Blood Pressure, an Experiment

[readalot]

I've always had pretty good blood pressure numbers. We hen they did creep up into the 135-140 over 80-90 range I was able to drop 10 points off each with 20-30 minutes walking at 15° incline@4.5 mph every other day.

I am envious. In addition to 4 to 5 weight training sessions per week I also do 100 to 150 minutes per week in zone 3 Cardio mainly plus lots of walking.

Age seems to be the only knob I can't leverage. Over 500 mg/week total androgens and the BP / Heart parameters start to really tank. Kudos to you side effect resistant specimens. Watch those HRV numbers as well if you have access to ekg or smart watch. Another measurement that really goes to hell.

Treat yourself for the holidays?

Amazon.com

 

[Millard]

Has always been my approach as well but new coach is advising a bit more to keep progressing as a pro; will hope to report back what my thoughts are on the difference in practice between ~150mg and 300 + another drug primarily for estrogen management

I look forward to it and the challenges ahead. I've found your approach to navigating the sport and pro ranks admirable thus far in your careful consideration of risk/reward and balancing your career with family/life.

 

[Millard]

Confounding factors this time were a great deal of work related stress, though, so I am not drawing any conclusions. That is what I mean by the experiment was a failure. It is difficult enough to draw any conclusions from a one person experiment, but when you throw in many additional factors it makes the result almost meaningless.

It's still interesting nonetheless

We can bitch all we want about how BMI does not take into account muscle in body composition, but I don't think your cardiovascular system does, either.

That's the one thing that I've concluded too. It seems unavoidable that we cant' be as big as we want with some type of cardiovascular impact. When bodyweight drops, it's obvious that managing BP becomes easier.

It is difficult, however, for me to isolate it for study. I just have too many things going on in my life at the same time. I also was not willing to let the testosterone level drop to the point of sexual dysfunction. My wife knew about skipping the testosterone, and she was being playful about having to put in extra effort around day 12, but she was also making comments about it being time to resume my shots.

We want it all. And to strike that correct balance. For me, I'd like to keep as much muscle as possible. I've invested decades in bodybuilding and have grudgingly and often reluctantly dropped bodyweight. I've found it necessary for health reasons. Yet I still want to keep that as much of that "look" that I can. Also in my case, I want to maximize cycling performance. And I'm not going to give up anything when it would compromise sexual performance. Balance.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

All I’m hoping is these kids start to appreciate that this is a young man’s game. You can get away with a lot in your 20s. If you want your 30s and 40s to be productive that can’t be the path. This influencer shit is reinforcing their thinking they’re invincible, like we all thought we were, and if they don’t start to learn their issues will be worse than ours are/will be.

 

[DECLAN]

All I’m hoping is these kids start to appreciate that this is a young man’s game. You can get away with a lot in your 20s. If you want your 30s and 40s to be productive that can’t be the path. This influencer shit is reinforcing their thinking they’re invincible, like we all thought we were, and if they don’t start to learn their issues will be worse than ours are/will be.

The problem is the death among influencers is way lower than competitors amateurs and pros alike, thus the public think they are healthier than bodybuilders.

Which is why I think full disclosure of drug use should not be frowned upon, it should not be encouraged either but used as a metric for reference on what is abuse and what is necessary for each goal.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

The problem is the death among influencers is way lower than competitors amateurs and pros alike, thus the public think they are healthier than bodybuilders.

Which is why I think full disclosure of drug use should not be frowned upon, it should not be encouraged either but used as a metric for reference on what is abuse and what is necessary for each goal.

IMO exposure to that info is what led us here because the guys people believe are the ones sharing massive cycles. Kids can’t separate the fact that what a 290lb pro needs from what they should use wanting to get big fast. Nobody wants to believe pros are simply more genetically gifted and more disciplined. It has to be drugs. So they rationalize using a shit ton withoit the knowledge or work ethic to support it

The deaths in bodybuilding are older competitors. And this would get political if I gave my raw opinion on why we’re seeing deaths in the last 2-3 years.

 

[DECLAN]

IMO exposure to that info is what led us here because the guys people believe are the ones sharing massive cycles. Kids can’t separate the fact that what a 290lb pro needs from what they should use wanting to get big fast. Nobody wants to believe pros are simply more genetically gifted and more disciplined. It has to be drugs. So they rationalize using a shit ton withoit the knowledge or work ethic to support it

The deaths in bodybuilding are older competitors. And this would get political if I gave my raw opinion on why we’re seeing deaths in the last 2-3 years.

It might be different where you’re from, but the kids from my gym do sarms for the simple fact that they fear injections. The few 20+ yrs old that do, follow the mpmd thinking that they can become huge using trt doses. Most of the young guys I know who are taking more are local competitors who are trying to grow.

I think the youth today are way smarter and sensible than we think. I don’t think they follow Dallas or Bostin, hence you don’t see teenagers dying from gear related heart attacks. Its the serious bodybuilders who follow this crazy protocols, hence the deaths among the young not just those from the 90’s, which even caused the Washington post article.

Anyway, my experience is just around the limited scope of my area. It’s just my observation.

 

[Mac11wildcat]

It might be different where you’re from, but the kids from my gym do sarms for the simple fact that they fear injections. The few 20+ yrs old that do, follow the mpmd thinking that they can become huge using trt doses. Most of the young guys I know who are taking more are local competitors who are trying to grow.

I think the youth today are way smarter and sensible than we think. I don’t think they follow Dallas or Bostin, hence you don’t see teenagers dying from gear related heart attacks. Its the serious bodybuilders who follow this crazy protocols, hence the deaths among the young not just those from the 90’s, which even caused the Washington post article.

Anyway, my experience is just around the limited scope of my area. It’s just my observation.

Who died that was young? Bostin, yes, he did retarded stuff and knew it. Dallas’ was a congenital issue. The other young-ish guys I know of are Neil and and Luke and were from suicide.

The rest have been to my knowledge into their late 30s and early 40s and those deaths coincided with Covid/the vax. Side effects of gear coupled with dehydration near shoes and the now very well known effects of the vax (and to a lesser degree COVID) and bam, perfect storm.

Gear isn’t going to give you a heart attack at 20 after2 years of use. It’s going to give you one at 40 after 15 years of not minding your health while abusing them. Maybe it’s an anomaly but my gym is filled with early 20s kids stapled with severe acne from gear use looking for Anadrol to add to their first cycle.

 

[DECLAN]

Who died that was young? Bostin, yes, he did retarded stuff and knew it. Dallas’ was a congenital issue. The other young-ish guys I know of are Neil and and Luke and were from suicide.

The rest have been to my knowledge into their late 30s and early 40s and those deaths coincided with Covid/the vax. Side effects of gear coupled with dehydration near shoes and the now very well known effects of the vax (and to a lesser degree COVID) and bam, perfect storm.

Gear isn’t going to give you a heart attack at 20 after2 years of use. It’s going to give you one at 40 after 15 years of not minding your health while abusing them. Maybe it’s an anomaly but my gym is filled with early 20s kids stapled with severe acne from gear use looking for Anadrol to add to their first cycle.

I’m just saying no matter what age, it’s bodybuilders who are dying not these young kids doing there first cycles. They are not doing massive grams of gear. They shouldn’t be doing cycles though but everyone in every generation will experiment no matter how you prohibit it. As for crazy cycles, its just competitors and crazy gymbros who do.

 

[Triceposaurus]

Some of you know I stopped bodybuilding (well, competing) recently due to blood pressure. I have posted many times that I usually keep TRT between 100-125mg/wk (cypionate ester).

This usually has my blood pressure in the 130s over 80s (controlled by blood pressure mediation). Sometimes 120s over 80 or so, depending upon bodyweight and cardio.

So a few weeks ago I lowered the TRT dose to 75 mg. Blood pressure dropped slightly and stayed consistently around 127/82 for a couple weeks.

After a couple of weeks I stopped injecting testosterone 10 days ago.

I also increased cardio (not anything extreme, just be sure to wake up several days a week early and hit fasted cardio on a stair climbing, escalator looking machine - those machines do not play around).

I dropped about 6 pounds, nothing major.

I am still weight training.

Blood pressure this morning, ten days after last injection of 75mg - 113/62







A few notes:

This is all on blood pressure medication - dose and type did not change.

This is just one person, on one day, ten days out. It proves nothing.

I have no intention of doing without testosterone on a permanent basis, and I am not without it now. It is just lower than normal. I will not go down to super low to nothing. This is just an experiment.

There are also a couple of confounding factors, here. Lower testosterone, lower bodyweight, cardio more consistent. The bodyweight and cardio are not large changes, however. The testosterone is. I normally do cardio, and I have lost this much weight or more before.

I'll keep experimenting on myself and update it here.

I am probably going to continue losing bodyweight.

I am not sure yet what I am going to do about the testosterone.

But I will let you all know after I do it.

I'm in a similar situation as you but I'm not on any gear atm and not even training and my daily AM/PM readings are much higher than yours. Is doing mild-moderate cardio a positive or negative for you so far based on your readings ?

 

[malfeasance]

I'm in a similar situation as you but I'm not on any gear atm and not even training and my daily AM/PM readings are much higher than yours. Is doing mild-moderate cardio a positive or negative for you so far based on your readings ?

Definitely a positive, as in lowers BP, but my idea of moderate is bringing the heart rate up over 140 for as much as I can

 

[Triceposaurus]

Definitely a positive, as in lowers BP, but my idea of moderate is bringing the heart rate up over 140 for as much as I can

Interesting. I'm bouncing around now between 150-190 and the meds aren't really making things any better. I can't wait much longer before I hop on a cycle.
Is "low" BP your issue ???

 

[malfeasance]

As in your heart rate during cardio is 150-190 for somewhere between 20 minutes and 45 minutes -
and it is still not helping your blood pressure?

Or did you mean something else?

No, low BP is not my issue. Through cardio and blood pressure medicine, as well as dropping some of the body weight I had from bodybuilding and running only true TRT (not 200mg a week!), I am keeping it back within the normal zone.

 

[Triceposaurus]

As in your heart rate during cardio is 150-190 for somewhere between 20 minutes and 45 minutes -
and it is still not helping your blood pressure?

Or did you mean something else?

No, low BP is not my issue. Through cardio and blood pressure medicine, as well as dropping some of the body weight I had from bodybuilding and running only true TRT (not 200mg a week!), I am keeping it back within the normal zone.

My readings are all taken when relaxed at home soon after waking up or before bed. I occasionally get a lower reading like 110 or 120 but most of the time my resting rate is around 170 and it gets higher depending on what problems I'm thinking about and what stressful situations I have to deal with. I've got another review coming up soon so I will see what the Nurse thinks. I've been on the BP med for about 10 weeks so far and a statin for about 4 weeks.

 

[malfeasance]

My readings are all taken when relaxed at home soon after waking up or before bed. I occasionally get a lower reading like 110 or 120 but most of the time my resting rate is around 170 and it gets higher depending on what problems I'm thinking about and what stressful situations I have to deal with. I've got another review coming up soon so I will see what the Nurse thinks. I've been on the BP med for about 10 weeks so far and a statin for about 4 weeks.

What can you do to reduce the problems and stress?

 

[malfeasance]

Who died that was young? Bostin, yes, he did retarded stuff and knew it. Dallas’ was a congenital issue. The other young-ish guys I know of are Neil and and Luke and were from suicide.

Luke's death at only 31 years of age was not suicide.

That was what was reported early as an internet rumor.

Luke Sandoe’s Family Confirms Heart Failure As Cause of Death | BarBend

The late Luke Sandoe's family shared the official cause of death on his Instagram page.

barbend.com

Frankly, I used to watch some of his videos, and I remember him walking his dog, like, walking, not in a hurry, and being out of breath while trying to speak. I kind of thought, oh, that's not good.

 

[malfeasance]

Ben Chow, Fouad Abiad Respond To New Details of Luke Sandoe's Death – Fitness Volt

Ben Chow, Fouad Abiad Respond To New Details of Luke Sandoe's Death. They both believe Sandoe's death was intentional and brought up very good points.

fitnessvolt.com

And neither of these folks were in the same country at the time and talk about how careful he is with his health . . . well that does not mean it was not heart failure. And they give no details or actual facts.

 

[malfeasance]

Sally Sandoe, whose 31-year-old son Luke died in the United Kingdom in 2020, said it’s inexplicable that so many bodybuilders are getting sick and dying and no one is confronting the problem.

“It is an absolute free-for-all,” Sandoe said. “There’s just real destruction and devastation and destroyed lives. How is that fair? How can that carry on? It can’t. It has to stop.”

They made amends, and shortly after, Sandoe signed on with Redcon1. As part of the sponsorship contract, Redcon1 agreed to pay Aceto’s coaching fee, which was $3,500 in 2020, according to an email exchange between Sandoe and a company official.

The agreement, which paid Sandoe $12,000 a month, had a lot of stipulations: Sandoe was expected to post at least once a day on Instagram and any other social platforms as directed by the company; be filmed daily for advertising and marketing; and make up to 24 appearances a year, among other requirements.

Sandoe’s family said he built a gym in his home with his own money during the pandemic in part to meet his obligations. And he kept on training, hoping to compete once restrictions were lifted.

But that never happened. Sandoe died in May 2020 at age 31, leaving behind two children. A cardiac pathologist noted in a report that Sandoe had an enlarged heart with acute left ventricular failure and left ventricular hypertrophy.

“The underlying cause of his cardiac enlargement is likely to be his bodybuilding,” the report concluded.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2022/bodybuilding-extreme-training/

 

[gx52a]

@malfeasance you mentioned you control BP with telm, have you tried HCTZ, nebivolol, aged garlic, etc?

I've struggled with BP myself and I'm wondering what the sensible trade-off is. Telmisartan is table stakes since it's good for reducing the risk of cardiomegaly, but I wonder if the juice is worth the squeeze for beta blockers

 

[malfeasance]

HCTZ, yes. I could not tolerate it. Seeing stars when working legs, constant cramping in the gym or on hot days or days of physical activity, like arms locking up cramping, calves, torso, it was awful.

Also on metoprolol

Telmisartan by itself was not enough