Bill Roberts, Q regarding Cl I vs. Cl II steroids

[laclark89]

There's a gap in known mechanisms with respect to oxymetholone's primary metabolite, 17α-methyl-5α-androstane-3α,17β-diol, to which it acts as a prodrug per Schänzer. While I have conducted preliminary target modeling for the drug metabolite, there's no in vitro data for it per se, not to mind in vivo human data, besides that which is inferred from oxymetholone trials.

However, from what we do know, the manner in which trenbolone combines with oxymetholone synergistically is unfavorable and relates to cardiovascular harms, like trenbolone's antagonism of MR & oxymetholone's inhibition of 11β-HSD2.

Sorry last post was for you ofcourse.

 

[readalot]

I believe it still is prescribed?

Oxandroline no longer marketed by Pharma in US. Still available through compounding pharmacies for the time being.

 

[Type-IIx]

I had high Hope's for test tren anadrol, turned in to higher likelyhood for heart failure lol.

How about this anavar and wound healing
I just cant come to a conclusion no matter how much I read or research, pud med eccetra. Many members could probably benefit from your input on the subject. I believe it still is prescribed?

Oxandrolone Efficacy in Wound Healing in Burned and Decubitus Ulcer Patients: A Systematic Review - PMC

Wounds with delayed or impaired healing represent a considerable challenge in medical practice. These patients develop a sustained hypermetabolic and catabolic state, directly impacting the wound healing process. The use of oxandrolone has been ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

View attachment 273771View attachment 273772

Wound healing is a medical aspect of this drug's effects that is not within my remit or purview.

 

[readalot]

Oxandroline no longer marketed by Pharma in US. Still available through compounding pharmacies for the time being.

Sorry for typo...oxandrolone

 

[guestpics]

There's a gap in known mechanisms with respect to oxymetholone's primary metabolite, 17α-methyl-5α-androstane-3α,17β-diol, to which it acts as a prodrug per Schänzer. While I have conducted preliminary target modeling for the drug metabolite, there's no in vitro data for it per se, not to mind in vivo human data, besides that which is inferred from oxymetholone trials.

However, from what we do know, the manner in which trenbolone combines with oxymetholone synergistically is unfavorable and relates to cardiovascular harms, like trenbolone's antagonism of MR & oxymetholone's inhibition of 11β-HSD2.

That's crazy. Very unexpected to hear this. It's been the broscience on some boards that dbol and adrol have beneficial synergies with tren. And it's as if you're sort of left to choose between the two based on your training goals.

 

[Type-IIx]

That's crazy. Very unexpected to hear this. It's been the broscience on some boards that dbol and adrol have beneficial synergies with tren. And it's as if you're sort of left to choose between the two based on your training goals.

They combine just fine, but merely additively with respect to muscle anabolism and fat loss.

You must understand that the informal manner in which the term "synergy" is used by the average bro differs from the formal manner in which I use it. I use it as it is used medically, to refer to the phenomenon of greater than additive (1 + 1 > 2) effects with respect to the outcomes we care about (increased muscle mass, decreased fat mass). Synergy is a consequence of different mechanisms acting on the same outcome. Additive effects refer to those which combine, but function through the same mechanisms (1 + 1 = 2).

 

[Juicedhead]

Bill what would be a better stack synergistically speaking. Test, tren, dbol or test, eq, dbol?

 

[laclark89]

The second dosent make sence to me in my little brain. 3 from the same group?
Test tren anadrol u get 1 from each.

 

[Type-IIx]

That's crazy. Very unexpected to hear this. It's been the broscience on some boards that dbol and adrol have beneficial synergies with tren. And it's as if you're sort of left to choose between the two based on your training goals.

I should correct myself, there is some synergy in muscle anabolism because Tren basically synergizes with everything due to its decreasing GR number, at minimum.

There are unknown potential synergistic combinatory effects because oxymetholone's 17α-methyl-5α-androstane-3α,17β-diol, to which it acts writ large as a prodrug to, is not well described mechanistically.

We can definitely say that there is additional synergy in cardiac harms due to trenbolone's antagonism of MR & oxymetholone's inhibition of 11β-HSD2.

But the reason that the two used (alone together) in combination is particularly unfavorable is that neither supplants T's role in aromatization or 5α-reduction, & both are progestagenic.

 

[Type-IIx]

I should correct myself, there is some synergy in muscle anabolism because Tren basically synergizes with everything due to its decreasing GR number, at minimum.

There are unknown potential synergistic combinatory effects because oxymetholone's 17α-methyl-5α-androstane-3α,17β-diol, to which it acts writ large as a prodrug to, is not well described mechanistically.

We can definitely say that there is additional synergy in cardiac harms due to trenbolone's antagonism of MR & oxymetholone's inhibition of 11β-HSD2.

But the reason that the two used (alone together) in combination is particularly unfavorable is that neither supplants T's role in aromatization or 5α-reduction, & both are progestagenic.

Fuck.

I fucked up again here. I need to put my thinking cap back on with this oxymetholone data, it's not so fresh:

Oxymetholone is probably not progestagenic, actually. It's just (indirectly) estrogenic.

While 17α-methyl-5α-androstane-3α,17β-diol has a > 97% probability for PR binding, it's a likelier ER-α ligand. Note that 17α-methyl-5α-androstane-3α,17β-diol is also a methyltestosterone (MT) metabolite. MT is regarded as potently estrogenic despite its being 17α-alkylated, a feature that hinders aromatase activity by ~2/3 & aromatizing to 17α-methylestradiol. 17α-methylestradiol is actually not so potent. Note that 17α-methylestradiol is not to be confused with 7α-methylestradiol, MENT's highly potent aromatic product. 17α-methylestradiol is only roughly 35% more potent than estradiol.

So, it might, indirectly, contribute to some aromatization function but not 5α-reduction, and it's not gestagenic.

 

[AlexDavis43]

They combine just fine, but merely additively with respect to muscle anabolism and fat loss.

You must understand that the informal manner in which the term "synergy" is used by the average bro differs from the formal manner in which I use it. I use it as it is used medically, to refer to the phenomenon of greater than additive (1 + 1 > 2) effects with respect to the outcomes we care about (increased muscle mass, decreased fat mass). Synergy is a consequence of different mechanisms acting on the same outcome. Additive effects refer to those which combine, but function through the same mechanisms (1 + 1 = 2).

Agree wrt to synergy.

If you make the same gains on 500 mg test as you do on 250 mg test + 250 mg deca, then they're additive.

If you make more gains on the combo despite same total 500 mg gear per week, then they're synergistic.

 

[laclark89]

Agree wrt to synergy.

If you make the same gains on 500 mg test as you do on 250 mg test + 250 mg deca, then they're additive.

If you make more gains on the combo despite same total 500 mg gear per week, then they're synergistic.

Ok then ur saying synergy only happens when one compound is stronger than the test mg per mg.

 

[AlexDavis43]

Ok then ur saying synergy only happens when one compound is stronger than the test mg per mg.

Good point. Perhaps I misspoke.

If you gain X pounds on test and Y pounds on another anabolic, then gaining the same on 0.5X + 0.5Y would be additive.

Gets more complicated when you factor in other drug-specific effects, reducing side effects per pound of muscle gained, et cetera

 

[Type-IIx]

The second dosent make sence to me in my little brain. 3 from the same group?
Test tren anadrol u get 1 from each.View attachment 273863

That model is broscience, you may as well ignore it completely.

I have scrutinized it here:

Stacking too many from the same "family"

A few things I began practicing in regards to gear was no orals, and making sure I cover every "angle" during my cycles; taking a test, 19-nor, and a DHT drug.; it's why I do my Test/Deca/Primo to bulk, and now I'm currently on Test/Tren E/ Primo to cut. Is it stupid or overkill to take, lets...

thinksteroids.com

 

[Type-IIx]

Good point. Perhaps I misspoke.

If you gain X pounds on test and Y pounds on another anabolic, then gaining the same on 0.5X + 0.5Y would be additive.

Gets more complicated when you factor in other drug-specific effects, reducing side effects per pound of muscle gained, et cetera

I give a primer on my framework for rational AAS combination here:

https://thinksteroids.com/community/posts/3130703

 

[guestpics]

Ty. Many informative posts. But I can't help it, my brain will not accept writing
1+1 > 2 because it's not >2. I think it more correct to say
a+b > 2 ∨ a+b = 2

 

[Type-IIx]

Ty. Many informative posts. But I can't help it, my brain will not accept writing
1+1 > 2 because it's not >2. I think it more correct to say
a+b > 2 ∨ a+b = 2

The proper mathematical expression to describe the phenomenon is

s(a + b) > a + b s > 1

Where a = drug 1, b = drug 2, s = factor of synergy between a & b

 

[Jin23]

The second dosent make sence to me in my little brain. 3 from the same group?
Test tren anadrol u get 1 from each.View attachment 273863

Ah, there's that influencer populist data again. Besides what @Type-IIx said, why would the fact that compounds are from the same "class" of drugs make combining them useless? They are still different drugs and thus have varying pharmacodynamics. That being said, some effects might be additive, like for instance; the antiestrogenic effects of mast and primo, if you so chose to combine them, is definitely an important factor ... But not all effects are the same or similar, so you still need to know each drugs individual mechanisms of action irrespective of their "drug class".

 

[Juicedhead]

Ah, there's that influencer populist data again. Besides what @Type-IIx said, why would the fact that compounds are from the same "class" of drugs make combining them useless? They are still different drugs and thus have varying pharmacodynamics. That being said, some effects might be additive, like for instance; the antiestrogenic effects of mast and primo, if you so chose to combine them, is definitely an important factor ... But not all effects are the same or similar, so you still need to know each drugs individual mechanisms of action irrespective of their "drug class".

Yeah this is true. I think you could have a great synergy with 2 test based, and 1 dht. Or even 3 from the test group. The issue for me is I dont like 19 nors.. or dhts that much haha. I just dont feel good on 19 nors and dhts seem to give me more side effects. But any testosterone derived drug i always respond well too and feel the best using. I think it again comes down to the person and what they respond well to using. Ideally yeah it would be the best to stack one from each group but for me I would rather do like test, eq, and dbol. I feel really good on that stack and can eat plenty of food no problem.

 

[Type-IIx]

ideally yeah it would be the best to stack one from each group

No, see, that's where you're wrong bro. The model is a fiction that exists in the ether, holds a mythos, a mystique among bodybuilders.... and yet is totally fucking conjured out of someone's imagination.

I could have come up with something equally valid by just classifiying test/mast/tren in separate classes, place nandrolone in the 19-nortestosterone group, and then throwing darts at a dartboard to pick the rest at random.