data on Clomid is modest and almost exclusively involves therapy for hypogonadatropic hypogonadism the evidence for Nolva is minimal at best with most of it involving animal models.

(Moreover some of the Novla data reveals conflicting results such as a decrease in gonadotropin secretion).

Consequently although I'm not a big "fan" of Novla I doubt it hurts but am certainly not convinced it helps either.

I only recommend it's use as initial combination therapy in those folk who have cycled for PROLONGED periods and are expected to have, or have already demonstrated an ineffective HTPA recovery when Clomid is used exclusively in optimal doses.

Regarding HCG, I've only noted a minimal improvement in patients TT levels when other AAS are being cycled and I suspect that's also the case when supra-physiologic doses of TT are being run.

For these reasons I believe the benefits of HCG are best realized when it's run 1-2 weeks before the end of a cycle or immediately before SERM related PCT.

As an FYI, quite a few folk also use an AI during this HCG interval to control the E-2 rise which seems reasonable, especially as a precursor to PCT.

Yes I've been asked AND have answered this question on well over ONE MILLION occasions and my response to your request makes it a MILLION and ONE, but who is counting, lol

I think it's also very important to realize the cost of some of these therapies can really become excessive and in some instances unecessary.

lol, thanks for your response good sir. just taking more and more notes!

 

[Northern Nutrition]

Incidentally there is one aspect about BR I have developed an ever increasing appreciation for, which is his delight in uncovering the LEAST amount of AAS, SERMs, AI's HCG etc that may be effective.

That's in contradistinction to what MOST in the BB world are after, which is how far one can push the PED envelope before the risks far exceed the benefits!
I mean is a 10% increase in gains "worth" a tripling of the adverse effects one may experience? IMO NO WAY!

I hit the like button three times, Jim.

Ive been preaching this for years. "Use the least amount of chemical that will produce the same or desired outcome." And this is why i also enjoy most of Bill Roberts ideas and theories related to AAS.

Moving forward to another comment you made above in this thread regarding hCG, I have a question and i hope its not foolish. When you noted the slight improvements of TT while patients were using AAS and hCG, did you note any changes in LH and FSH? If so, and you recall, what were they in general? Increase, decrease, or remain the same?

 

[Dr JIM]

I hit the like button three times, Jim.

Ive been preaching this for years. "Use the least amount of chemical that will produce the same or desired outcome." And this is why i also enjoy most of Bill Roberts ideas and theories related to AAS.

Moving forward to another comment you made above in this thread regarding hCG, I have a question and i hope its not foolish. When you noted the slight improvements of TT while patients were using AAS and hCG, did you note any changes in LH and FSH? If so, and you recall, what were they in general? Increase, decrease, or remain the same?

Its not surprising IMO bc those studies that have investigated the benefit (directly or indirectly) of HCG in TRT paatients reveal a diminishing rate of return as the TRT dose increases. Some have combated this problem by increasing the HCG dosage but the fact is the testes can only produce a certain quantity of testosterone with or wo HCG.

And what's most important is it seems cyclist have ALL EXCEED the androgen level in which an increase of gonadotropins (whether HCG, FSH or LH) will significantly enhance endogenous testosterone secretion. .

The answer to your question is BOTH TT and LH fail to increase at the "expected rate when BB are cycling AAS regardless of whether HCG is used. The absolute increase varied from 50ng/dl to around 200ng/dl depending upon the HCG dose AND the AAS being cycled. One patient increased his TT level by ONLY 20ng/dl after pinning 10,000 iu of HCG, but he was cycling TREN! (Of interest one could argue most of these patients DID achieve a statistically significant benefit from HCG but the effect would not have been clinically significant and that is an very important distinction, IMO)

To that end I'll readily admit the evidence I am referring to was collated from a variety of patients following a simplistic protocol AND I would encourage others to add to what I believe refutes the sentiment HCG is useful DURING a cycle bc it diminishes Leydig cell atrophy. In other words although HCG MAY limit Leydig cell atrophy the benefit is not realized thru enhanced TT secretion, during cycling intervals.

Seriously guy the testing is simple, just run any AAS except TT and obtain a pre and post HCG testosterone level.

 

[Dr JIM]

lol, thanks for your response good sir. just taking more and more notes!

Stick around and learn mate! Meso has MANY members who contribute in their own way, some bc of their experience, education, profession, and some are even willing to share their PED ERRORS.

It's unfortunate some discount this notion, but the latter is much easier to accomplish than achieving optimal benefit from either AAS or PEDs!

 

[Northern Nutrition]

Thanks for your explanation Jim.

To piggyback on previous question, do you feel that including hCG on-cycle has significant benefits compared to introducing it last three or four weeks in terms of a "blast"?

Edit: obviously im only looking for an opinion as im not convinced there is a right or wrong way to approach this. however, my belief is that on-cycle hCG is beneficial in terms of reducing testicular atrophy during AAS cycle, rather than "waking up" testies afterwards.

 

[Dr JIM]

Thanks for your explanation Jim.

1) To piggyback on previous question, do you feel that including hCG on-cycle has significant benefits compared to introducing it l

2) last three or four weeks in terms of a "blast"?

3) Edit: obviously im only looking for an opinion as im not convinced there is a right or wrong way to approach this. however, my belief is that on-cycle hCG is beneficial in terms of reducing testicular atrophy during AAS cycle, rather than "waking up" testies afterwards.

1) NO, OR if HCG is of benefit it's minimal and probably not justifiable, esp considering the cost of HCG.

2) I thought I mentioned this but yes I suspect HCG would be most useful towards the END of a cycle and using high end "blast" dosages as Dr Scally has opined, seems reasonable particularly for high end dosage or duration cycles.

3) I really don't believe this point is debatable anymore bc the enhanced volume which occurs has been shown to be due to a reversal of stromal and Seritoli cell atrophy, although Leydig cells are also effected to some extent.

 

[Northern Nutrition]

Thanks again for your response, Jim.

 

[Dr JIM]

Thanks again for your response, Jim.

Hey sorry if I wasn't clear earlier, but one post becomes another and evolves into something else which morphs into an alternative meaning and thereafter is converted, contorted and convoluted to such an extent I even forget WTF I was commenting on