Blood tests can be worthless, misleading and can keep you sick

sotired45

New Member
Got your attention? Im sure many of the docs will freak out, but hear me out.

This is just a warning to fellow "hard to figure out cases".
For a small percentage of people like myself, who are on the end of the bell curve, anomalies if you will, blood tests can be nearly worthless and so misleading that your doctor will actually keep you sick by over relying on blood tests.

I have finally cured myself after many years of suffering from extreme fatigue, brain fog, zero recovery time, aches and pains, etc. 80-90% disabled. Couldnt hold a regular job.
Why could no doctor heal me? BLOOD TESTS! If you are a weirdo like me, blood tests will completely mislead you and your doc.
So if you have been suffering for a long time, and trying to tune yourself up with your doc's help, and its just not working, as a *last ditch* effort, try this:

Repeat the tune up process, but this time mostly ignore your blood tests. You must tune yourself up via keeping a detailed log of SYMPTOMS. Take a very scientific approach. Change one variable each month, and track your symptoms every day. This is very hard to do because you will realize it could take over a years worth of monthly experiments to figure it out and you are so desperate to feel better.

I kept a spreadsheet for years, and it tracked the following on a scale of 1 to 10 for each variable:
Fatigue
Recovery time from exercise
Sleep quality
Blood pressure
Resting heart rate
Morning wake up temperature
Any side effects experienced
Morning wood
Ability to get wood
Ability to orgasm

I then overlaid my blood tests on my spreadsheet so I could correlate the response.

What did I discover??? Im really really weird.
Key points:

1) I require T levels of 1200-1500 to feel like a normal person with very normal energy and recovery abilities. My docs always wanted to lower my number and it would make me feel like death
2) I develop gyno with estradiol (labcorp sensitive test) levels above 13! Most people recommend E2 at 20-30. That would destroy me.
3) I experience all the typical E2 symptoms when I go above 7!!! Crazy, but ive proven this through careful testing many many times. I get fatigue, aches, cant orgasm, etc. I feel best at about 5-6.
4) TSH is nearly worthless for me. Again, going by symptoms alone allowed me to find my proper dose. Change this at most once a month, there is a BIG lag. Every 6 weeks is probably better.
5) Afternoon temp was not affected by thyroid medication, but wake up trough temperature was. This allowed me to track my thyroid dose much better. You can clearly see my temp troughs climb as I start thyroid medication.

Now im sure some docs reading this will say its bad advice, that I dont know what im talking about, and all I gotta say is I know far more about me then they ever will, and I have hard core, carefully detailed experiments that will prove every assertion I make with extremely strong correlations. You didnt cure me, and I did, the proof is in the pudding. When docs talk, they are talking about "normal" people who are not on the end of the bell curve as far as how people are *suppose* to respond to treatments. So disregard the nonsense, its exactly their advice that kept me sick for many years. They were trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

I have gone from, barely mustering enough energy to crawl out of bed, to being a top level competitor at work again,my former former self. At my worst, I could barely walk a quarter a mile without being completely wiped out.

So when you have gone through many docs, and have just about given up, I suggest my protocol. Take the approach docs took several decades ago when blood tests didnt even exist. They figured out all the doses based on physiological symptoms, and it worked, just was more difficult and tricky to figure out the patterns but it can be done with careful tracking, and one variable change at a time. Really hard to do, because really sick people are very impatient.

If any doc wants to try and debunk this, F you. You guys kept me sick for many years, you clearly dont know what you are talking about, and your degrees have proven worthless to me. Ive put more years of research into this than most of my docs have and thats has become obvious at this point. Im stunned at the stupid out of date crap docs tell me in the office these days. I bet less than 1% of docs really know there stuff when it comes to these hard cases, so be forewarned. Those 1% wont be trying to debunk my post, because I wager they take a similar approach. They know the typical lazy doc approach is worthless. AKA: take some basic blood tests, claim everything is in range, tell patient they are healthy but depressed, and whisk them out the door. Seriously, F docs like that. A good doc will work with you and look well beyond just the blood tests. A good doc knows that the physiological response carries 10X the weight a blood test does.

The biggest problem I see is, most people who are hard to figure out do not have a single doc in their area even capable of curing them. So you have to figure it out all on your own, unless you have the resources to travel many times to another state or country.
 
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Sounds very interesting, thanks for sharing this with us! My life becomes a living hell if I don't take an AI year round.
 
Ok and by the way did you find out why you need such high T and low E2?

This is not normal.

And maybe these 99% ignorant doctors trying to fix 99% of people with regular response to therapy?
 
I would encourage you to channel some energy towards reproducing your findings to publication. Of the seven systems identified by Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHRQ)*** to address scientific evidence, N-of-1 randomized trials are found to be amongst the STRONGEST as far as Evidence Based Medicine!


(1). N-of-1 randomized trial (In N-of-1 trials, the patient undergoes pairs of treatment periods organized so that one period involves the use of the experimental treatment and the other involves the use of an alternate or placebo therapy. The patient and physicians are blinded, if possible, and outcomes are monitored. Treatment periods are replicated until the clinician and patient are convinced that the treatments are definitely different or definitely not different.);


***The Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHRQ), HHS is the lead Federal agency for enhancing the quality, appropriateness, and effectiveness of healthcare services and access to such services. AHRQ has a legislative mandate to develop and disseminate methods or systems to rate scientific evidence found in health care research studies. In carrying out this mission, AHRQ conducts and funds research that develops and presents evidence-based information on healthcare outcomes, quality, cost, use, and access. This research, findings, syntheses, and guidance intent is to assist providers, clinicians, payers, patients, and policy makers in making evidence-based decisions.

AHRQ commissioned the Research Triangle Institute-University of North Carolina Evidence-based Practice Center (RTI/UNC EPC) to undertake a study on systems to rate the quality of scientific evidence. The goals of the EPC study were to describe systems to rate the strength of scientific evidence, including evaluating the quality of individual articles that make up a body of evidence on a specific scientific question in health care, and to provide some guidance as to current “best practices” with respect to rating scientific evidence regarding a particular clinical treatment or technology.

The RTI/UNC EPC completed their study and submitted to AHRQ the report “Systems to Rate the Strength of Scientific Evidence.” The report includes the EPC’s methodological approach (e.g., search strategy, data collection, and analysis of findings) and discusses identification of systems, factors important in developing and using rating systems, and a “best practices” orientation to selecting systems for use.

These systems rate the strength of scientific evidence and form the integral part of evidence-based medicine. The different types of clinical evidence rankings are according to the strength of their freedom from the various biases that beset medical research. By constructing a rough hierarchy that reflects the value of the different types of clinically relevant information, evidence-based medicine attempts to improve decision-making by practicing physicians.


Department of Health and Human Services. Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality. Systems to Rate the Strength of Scientific Evidence. Evidence Report/Technology Assessment No. 47, AHRQ Publication No. 02-E016 (Rockville, MD: Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, 2002). Available at: Systems to Rate the Strength Of Scientific Evidence - NCBI Bookshelf
 
Ok and by the way did you find out why you need such high T and low E2?

This is not normal.

Its a mystery. And yes, thats not normal, im an outlier.
I get the same symptoms of low and high T, or low and high thyroid, or low and high estradiol, as everyone else, they just happen at radically different numbers.

For example, ive explored my T response across a wide range.

A normal person looks something like this:

Total T - normal person
------------------
200 - feels crappy
400 - feels ok
600 - feels good

Total T - for me
----------------------
400 - feels crappy
900 - feels ok
1500 - feels good


Ive also explored my E2, and thryoid:

Estradiol - normal person
------------------------
5 - aches, night sweats
25 - feels good
50 - ED
70 - gyno

Estradiol - for me
-------------------------
0 - aches , night sweats
5 - feels good
12 - ED
15 - gyno


So you see, if you do a bunch of dosing experiments, and track your symptoms, you end up realizing you need to calibrate blood tests to yourself and the calibration required can be quite big in cases of statistical anomalies like me.


And maybe these 99% ignorant doctors trying to fix 99% of people with regular response to therapy?

Yes, thats one of my points. The problem is, when you are the weird 1%, the 99% approach docs use will fail you.
 
Its a mystery. And yes, thats not normal, im an outlier.
I get the same symptoms of low and high T, or low and high thyroid, or low and high estradiol, as everyone else, they just happen at radically different numbers.

For example, ive explored my T response across a wide range.

A normal person looks something like this:

Total T - normal person
------------------
200 - feels crappy
400 - feels ok
600 - feels good

Total T - for me
----------------------
400 - feels crappy
900 - feels ok
1500 - feels good


Ive also explored my E2, and thryoid:

Estradiol - normal person
------------------------
5 - aches, night sweats
25 - feels good
50 - ED
70 - gyno

Estradiol - for me
-------------------------
0 - aches , night sweats
5 - feels good
12 - ED
15 - gyno


So you see, if you do a bunch of dosing experiments, and track your symptoms, you end up realizing you need to calibrate blood tests to yourself and the calibration required can be quite big in cases of statistical anomalies like me.




Yes, thats one of my points. The problem is, when you are the weird 1%, the 99% approach docs use will fail you.

Sounds more like the medical professional you are going to does not know how to properly intepret test LOL
Find some one who does, or look deeper into things as many time I find the answers are not in the blood test at all but just asking the proper questions.
 
It seems the E2 response is tied with the T response. I assume if less is being aromatized, you have more free T and thus feel better. It seems like something appears to be messing with your androgen metabolism. Maybe high SHBG which would inactivate a portion of the T. Or it could be something unrelated to T itself and that the effect of T is able to partially overcome this problem.
 
So whats the best E2 assay? The thing is it seems like people decide one is great and then 6 months down the line the concensus changes. E2 is just as important as T ( maybe even more important )
 
Glad you got it fixed.
Labs are measures of the population and dont address how one feels at a particular value.
Ive been harping about the inattention to individual variability for a while.
Its tempting to think of ourselves as machines with well defined inputs and outputs.
Taint so.
 
https://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/184548-estradiol-testing-lab.html

I just do not post stuff for the hell of it.

from the above post:
lab corp sensitive testing is deviated 10-20 points

That would explain a hell of a lot.

Only thing is, ive had many E2 tests from labcorp and they have all been consistent and correlate well. However, if they are reporting a number 20 points lower than actual, it would explain my numbers a lot better. AKA, I feel good at 5 = 25 in reality.
 
Glad you got it fixed.
Labs are measures of the population and dont address how one feels at a particular value.
Ive been harping about the inattention to individual variability for a while.
Its tempting to think of ourselves as machines with well defined inputs and outputs.
Taint so.

Keep harping, and with more frequency.

The first clue I came across that test numbers can be this far off was on a thyroid forum where several outlier people stated they only felt normal with TSH at near 0.
 
Key points:

1) I require T levels of 1200-1500 to feel like a normal person with very normal energy and recovery abilities. My docs always wanted to lower my number and it would make me feel like death
2) I develop gyno with estradiol (labcorp sensitive test) levels above 13! Most people recommend E2 at 20-30. That would destroy me.
3) I experience all the typical E2 symptoms when I go above 7!!! Crazy, but ive proven this through careful testing many many times. I get fatigue, aches, cant orgasm, etc. I feel best at about 5-6.
4) TSH is nearly worthless for me. Again, going by symptoms alone allowed me to find my proper dose. Change this at most once a month, there is a BIG lag. Every 6 weeks is probably better.
5) Afternoon temp was not affected by thyroid medication, but wake up trough temperature was. This allowed me to track my thyroid dose much better. You can clearly see my temp troughs climb as I start thyroid medication.
.

I believe in what you are saying, I am in sort of the same boat myself, for example I need 50-60mg HC to feel normal, anything else I will feel like crap....most doctors would pass out with that kind of cortisol dosage and that my adrenal gland would dissapear, my bones would fall off, etc.....yet 1+ years into my bones are just fine, I have maintained my weight and glucose levels and a recent CT scan reveral my adrenals in perfect shape.....so you go figure

however, both you and I need to wonder what does this mean for our life longevity, I personally feel the odds arent good, eventually something will give....thats my only worry, but thats why I keep a close eye on things, the best one can do for now
 
The elephant in the room here is that sotired45 took finasteride, and it was the cause of all his problems.

Solutions for this subset of men, including myself, are extremely rare to find and infinitely complicated.

I've been through the gamut of symptoms sotired describes for a couple of years. I haven't taken nearly as comprehensive an approach with blood tests, and the symptoms which have improved seem to have come with time. I couldn't sleep more than 4 hours now I can sleep 7-8 (although not always refreshing), chronic fatigue has subsided and I can get through a day feeling reasonably ok and not half dead, not nearly so depressed any more and my cognitive function has improved.

Still far away from normal though. I also got hit with very bad ED and, worst of all for me, severe muscle loss too.

As far as fixing hormones goes, have only tried t-gel and no AI. Might explain why I later eneded up with bad gyno.

My TSH has gone from 1.2 to 3.4 in a year and a half. Blood cortisol went from below range to mid range (haven't done saliva). Testosterone is at the the bottom of the range, very low lh and fsh also.

sotired:
Have you made any changes to lifestyle, diet or supplementation or diet which have helped? Taking zinc or l-arginine seemed to give me far more noticaeble benefits than testogel!

Are you following what's going on at propeciahelp?
 
Is the latest thiking re finasteride thqat it has a VERY long t1/2 and that is responsible for the Sx continuing past stopping the drug ?
 
The elephant in the room here is that sotired45 took finasteride, and it was the cause of all his problems.

sotired45 must rush to propeciahelp forum and tell them he found solution, I'm not kidding-- guys trying to gauge their hormone levels according to lab ranges and what's perhaps required for some of them is just jack up testosterone to 1500 and lower E2 to near zero.

Perhaps finasteride atrophies receptors.
 
Please come over to propeciahelp and post your story.

What medications are you using to raise T and lower E? are you going to use the meds for life?
 
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