CA Prop 8 & DOMA

[LifeEditing]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

Although I do disagree with the recent turnover.

The only positive I can think of is. At least its good population control

Another way to say that is...

"Good thing all those gay couples will be adopting the babies that straight couples abandon."

At least I think that's the right way to put it. Sorry, the opening was too ripe, had to


-LE

 

[Jeton]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

Okay...

There are a few posts noting that the judge whom overturned Prop 8 is gay, as if that somehow lends a bias. While it may, the same argument could be made against a straight judge, or a similar argument with equal weight. In other words, its a pointless observation, especially considering his ruling which is overflowing with fact and not subjective opinion.

Regarding those that hold religious views and contend that marriage is a covenant between God, a man, and woman, etc. - wrong. That view is entirely exclusive to your religion, and there are many different religions on earth, and many of them vary wildly in their definition of marriage and its purpose. The point here is that while you may argue that marriage is not the domain of the government, it's also not the domain of - for example - the Mormon church, which was the primary financial sponsor of the Prop 8 campaign in California. In other words, enjoy your Sunday worship, preach your gospel when and where you can do so peacefully, and otherwise kindly keep your nose out of the rest of the world's business. Marriage is not yours to define and control.

Ya know, in an age where the Catholic church is spending paritioner tithes toward multiple settlements paid to people that were repeatedly raped - as Children - by their Priests (including many homosexual Priests enganged in sodomy, mind you) - Priests whom were not only protected from prosecution by a vast (and now publicly documented) conspiracy that went all the way to the Pope, but also rotated back into other churches elsewhere where they repeated their actions... well, with that going on, you'd think that putting an end to the so-called horrors of gay marriage would fall off the list of important issues to address.

And I don't know, if I were a Pastor of a conservative or evangelical church, I might spend a few sermons talking about the evils of gay bashing, hate crimes against homosexuals, and even murders, which often take place in the name of God and religion, before addressing gay marriage. One does seem slightly more important and particularly relevant to their audience, than the other.

Bottom line, this country has been a source of continual and painful revolution, from slavery to segregation to women's sufferage, and all along the way there have been people determined to maintain that abhorable status quo, typically in the name of God, decency, or some type of moral standard.

I just hope that 30 years from now, if and when my gay or lesbian or transgendered son or daughter looks back at a period of time in American history when their rights as equal citizens were being defined, that they'll have something to be proud of - a moment when we showed our civil courage as a Country - at a time when many argue we're "circling the drain". I just hope.


-LE

excellent post.

 

[LifeEditing]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

lol There's a reason why I did not include that. I don't want more children corrupted/ brainwashed.

There's a reason why procreation is the way it is.

Surely then, there must also be a reason why procreation continues to produce gay people? Hmm. Maybe its natural?

After all, its only the straight couples having all these gay babies! OH NOES!

 

[LifeEditing]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

Could be many reasons why they choose this path of sexuality. Could be insecurity, abused as a child, acceptance, hormonal imbalance, influenced and the list goes on, whatever it may be it comes down to individual choice.

That'll be true when you yourself can choose to be gay.

When you can come back to this board and admit that you find naked men and big phat vein canes to be wholly attractive and acceptable to you and your stinkywinky, but you just choose vagina instead - then I'll buy that.

But you can't, because you don't, and you wouldn't, which is no choice at all.

Really, do people still think like this?

 

[Jeton]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

Could be many reasons why they choose this path of sexuality. Could be insecurity, abused as a child, acceptance, hormonal imbalance, influenced and the list goes on, whatever it may be it comes down to individual choice.

I have spoken to gay people and the most common reasons they told me why they chose to be gay was: insecurity and being accepted. And some said they had bad experiences sexually with the opposite sex that changed there views for life. I do feel sad for people that are molested or abused sexually and this is America and everyone one has the right to choose.

u r a very poor liar, dude. ur supposed "causes" have all been thoroughly tested AND DEBUNKED over the course of the 20th Century, USUALLY BE VERY HOMOPHOBIC RESEARCHERS WHO GOT UPSET BY THE CONCLUSIONS OF THEIR OWN STUDIES, and i'd bet ur mother's life u've never spoken to a gay person in ur life until now in this thread. funny how u've "met" gay people who "chose" to be homosexual based on "insecurity and being accepted"...what, they felt that choosing to be gay would make them more secure and accepted around bigots like urself?


the new tactic among homophobes is to deny their bigotry, hide their hate, and act condescending instead. they're still losing the Culture War tho...

 

[cfreetenor]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

Could be many reasons why they choose this path of sexuality. Could be insecurity, abused as a child, acceptance, hormonal imbalance, influenced and the list goes on, whatever it may be it comes down to individual choice.

I have spoken to gay people and the most common reasons they told me why they chose to be gay was: insecurity and being accepted. And some said they had bad experiences sexually with the opposite sex that changed there views for life. I do feel sad for people that are molested or abused sexually and this is America and everyone one has the right to choose.

If we accept that as true, what explanation do you have for gay children who kill themselves because pressures to be heterosexual?

 

[IronCore]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

If we accept that as true, what explanation do you have for gay children who kill themselves because pressures to be heterosexual?

natural selection....

 

[Jeton]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

natural selection....

ur continued and accelerating political defeat in America and the world pleases me.

despair, n despair some more. gnash ur teeth n tear ur hair. [)]

 

[cfreetenor]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

natural selection....

[)]

Touche.

 

[IronCore]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

ur continued and accelerating political defeat in America and the world pleases me.

despair, n despair some more. gnash ur teeth n tear ur hair. [)]

whatever...

FYI.. I am not one of the fanatics that says God hates fag's...

But I think its funny that Nature does.... [)]

Case and point... HIV

The ONLY reason you are still alive is because of the drugs your doctor prescribed... Your kinda like a reverse abortion.... Nature tried to abort you and the doctors saved you... And so can Jesus


( I must say that I do not wish any ill will upon you Jeton... You really are an asset to the forum...but your still a fag...)

 

[LifeEditing]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

whatever...

FYI.. I am not one of the fanatics that says God hates fag's...

But I think its funny that Nature does.... [)]

Case and point... HIV

The ONLY reason you are still alive is because of the drugs your doctor prescribed... Your kinda like a reverse abortion.... Nature tried to abort you and the doctors saved you... And so can Jesus


( I must say that I do not wish any ill will upon you Jeton... You really are an asset to the forum...but your still a fag...)

Very Christian of you. Thanks for illustrating my point yet again.

 

[Jeton]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

whatever...
FYI.. I am not one of the fanatics that says God hates fag's...
But I think its funny that Nature does.... [)]
Case and point... HIV
The ONLY reason you are still alive is because of the drugs your doctor prescribed... Your kinda like a reverse abortion.... Nature tried to abort you and the doctors saved you... And so can Jesus
( I must say that I do not wish any ill will upon you Jeton... You really are an asset to the forum...but your still a fag...)

actually Nature produced human intelligence and inventiveness, which gave me the modern medical tools to fight a deadly infection n control it. i also suspect Jesus would facepalm non-stop reading ur posts btw

 

[IronCore]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

Very Christian of you. Thanks for illustrating my point yet again.

You are used to the good natured folks that are too nice to stand up against you and raise their voice to defend there beliefs when punks like you get loud...You know the ones that turn the other cheek and walk away.... well those days are soon ending my friend...

You see LE.. you are missing the point... and that is the problem with the distorted/bigoted view of Christianity... You want to base your judgment of the whole on my actions...

It is called stereo typing... something that is only OK to do to me an my kind huh...

Why is it bigotry and hate mongering when Islam is called a violent oppressive religion?

Or bigotry and hatred when someone says that homosexuality (man on man ) is disgusting...

I think "Liver and Onions" are disgusting too, does that make me bigoted to Liver... or a Liver-a-phobe? NO... it means I don't like them... And I don't want them in my face at EVERY MEAL! If you eat them thats fine... but don't bring it to my house or I'll ask you to leave... SAME CONCEPT!


But you can say what you want about Christians and it be OK because of what I do???....


If you are looking to me for an example you are looking in the wrong place... Because I ASSURE YOU that there is a VERY long list of items ahead of my "actions on Meso" that will be brought up on my judgment day.... I am sure this wont even be mentioned...

Good thing for you that you don't believe in all this Jesus mumbo jumbo... Because if you are wrong... Your list will be short and sweet... something to the tune of "Sorry... I never Knew you"

 

[IronCore]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

actually Nature produced human intelligence and inventiveness, which gave me the modern medical tools to fight a deadly infection n control it. i also suspect Jesus would facepalm non-stop reading ur posts btw

It wouldn't be for just that....

 

[LifeEditing]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

You are used to the good natured folks that are too nice to stand up against you and raise their voice to defend there beliefs when punks like you get loud...You know the ones that turn the other cheek and walk away.... well those days are soon ending my friend...

You see LE.. you are missing the point... and that is the problem with the distorted/bigoted view of Christianity... You want to base your judgment of the whole on my actions...

It is called stereo typing... something that is only OK to do to me an my kind huh...

Why is it bigotry and hate mongering when Islam is called a violent oppressive religion?

Or bigotry and hatred when someone says that homosexuality (man on man ) is disgusting...

I think "Liver and Onions" are disgusting too, does that make me bigoted to Liver... or a Liver-a-phobe? NO... it means I don't like them... And I don't want them in my face at EVERY MEAL! If you eat them thats fine... but don't bring it to my house or I'll ask you to leave... SAME CONCEPT!


But you can say what you want about Christians and it be OK because of what I do???....


If you are looking to me for an example you are looking in the wrong place... Because I ASSURE YOU that there is a VERY long list of items ahead of my "actions on Meso" that will be brought up on my judgment day.... I am sure this wont even be mentioned...

Good thing for you that you don't believe in all this Jesus mumbo jumbo... Because if you are wrong... Your list will be short and sweet... something to the tune of "Sorry... I never Knew you"

*sighs*

For someone that's so concerned with spiritual accountability, you sure don't seem to apply that standard to yourself. Your behavior is simply ignorant and bullyish, and typical of people who can't defend themselves or their ideas without resorting to raising their voice or their fists.

Of course I don't expect a believing Christian to sit there and smile when I tell them that their god and their religion are a sham. However, there's a response that's decidely Christian (discerning, calm, perhaps even loving - like Jesus commanded - similar to what MAYO has done), and then there's what you do, which is stomp your feet, hurl insults, curse, and toss around a bunch of flat, unintelligent, and meaningless arguments to try and justify your position and behavior.

The first reason that I'm done arguing with you, IronCore, is because you're simply not mature.

As for the scripture you quoted - sad thing is that I know your Bible better than you do - and that's a verse that deals specifically with people CLAIMING to be Christian that are then exposed as hypocrites or false believers at the throne of judgement.

It's also part of a broader section of Matthew that addresses the overall behavior of Christians, and the fact that you'll know who the real ones are based on their actions. Rather ironically, I quoted you this same passage yesterday, which you conveniently ignored...

Hey look, an Atheist teaching a Christian about the Bible...

And this brings me to the second and final reason why I'm done arguing with you, IronCore - because you're NOT a Christian at all. You say you are, but you act like the Devil. If you can't stand your ground and discuss your beliefs gracefully and without becoming accostic, and in particular - without exhibiting the teachings of Christ and the very merits of Christianity - then, as it suggests in Matthew, you're just a pretender, and you give more sincere believers a bad name.

Might want to give a second read to Luke 6:43-49.

Unless of course you don't care at all about the testimony/example you make of yourself on this board Yeah, its fine that you're a nice guy when you're talking about AAS, but isn't a discussion like this where your behavior and "light" as a Christian really matters?



-LE

 

[Stretch]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

*sighs*

For someone that's so concerned with spiritual accountability, you sure don't seem to apply that standard to yourself. Your behavior is simply ignorant and bullyish, and typical of people who can't defend themselves or their ideas without resorting to raising their voice or their fists.

Of course I don't expect a believing Christian to sit there and smile when I tell them that their god and their religion are a sham. However, there's a response that's decidely Christian (discerning, calm, perhaps even loving - like Jesus commanded - similar to what MAYO has done), and then there's what you do, which is stomp your feet, hurl insults, curse, and toss around a bunch of flat, unintelligent, and meaningless arguments to try and justify your position and behavior.

The first reason that I'm done arguing with you, IronCore, is because you're simply not mature.

As for the scripture you quoted - sad thing is that I know your Bible better than you do - and that's a verse that deals specifically with people CLAIMING to be Christian that are then exposed as hypocrites or false believers at the throne of judgement.

It's also part of a broader section of Matthew that addresses the overall behavior of Christians, and the fact that you'll know who the real ones are based on their actions. Rather ironically, I quoted you this same passage yesterday, which you conveniently ignored...

Hey look, an Atheist teaching a Christian about the Bible...

And this brings me to the second and final reason why I'm done arguing with you, IronCore - because you're NOT a Christian at all. You say you are, but you act like the Devil. If you can't stand your ground and discuss your beliefs gracefully and without becoming accostic, and in particular - without exhibiting the teachings of Christ and the very merits of Christianity - then, as it suggests in Matthew, you're just a pretender, and you give more sincere believers a bad name.

Might want to give a second read to Luke 6:43-49.

Unless of course you don't care at all about the testimony/example you make of yourself on this board Yeah, its fine that you're a nice guy when you're talking about AAS, but isn't a discussion like this where your behavior and "light" as a Christian really matters?



-LE

non believers are all so quick to point the finger Christians.

Christians are forgiven not perfect.

And what gave you the idea that Ironcore was nice when he talked about AAS, he's an ass 99.9% of the time bro....where have you been???

 

[LifeEditing]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

Non believers are all so quick to point the finger Christians.

Christians are forgiven not perfect.

Unfortunately when you make claims about morality and how the world should be, it does place a certain burden on you to lead by example. As an atheist, I'm not telling other people how to run their lives...

And nobody is asking for perfection, but at least attempting to be Christian would be nice, and maybe even accepting responsibility for your behavior when you're not - seems reasonable and easy enough to me. Being "forgiven" is no excuse. Sorry.

 

[MAYO]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

Unfortunately when you make claims about morality and how the world should be, it does place a certain burden on you to lead by example. As an atheist, I'm not telling other people how to run their lives...

And nobody is asking for perfection, but at least attempting to be Christian would be nice, and maybe even accepting responsibility for your behavior when you're not - seems reasonable and easy enough to me. Being "forgiven" is no excuse. Sorry.

As a Christian I'm not telling other people how to run their lives. I believe grace was given to me by God and only He can give it to others. I can't 'convict' someone into conversion. I believe I am just called to live. That's it. My sphere of influence is the people I work with, train with, b/s with on this forum, etc. I believe my daily life and actions will speak volumes over a crude picket sign or a self-righteous comment. I don't believe that Christ's victory was won in His death, but in His life. And if He is the example, then that is where my victory will be. Think about the woman at the well. If hatred of non-believers was correct then I think the converstion would have read something like. "Um hey, you're a whore. That means you spread filth and disease. You're everything that's wrong with this city. Don't worry, you're going to burn in hell. Now fetch me some water bitch." The conversation was quite the contrary. I know somebody will say, "but MAYO you're a dick." You can find a slew of my posts with rude remarks and inappropriate comments; but it's like Stretch said though, we're forgiven not perfect.

 

[LifeEditing]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

As a Christian I'm not telling other people how to run their lives.

Really? You don't share the gospel with people, even on a comfortable and willing basis, and explain to them that they're sinners, that their regular lives are immoral, and that they need Christ and his redemptive power?

Whether you say it with a whisper or a fist, religion is at odds with secular life, and the entire purpose of "witnessing" or preaching is to lead people to god, most often by explaining that everything they're doing is wrong.

Even then, if you as an individual Christian aren't doing this, Christianity proper does it on a daily basis - and in the case of Prop 8 - this showed itself to be true as conservative Christians (be they Evangelical, Mormon, or Catholic) attempted (and will still attempt) to limit the civil rights of GLBT men and women because of their particular moral view, and did so with a hideous campaign of misinformation and fear mongering which was both dishonest and underhanded (i.e. exactly NOT what people who supposedly care about integrity should be doing).

I know somebody will say, "but MAYO you're a dick." You can find a slew of my posts with rude remarks and inappropriate comments; but it's like Stretch said though, we're forgiven not perfect.

And that somebody would be me. To be honest, I probably didn't need to say that, so I'm sorry if I needlessly offended you. The important point here though is that your supposed redemption is neither an excuse nor a license to act such a way. Its certainly true that you're not perfect, and it may even be true that you're somehow forgiven of this, but there's a certain attitude Christians should have that I don't see in what you, Stretch, or IronCore are suggesting...

In other words, there's the "Ya know, I say a lot of things I shouldn't, and I really struggle with that, and I wish I didn't, and I try hard not to, and I'm sorry for the stupid things I have said..." attitude, that's hopefully followed by an actual and sincere attempt to curb those behaviors.

And then there's the "Yeah this is me I'm not perfect Jesus loves me any way deal with it..." attitude, which sounds a lot more like somebody who's comfortable hiding behind Christian ideas without actually trying to be Christian at all.

Hopefully you get my point/the difference. Its clear as day to me.

 

[Jeton]

Re: CA Prop 8 - District Court

Really? You don't share the gospel with people, even on a comfortable and willing basis, and explain to them that they're sinners, that their regular lives are immoral, and that they need Christ and his redemptive power?

Whether you say it with a whisper or a fist, religion is at odds with secular life, and the entire purpose of "witnessing" or preaching is to lead people to god, most often by explaining that everything they're doing is wrong.

Even then, if you as an individual Christian aren't doing this, Christianity proper does it on a daily basis - and in the case of Prop 8 - this showed itself to be true as conservative Christians (be they Evangelical, Mormon, or Catholic) attempted (and will still attempt) to limit the civil rights of GLBT men and women because of their particular moral view, and did so with a hideous campaign of misinformation and fear mongering which was both dishonest and underhanded (i.e. exactly NOT what people who supposedly care about integrity should be doing).



And that somebody would be me. To be honest, I probably didn't need to say that, so I'm sorry if I needlessly offended you. The important point here though is that your supposed redemption is neither an excuse nor a license to act such a way. Its certainly true that you're not perfect, and it may even be true that you're somehow forgiven of this, but there's a certain attitude Christians should have that I don't see in what you, Stretch, or IronCore are suggesting...

In other words, there's the "Ya know, I say a lot of things I shouldn't, and I really struggle with that, and I wish I didn't, and I try hard not to, and I'm sorry for the stupid things I have said..." attitude, that's hopefully followed by an actual and sincere attempt to curb those behaviors.

And then there's the "Yeah this is me I'm not perfect Jesus loves me any way deal with it..." attitude, which sounds a lot more like somebody who's comfortable hiding behind Christian ideas without actually trying to be Christian at all.

Hopefully you get my point/the difference. Its clear as day to me.

very well said.