Blood Pressure, an Experiment

[malfeasance]

Some of you know I stopped bodybuilding (well, competing) recently due to blood pressure. I have posted many times that I usually keep TRT between 100-125mg/wk (cypionate ester).

This usually has my blood pressure in the 130s over 80s (controlled by blood pressure mediation). Sometimes 120s over 80 or so, depending upon bodyweight and cardio.

So a few weeks ago I lowered the TRT dose to 75 mg. Blood pressure dropped slightly and stayed consistently around 127/82 for a couple weeks.

After a couple of weeks I stopped injecting testosterone 10 days ago.

I also increased cardio (not anything extreme, just be sure to wake up several days a week early and hit fasted cardio on a stair climbing, escalator looking machine - those machines do not play around).

I dropped about 6 pounds, nothing major.

I am still weight training.

Blood pressure this morning, ten days after last injection of 75mg - 113/62







A few notes:

This is all on blood pressure medication - dose and type did not change.

This is just one person, on one day, ten days out. It proves nothing.

I have no intention of doing without testosterone on a permanent basis, and I am not without it now. It is just lower than normal. I will not go down to super low to nothing. This is just an experiment.

There are also a couple of confounding factors, here. Lower testosterone, lower bodyweight, cardio more consistent. The bodyweight and cardio are not large changes, however. The testosterone is. I normally do cardio, and I have lost this much weight or more before.

I'll keep experimenting on myself and update it here.

I am probably going to continue losing bodyweight.

I am not sure yet what I am going to do about the testosterone.

But I will let you all know after I do it.

 

[malfeasance]

According to Pfizer, the half life of testosterone cypionate (intramuscularly injected) is 8 days.

DEPO®-TESTOSTERONE (testosterone cypionate) Clinical Pharmacology Patient information | Pfizer Medical Information - US

DEPO®-TESTOSTERONE (testosterone cypionate) Clinical Pharmacology Patient information CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY Endogenous androgens are responsible for normal growth and development of the male sex organs and for maintenance of secondary sex characteristics. These effects include growth and...

www.pfizermedicalinformation.com

So 10 days out from a 75 mg injection, I still have testosterone in my system.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Keep cardio in and I bet adding test back keeps you at a reasonable BP.

 

[DECLAN]

What about diet, any changes?

I have also played around with test doses and cardio regiments even bp medication dose adjustments; what affected my bp readings the most is my food intake.

The cleaner it is, lower sodium and less carbs lowered my readings significantly that i have ti cut telmisartan to 20mg a day sometimes. When I bloat and hold more water my heart rate and bp climbs so I have to up my bp dosage too.

 

[Millard]

Some of you know I stopped bodybuilding (well, competing) recently due to blood pressure. I have posted many times that I usually keep TRT between 100-125mg/wk (cypionate ester).

This usually has my blood pressure in the 130s over 80s (controlled by blood pressure mediation). Sometimes 120s over 80 or so, depending upon bodyweight and cardio.

So a few weeks ago I lowered the TRT dose to 75 mg. Blood pressure dropped slightly and stayed consistently around 127/82 for a couple weeks.

Thanks for sharing this. I've been doing similar at 100-125mg/wk. And even thinking about dropping a little lower.

Did that study on trans men make you curious about how little weekly TRT dosage men need? Or was it @Type-IIx's suggestions about dosages with least risks?

It's all leading me to wonder about this - bodybuilding with the minimal needed TRT for same results.

I appreciate you going in this direction when it seems the trend is for TRT of 200-400mg/wk as therapeutically-justified since bodybuilders all happen to be extreme "outliers".

 

[readalot]

I appreciate you going in this direction when it seems the trend is for TRT of 200-400mg/wk as therapeutically-justified since bodybuilders all happen to be extreme "outliers".

https://thinksteroids.com/community/media/1689002418388-png.82159/

 

[Sorter]

Did that study on trans men make you curious about how little weekly TRT dosage men need?

Classic Millard

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Thanks for sharing this. I've been doing similar at 100-125mg/wk. And even thinking about dropping a little lower.

Did that study on trans men make you curious about how little weekly TRT dosage men need? Or was it @Type-IIx's suggestions about dosages with least risks?

It's all leading me to wonder about this - bodybuilding with the minimal needed TRT for same results.

I appreciate you going in this direction when it seems the trend is for TRT of 200-400mg/wk as therapeutically-justified since bodybuilders all happen to be extreme "outliers".

Has always been my approach as well but new coach is advising a bit more to keep progressing as a pro; will hope to report back what my thoughts are on the difference in practice between ~150mg and 300 + another drug primarily for estrogen management

 

[Sorter]

Has always been my approach as well but new coach is advising a bit more to keep progressing as a pro; will hope to report back what my thoughts are on the difference in practice between ~150mg and 300 + another drug primarily for estrogen management

Coach for you seems superfluous.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Coach for you seems superfluous.

If you’re trying to go somewhere you’ve never been it’s helpful to have someone who has themselves or has helped others to. Beyond that, an objective eye can make all the difference.

 

[lukiss96]

Is 130's that dangerous srs? Most of use are heavier than the average person not to mention much higher in lean body mass. Body has to feed those muscles. I think many of us are experiencing isolated hypertension so our systollic is higher than normal while diastolic is normal. Mine too are 130's/80. I truly don't believe it's an issue unless I get to 150. Then yes, it's a warning to change something.

For me keeping body fat no more than 16% and weight at or below 230 (100-105kg) seems to help. Hitting 98kg would be ideal at even leaner body fat %.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Is 130's that dangerous srs? Most of use are heavier than the average person not to mention much higher in lean body mass. Body has to feed those muscles. I think many of us are experiencing isolated hypertension so our systollic is higher than normal while diastolic is normal. Mine too are 130's/80. I truly don't believe it's an issue unless I get to 150. Then yes, it's a warning to change something.

For me keeping body fat no more than 16% and weight at or below 230 (100-105kg) seems to do help. Hitting 98kg would be ideal at even leaner body fat %.

Is lower better? Yes. Is like half the country living with BP exceeding 130/80? Yes. Like many things your susceptibility to possible impacts of elevated Bp will be genetic. Risk decision is up to you.

 

[buck]

My reading shows life expectancy seems to start drooping by the time pressures are 115/70. And less is better if there are no adverse effects. Life stye choices seem to make the biggest difference for health. Doesn't take much cardio to have a healthy heart. Mostly seems to be about keeping arteries supple so high pressure is not needed. The more body weight fat or muscle the more miles of veins and capillaries there are which require higher pressures are needed.On 15 mg/day subq my BP this morning was 110/61. That level of T keeps me around 800 on a scale of 300-1000. 20mg/day puts me at over 1500. Then my BP is around 124/72. I am in my 60's and stopped pushing the envelope on things some time back.

 

[malfeasance]

Is 130's that dangerous srs? Most of use are heavier than the average person not to mention much higher in lean body mass. Body has to feed those muscles. I think many of us are experiencing isolated hypertension so our systollic is higher than normal while diastolic is normal. Mine too are 130's/80. I truly don't believe it's an issue unless I get to 150. Then yes, it's a warning to change something.

For me keeping body fat no more than 16% and weight at or below 230 (100-105kg) seems to help. Hitting 98kg would be ideal at even leaner body fat %.

I do not think it is "that dangerous," to be at 130, but it is not the best it could be, and, like you, as my body weight went up, the numbers kept going up. When I pulled the plug I was going to try to come into another show weighing 10 pounds or more on stage than the prior show when I won heavyweight and overall. I was in my 50s. While I won the novice and masters and all of that, I actually won the heavyweight class against younger competitors and then overall. I was pretty psyched. Being old, though, I figured I had a limited time to compete, so . . .

I started my next off season, and I got to 251 pounds. I was looking to get to 260-65, if I could without getting too fat and stay within striking range of a 16 week prep. My blood pressure, however, kept going up. Each and every pound I put on resulted in another small increase in blood pressure. My blood pressure, on telmisartan, was something like 165/95. I am also in my 50s.

I thought, what is it going to look like if I push up to 265 pounds???

I remember that day.

I quit.

I told my wife (who was not happy about it). But I told her I have kids, including little ones, and I am not going to die pursuing another trophy. I tried it. I won. I liked it. I wanted to do more, but it was not something worth dying over.

My blood pressure is doing a lot better now, although I am still on prescribed medication to lower it.

And I do miss being bigger - I saw pictures of myself on a family adventure the other day, when I weighed something like 220, and I thought, wow, I look kind of normal. I mean, you can see that dude in the picture works out, but he looks nothing like he looked three years ago.

But I look way better than I would in a pine box.

 

[malfeasance]

Thanks for sharing this. I've been doing similar at 100-125mg/wk. And even thinking about dropping a little lower.

Did that study on trans men make you curious about how little weekly TRT dosage men need? Or was it @Type-IIx's suggestions about dosages with least risks?

It's all leading me to wonder about this - bodybuilding with the minimal needed TRT for same results.

I appreciate you going in this direction when it seems the trend is for TRT of 200-400mg/wk as therapeutically-justified since bodybuilders all happen to be extreme "outliers".

Experiment was a bit of a failure.

The one day of low reading is isolated to that one day. I lost more weight, and the subsequent blood pressure readings were 120s over 70s. I went 14 days total between shots and gave in and injected another 75 mg on day 14.

Confounding factors this time were a great deal of work related stress, though, so I am not drawing any conclusions. That is what I mean by the experiment was a failure. It is difficult enough to draw any conclusions from a one person experiment, but when you throw in many additional factors it makes the result almost meaningless.

Maybe I will try it again in the future.

There does appear to be a trend, however, to lower blood pressure associated with lower TRT dosage and with lower bodyweight. I am not sure that this is surprising.

I mean, my "BMI" is "obese" somewhere between 220 and 221 pounds. Below 220, I am "overweight" unless I drop down to 183 or lower, and that is the far upper end of "normal." At 251 pounds, I was what they call "clinically severe," the upper end of Class I obesity.

Normal, 183 at the upper part of the range, is almost 40 pounds down from 220, and 68 pounds down from when I called it quits. And that is just to be at the far upper end of normal for bodyweight for my height. "Normal" goes all the way down to 137 pounds.

We can bitch all we want about how BMI does not take into account muscle in body composition, but I don't think your cardiovascular system does, either.

The trans study did help motivate my curiosity (about lower trt, not about trans), but I have been curious about TRT dosage and blood pressure for a long time. It is difficult, however, for me to isolate it for study. I just have too many things going on in my life at the same time. I also was not willing to let the testosterone level drop to the point of sexual dysfunction. My wife knew about skipping the testosterone, and she was being playful about having to put in extra effort around day 12, but she was also making comments about it being time to resume my shots.

 

[malfeasance]

I quit.

I told my wife (who was not happy about it).

Then John Meadows died a few months later. He was younger than me. She quit her sulking about me quitting bodybuilding and came and gave me a hug and told me she knew I made the right decision.

 

[DECLAN]

Experiment was a bit of a failure.

The one day of low reading is isolated to that one day. I lost more weight, and the subsequent blood pressure readings were 120s over 70s. I went 14 days total between shots and gave in and injected another 75 mg on day 14.

Confounding factors this time were a great deal of work related stress, though, so I am not drawing any conclusions. That is what I mean by the experiment was a failure. It is difficult enough to draw any conclusions from a one person experiment, but when you throw in many additional factors it makes the result almost meaningless.

Maybe I will try it again in the future.

There does appear to be a trend, however, to lower blood pressure associated with lower TRT dosage and with lower bodyweight. I am not sure that this is surprising.

I mean, my "BMI" is "obese" somewhere between 220 and 221 pounds. Below 220, I am "overweight" unless I drop down to 183 or lower, and that is the far upper end of "normal." At 251 pounds, I was what they call "clinically severe," the upper end of Class I obesity.

Normal, 183 at the upper part of the range, is almost 40 pounds down from 220, and 68 pounds down from when I called it quits. And that is just to be at the far upper end of normal for bodyweight for my height. "Normal" goes all the way down to 137 pounds.

We can bitch all we want about how BMI does not take into account muscle in body composition, but I don't think your cardiovascular system does, either.

The trans study did help motivate my curiosity (about lower trt, not about trans), but I have been curious about TRT dosage and blood pressure for a long time. It is difficult, however, for me to isolate it for study. I just have too many things going on in my life at the same time. I also was not willing to let the testosterone level drop to the point of sexual dysfunction. My wife knew about skipping the testosterone, and she was being playful about having to put in extra effort around day 12, but she was also making comments about it being time to resume my shots.

If you look at the folks who tend to reach 80’s to 100’s, they are tiny and crouched over with barely any muscles. Additionally, they have hypotension and will pass out if they exert some kind of effort lol.

Anyway, I think you have to trade muscularity for every bit of longevity.

 

[Isrrike]

Hey malf you should try juicing a celery stalk once a day and if that becomes a hassle try celery seed extract. Doesn’t taste as bad as you would think and you can easily chug down a glass or two

 

[readalot]

Last 12 months (although I know better) I went from 100 mg/week TRT in increments of 20mg/week up to 200mg/week by Oct this year. Body mass went from 225 to 245 lb (BF stayed constant at 10% +/-) and was able to keep BP under 125/80. Last 8 weeks I added in the oxandrolone at 25 to start up to 50 mg/day for last 6 weeks. Sure enough even with all the nattokinase and celery/beet juice my BP is now up to 145/85. Pulse pressure has widened. RHR up from 48 to 60 over last year. Body mass currently sits at 252 lb. Muscular obesity just as bad or even worse than fat obesity. More blood volume, more work.

Thank you for this great thread @malfeasance . Cheers with my bottles of aspirin, nattokinase and glass of celery/beet juice. Unfortunately your endothelial cells can't outrun your age.

 

[Logan44551]

I've always had pretty good blood pressure numbers. We hen they did creep up into the 135-140 over 80-90 range I was able to drop 10 points off each with 20-30 minutes walking at 15° incline@4.5 mph every other day.