Bulk aftermath - complete failure!

[RzSco]

Starting stats:
Height 188cm
Weight 82kg
Waist 79cm
Arms 36cm

Peak weight stats (10 weeks in)
Weight 92kg (steady 1kg per week)
Waist 87cm
Arms 36cm

Stats after cutting (after 16 weeks)
Weight 82kg
Waist 81cm
Arms 34cm

First 8 weeks were 400 deca and 850 test, last 8 weeks were 500 test 400 tren.

My calories were all good (weight gain and loss rates were as targeted) and my protein intake was at least 200g the whole time.

Worked out consistently either doing 3 day full body or 4 day splits, for 3-5 sets of 10-20 reps for each muscle group. Working near maxes, not messing around. Less volume during the cut at the end but still high intensity.

I just don't understand how this has happened, how can I end up fatter and weaker than where I started at the same weight (which was SHIT, most guys are bigger than me natty at this height) using all these drugs and with an unarguably decent (not claiming amazing, but I shouldn't need amazing to make progress at this level) diet and routine.

I did get blood work done and the gear was not fake, I also got all the usual tren sides. I honestly don't know what to do now, just putting on ANY muscle seems to be beyond me. No matter how much I eat and work out and take drugs my body apparently just won't use it properly.

At this point the only uncontrolled factor I know of is some sleep apnea but I'm not feeling exhausted all day as such and I can't see it being severe enough to turn such a 16 week cycle into a complete REGRESSION.

There is something massively wrong for this result to have occurred. Has anyone ever heard of or experienced a situation like this, with or without a solution? It's driving me crazy.

 

[Dead]

Starting stats:
Height 188cm
Weight 82kg
Waist 79cm
Arms 36cm

Peak weight stats (10 weeks in)
Weight 92kg (steady 1kg per week)
Waist 87cm
Arms 36cm

Stats after cutting (after 16 weeks)
Weight 82kg
Waist 81cm
Arms 34cm

First 8 weeks were 400 deca and 850 test, last 8 weeks were 500 test 400 tren.

My calories were all good (weight gain and loss rates were as targeted) and my protein intake was at least 200g the whole time.

Worked out consistently either doing 3 day full body or 4 day splits, for 3-5 sets of 10-20 reps for each muscle group. Working near maxes, not messing around. Less volume during the cut at the end but still high intensity.

I just don't understand how this has happened, how can I end up fatter and weaker than where I started at the same weight (which was SHIT, most guys are bigger than me natty at this height) using all these drugs and with an unarguably decent (not claiming amazing, but I shouldn't need amazing to make progress at this level) diet and routine.

I did get blood work done and the gear was not fake, I also got all the usual tren sides. I honestly don't know what to do now, just putting on ANY muscle seems to be beyond me. No matter how much I eat and work out and take drugs my body apparently just won't use it properly.

At this point the only uncontrolled factor I know of is some sleep apnea but I'm not feeling exhausted all day as such and I can't see it being severe enough to turn such a 16 week cycle into a complete REGRESSION.

There is something massively wrong for this result to have occurred. Has anyone ever heard of or experienced a situation like this, with or without a solution? It's driving me crazy.

Drop the full body bullshit

I’m no pro but 3-5 sets of 10-20 reps per muscle??? Really? Dude go on push pull or a 4 day body split

I generally do 3-4 exercises per muscle group and that’s 4-6 sets usually 4 working and 2 blood flow sets. Slow controlled before working set

My compound lifts are 8 reps my iso work is anywhere from 12-18 and sometimes 25 reps like leg extension

This sounds like a training issue. Also how is your form, mind muscle connection all of that.

I never could grow my arms or shoulders until I dropped the weight tremendously and control the weight and keep tension on the muscle, find the right tempo for you.

It’s all about making the lightest weight as hard as possible.i used to throw 90s up for dumbell ohp now I probly do 60lbs and that’s because it’s controlled all the way from top to bottom.

Limit range of motion of some of your exercises. Like lay pulldown don’t let your arms all the way up so tension comes off the lat I always feel my tricep a bit when doing lat pulldown that’s because I don’t fully exten my arm and keep tension.

I think you need a training revamp

Also check your rest times. Too little rest and you’re not getting enough time before resuming active state and won’t hit progressive overload. Too long and you lose pump and intensity. Idk how else to explain it.

I do 1 minute rest times for blood flow sets, 2.5 minute rest times for machines, and 3:30 for compound lifts like bench press.

 

[Dead]

3-5 sets of 10-20 reps what does that mean. Like what exercises and sets and reps. Throw that down I can’t imagine working a muscle even slightly decently on 5 sets only a day. And 10-20 reps? Like explain and I bet there will be serious red flags


You’re fatter? That’s a diet issue.

Weaker? You went on a cut. That can happen but you shouldn’t be fatter. Also you used tren. Just leave the tren alone. I think dry compounds are good for looking good but if I’m gonna cut I’m gonna use a bulker. That’s just my preference. Cutting on anadrol is amazing it literally recomp me and keeps me full and strong.

Tren is extremely overrated. I’m only gonna use test deca dmz anadrol from here on out I fell in love with deca recently.

If you aren’t anywhere insane leave the tren alone it’s not gonna work magic. I’d be running test and nandrolone if I were you that’s just me thiugh

 

[Dead]

The best I can offer in terms of mind muscle connection without going into your body and doing it for you, if that were possible, I’d to SQUEEZE, MAKE THAT SHIT HURT,

find the right tempo, too fast and ur using momentum

Too slow and ur not contracting and stretching quick enough and you’ll fall out of the range of your actually current strength potential and stall

Go just slow enough that you’re controlling the weight without momentum use the muscle you’re thinking of, if some slight secondary muscles are incorporated then fine

I actually started trying this new thing on leg day I will start leg press or extensions extremely slow (knee issues) for 5-8 reps and when it starts burning horribly, up the fucking tempo a bit to a more normal pace those sets really do something wild for me if I start slow (too slow) and then jump into normal pace, I do it because I get my muscles pumped enough so that when I go into a faster TEMPO I can tell it’s still only the muscle I’m working being hit-THE LONGER U ARE IN A SET THE CLOSER U ARE TO CNS GIVING OUT SO I PUMP THOSE MUSCLES SLOWLY AND THEN GO INTO A NORMAL TEMPO AND THEN RAPID SO I CAN GET OUT OF THE SET AS QUICK AS POSSIBLE BEFORE CNS FSTIGUE, if I start at a rapid pace my muscles just won’t pump and my joints take the load. That’s just me. If my muscles are pumped before upping tempo it feels like I am locking them into tension. This is why I perform blood flow sets

I Am CONSTSNTLY, fucking around with tempo and range of motion and rep range on machines, I always pump my muscles first because then if I go heavy the pumped muscles will take over the load, I’ll even go do bicep curls between back sets so my biceps are weakened and my back takes the load even better.

This is an ever learning hobby, just because u find the right rep range tempo for one machine does not mean it’s the same for another.

For instance I typically do 13 reps on machines why? 10 feels too little for me and 15 feels too far out of hypertrophy range.
But tricep pushdowns? 2 sets of 20 reps for blood, then 15-20 reps for working sets. I used to do heavy ass 10 rep sets for that and I never got sore the next day. No growth. Now I drop the weight a ton and do it like this, lock my elbows, release my grip to an extremely light squeeze, turn my palms slightly up, limit my range of motion so I don’t lock out my elbows and so I don’t hit 90 degrees at the other direction this is what I need to get constant tension,

Sometimes I can stretch past 90 degrees but most of the time my triceps just uncontract and my shoulders take the load

All of this shit matters and it takes a long long time to learn ur body. This is me just starting to get an idea after 5 fuckin years. So fuck around with it and have fun. Burning those muscles up is so much more fun than ego lifting heavy weight. You ever see big ass bodybuilders curling dumbells? They always use like 35lbs? And the shit works. It does not take a lot of weight it takes planning and focus

 

[Dead]

And last thing ima say, try different exercises. Pick what works for u not what someone said. Barbell rows don’t do shit for me because my posture is trash and I have forward shoulder rotation so I can’t contract,

Some dudes run 6-7 exercises a muscle group.

Cool

Me? I like to keep it simple. 3-4, sometimes just 3. It’s easier to get acclimated and induce progressive overload and monitor results on 3 than it is 8. And if 3 hit harder than any other equipment in the gym, why would I sacrifice that?

And for quads currently? I’m about to try just leg press and leg extensions. Why? Because even tho hack squat feels good. It doesn’t hit as hard as leg press for me. Angle body type limb length, ankle mobility. Standing vs laying

So if that exercise doesn’t work as well as leg press, why don’t I just stick to leg press and up the volume or use a different kind of few sets on there? Why sacrifice muscular load just because in my head I’m thinking oh 2 exercises? Not efficient enough. When really if I add a 3rd I’m just taking a way from full stimulus. TRY WHAT WORKS FOR YOU

My split is not 100 percent optimized it’s just where I have gotten currently and in the future I’m sure it’ll be adjusted again

Go watch Ryan humidton or Seth foroce they are good with this little detail shit

 

[Dead]

OHHHH and another little theory of mine. I swear to god the bigger your muscles are the easier it is to mind muscle control and contract them. It’s weird maybe it’s cuz the surface area on the body is bigger so it’s easier to flex and control. I mean, flex your lat if you never worked out before. Probably can’t really fuckin tell how. But you can flex ur bicep can’t you. That’s my point

 

[Pantera]

Others have helped you with your training, so I'm just going to talk about the drugs. First off, why are you even taking the drugs? You can make good progress more as a natty first while learning how to train properly. That is what you should be doing. Once you've got your training and diet dialled in then you can introduce drugs. As for the actual drugs:

1) Your cycle was all over the place. Deca and tren during your first cycle? It should be a moderate dose of test only.

2) Why'd you run deca for only 8 weeks? Deca takes 8 weeks to saturate. You should know these things before you even start cycling.

3) Why'd you bulk for only 10 weeks then diet immediately for 6 weeks? That's a waste of a cycle and is a good way to spin your wheels.

Once you've got your training and diet dialled in, and you've learnt more about these drugs (stick around and lurk, ask questions here, etc, so you can learn) then you can run a basic cycle of 500mg test/week for 16-20 weeks.

 

[Dead]

Others have helped you with your training, so I'm just going to talk about the drugs. First off, why are you even taking the drugs? You can make good progress more as a natty first while learning how to train properly. That is what you should be doing. Once you've got your training and diet dialled in then you can introduce drugs. As for the actual drugs:

1) Your cycle was all over the place. Deca and tren during your first cycle? It should be a moderate dose of test only.

2) Why'd you run deca for only 8 weeks? Deca takes 8 weeks to saturate. You should know these things before you even start cycling.

3) Why'd you bulk for only 10 weeks then diet immediately for 6 weeks? That's a waste of a cycle and is a good way to spin your wheels.

Once you've got your training and diet dialled in, and you've learnt more about these drugs (stick around and lurk, ask questions here, etc, so you can learn) then you can run a basic cycle of 500mg test/week for 16-20 weeks.

Holy guck deca and tren on first cycle I didn’t see that part.

Okay so he’s new to the gym and jumped on cycle? Dude. I hope to god ur on trt. It’s ur first cycle u coulda ran 250 test and 50 anadrol and u woulda went hulk mode.

 

[RzSco]

So this wasn't my first cycle, it was my third. My first was just test at 600mg and that took me from 70kg to 80kg really easily. Never had gains like that again and that was just from doing 3x5 compound lifts. The second cycle was just to cut fast, wasn't aiming for growth, that went perfectly.

I've been stuck at 80kg forever, and pathetic 5RM like 50kg ohp and 70kg bench. Mind muscle connection is fine, I'm definitely not benching with my triceps or doing pull ups without my lats etc.

Whenever I tried adding calories in the past I just put on fat so I assumed I needed more anabolism so I did the test/deca/tren cycle. Put on fat anyway so clearly more drugs did nothing.

I don't mind training hard but whenever I try to increase weight, I miss reps and eventually I have to deload because I can't even lift the weight I did before after a few weeks. Despite a calorie surplus and 48h+ recovery. Equally, if I train once a week I also seem to regress between workouts.

I never get pumps, not even from running, but I do get DOMS from my workout if I train each muscle once a week, even if it's just one set! No DOMS if frequency is higher, regardless of volume.

Strangely, on my first cycle I got incredible pumps, I could not walk 1km without my calves locking up, never had anything like it since.

I also have NO estrogen reaction whatsoever, I did this cycle without taking any AI whereas on my first cycle I got a ton of acne and had to take Asin. Is it possible that I've fried something in my body and just don't respond to steroids any more? Androgen receptor down regulation is a myth right?

 

[Dead]

So this wasn't my first cycle, it was my third. My first was just test at 600mg and that took me from 70kg to 80kg really easily. Never had gains like that again and that was just from doing 3x5 compound lifts. The second cycle was just to cut fast, wasn't aiming for growth, that went perfectly.

I've been stuck at 80kg forever, and pathetic 5RM like 50kg ohp and 70kg bench. Mind muscle connection is fine, I'm definitely not benching with my triceps or doing pull ups without my lats etc.

Whenever I tried adding calories in the past I just put on fat so I assumed I needed more anabolism so I did the test/deca/tren cycle. Put on fat anyway so clearly more drugs did nothing.

I don't mind training hard but whenever I try to increase weight, I miss reps and eventually I have to deload because I can't even lift the weight I did before after a few weeks. Despite a calorie surplus and 48h+ recovery. Equally, if I train once a week I also seem to regress between workouts.

I never get pumps, not even from running, but I do get DOMS from my workout if I train each muscle once a week, even if it's just one set! No DOMS if frequency is higher, regardless of volume.

Strangely, on my first cycle I got incredible pumps, I could not walk 1km without my calves locking up, never had anything like it since.

I also have NO estrogen reaction whatsoever, I did this cycle without taking any AI whereas on my first cycle I got a ton of acne and had to take Asin. Is it possible that I've fried something in my body and just don't respond to steroids any more? Androgen receptor down regulation is a myth right?

You’ll blow up no matter how fucked ur training is first cycle.

How long since last cycle.

Post ur diet and training. Ur problem will get seen I bet.

Never get pumps? 5 rep sets? Sounding to me like ur not in hypertrophy zone. Ur reps are too small ur volume is too low and ur mind muscle connection isn’t where u think it is.

Post diet training

Holy fuck my guy, u are 6 2 180lbs? U aren’t eating enough

No pumps? What’s ur carbs at. Seriously. Diet training. Post

1) u either didn’t take enough time off between cycles

2) training and form needs to be addressed

3) diet

I’m literally willing to bet money it’s all 3 at this point. No offense. I’m going off of what u told me. You’d make more gains off trt and more food.


Coming from someone who drinks chicken shakes

 

[Mac11wildcat]

Post a training vid. Post your diet. Post literally anything else but your cycle.

3”on your waist and nowhere else in 10 weeks says everything you’re doing is wrong.

 

[Gbro]

Tell us, specifically, what you routine looks like. I guarantee it's shit.

 

[lankyOldIdiot]

My 2nd cycle, 500 test + 250 deca, I blew up, went from 220 to 250 lbs at 6'6. Massive strength gains. Was benching 335 for 10 reps with ease.

Moved to a TRT dose after 3 months and lost everything very quickly. Ended up right where I started.

My theory is you actually don't build much muscle at all on roids. It's all mostly water. That you need to blast for years or at least most of the year to be able to keep any muscle at a TRT dose, and even then, it still eventually goes away. On top of that, most pros are assumed to "cruise" at 500mg test for a few months, then go back to blasting.

 

[RzSco]

4-day split ABxABxx was my routine for most of this bulk. I was meant to increase weight if I got all my reps in the desired range but I was really just wheelspinning and getting fat. I should be able to grow from these compound lifts at such a shit strength level and eating 3800 calories for a 1kg per week weight gain. These numbers are essentially very close to my maxes, and are pathetic! I'm just that weak though and natty I was plateaued for years at 2/3rds of these weights. That first test cycle was the only thing that ever actually seemed to do anything.

A
5 x 10-12 bench 60kg
5 X 10-12 row 50kg
5 X 15-20 bicep curls 25kg

B
5 X 10-12 squat 70kg
5 X 10-12 overhead presses 45kg
5 X 15-20 skull crushers 20kg

….Is your gear real? You added size nowhere but 3” to your waist…

I don't know man, I had gear from 3 different sources (2 direct from labs) and 5 different labs, you'd think at least some of it was not bunk right? These were not shit labs either, I did my research.

 

[Dead]

4-day split ABxABxx was my routine for most of this bulk. I was meant to increase weight if I got all my reps in the desired range but I was really just wheelspinning and getting fat. I should be able to grow from these compound lifts at such a shit strength level and eating 3800 calories for a 1kg per week weight gain. These numbers are essentially very close to my maxes, and are pathetic! I'm just that weak though and natty I was plateaued for years at 2/3rds of these weights.

A
5 x 10-12 bench 60kg
5 X 10-12 row 50kg
5 X 15-20 bicep curls 25kg

B
5 X 10-12 squat 70kg
5 X 10-12 overhead presses 45kg
5 X 15-20 skull crushers 20kg



I don't know man, I had gear from 3 different sources (2 direct from labs) and 5 different labs, you'd think at least some of it was not bunk right? These were not shit labs either, I did my research.

Uh ur training needs to be changed bro.

Even doing that I’d still expect strength increase something is very wrong. Maybe not enough days in between muscle groups? Also not enough volume.

The whole thing needs changing. And idk even on a low calorie diet u should be stronger.

I almost am starting to question the gear now but honestly start with the training.

HOW LONG OFF between these cycles? Trt or pct

 

[Gbro]

4-day split ABxABxx was my routine for most of this bulk. I was meant to increase weight if I got all my reps in the desired range but I was really just wheelspinning and getting fat. I should be able to grow from these compound lifts at such a shit strength level and eating 3800 calories for a 1kg per week weight gain. These numbers are essentially very close to my maxes, and are pathetic! I'm just that weak though and natty I was plateaued for years at 2/3rds of these weights. That first test cycle was the only thing that ever actually seemed to do anything.

A
5 x 10-12 bench 60kg
5 X 10-12 row 50kg
5 X 15-20 bicep curls 25kg

B
5 X 10-12 squat 70kg
5 X 10-12 overhead presses 45kg
5 X 15-20 skull crushers 20kg



I don't know man, I had gear from 3 different sources (2 direct from labs) and 5 different labs, you'd think at least some of it was not bunk right? These were not shit labs either, I did my research.

Those reps, at that weight, are ridiculous. You're not going to put on size with high reps when you're that weak. You need to be on a 5x5 program doing only compound exercises until you get your strength up. And you definitely don't need steroids to do that.

 

[Gbro]

Workout 3x times per week MWF. Week 1: ABA. Week 2: BAB
A: Squat, bench press, barbell row
B: Squat, overhead press, deadlift

When you can get all 5 reps for 5 sets, up the weight 5 lbs for the next session. This is the fastest way to gain strength and size.

 

[RzSco]

I can add some volume but not a lot, after 5 sets my work capacity is really reduced so I'd have to do drop sets or failure sets with lower reps. How long of recovery time would you recommend for that style of total-failure training?

Natty lifting: 3 years (lmao)
First cycle: 12 weeks 600mg test
First cruise: 1 year at 200mg
PCT'd off for six months
Second cycle: 10 weeks 200 test 400 tren
Second cruise: 4 months 200mg
Third cycle: 16 weeks (this one) 850 test 400 deca / 400 tren

Honestly I'd be happy with my 80kg lean, I look athletic but not big, but I'm not who I'm trying to impress.

Those reps, at that weight, are ridiculous. You're not going to put on size with high reps when you're that weak. You need to be on a 5x5 program doing only compound exercises until you get your strength up. And you definitely don't need steroids to do that.

I did 5x5 natty until it plateaued, and then again on my first cycle until it also plateaued. I've revisited it a few times but I just miss reps and can't progress, same usual shit. Exactly the routine you posted. I never get to add the 5 lbs now, I always get stuck at the same weight.

 

[Gbro]

I did 5x5 natty until it plateaued, and then again on my first cycle until it also plateaued. I've revisited it a few times but I just miss reps and can't progress, same usual shit. Exactly the routine you posted. I never get to add the 5 lbs now, I always get stuck at the same weight.

A
5 x 10-12 bench 60kg
5 X 10-12 row 50kg
5 X 15-20 bicep curls 25kg

B
5 X 10-12 squat 70kg
5 X 10-12 overhead presses 45kg
5 X 15-20 skull crushers 20kg

I'm going to give it to you straight- there is no way you did 5x5 natty until you plateaued and ended up with those numbers UNLESS your diet was pure shit. Based on your description of bulking yourself into a fat tub-O-lard, and then cutting back down to a scrawny waif, I'm going to go with your nutrition is crap.

Drugs won't fix this- as you've already seen several times. Until you get your diet and training in proper order, you will never see gains.

 

[M@NU]

why do total beginners always think they need the shortcut and take roids after a short time?
dude, your stats scream beginner at me. Your height/weight ratio, your strength values, your training split, your only info about diet "200g protein" etc. etc.
roids work, but they do not work without the other variables.