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[ecohimbo]

Sorry, no tits and no dicks. But now that I have your attention:

Found my way here through other sites, looking for cycle info and sources.

5'9, 175, 28 y/o (manlet). BF 13%. In and out of the gym for 10 years, started following a structured weightlifting/dieting program 2 years ago.

I did a half-assed "cycle" in early 2020 for 6 weeks of Test (Test-E, if I remember correctly) and Anavar, bought from my roommate. Had to cut it short because COVID and gym closures. That was probably a good thing, given I had no idea what I was doing and probably would have fucked myself up. Fortunately, I didn't experience any side effects when prematurely ending the cycle. Gains I made were minimal and lost in the following months due to lack of exercise/poor diet. Lessons learned.

I've made progress over the last 2 years (dropping down from a fat 190-200 lbs in late 2020), but like most people interested in AAS, I'm interested in achieving more.

I've spent the last 3 months researching what a responsible and limited first cycle would involve. I want to see how my body responds to different compounds and what works best, then make choices about future cycles based on the qualitative data (how I feel, how I look) and quantitative data (what does my bloodwork say?).

I still have a lot of questions about cycling, specifically about recovery planning:

1) Understanding the half-life of a gradually increasing dose of Test-E and how this will affect time before beginning PCT. I plan to start at a pretty standard 500ml/week (dosing every 3.5 days) and continue this for 8 weeks, then gradually increase the dose by 50ml every other week to the end of the 16-week cycle, to see how my body responds. I've used the steroid calculator but I'm not sure how accurate it is with variable doses.

2) How long to wait before beginning PCT, after finishing a longer (16 week) cycle? The general advices suggests 2 weeks before beginning PCT, but this was the rule of thumb for shorter cycles and it contradicts what I've read about the half-life of Test-E. On here I've read 35 days before PCT (which also seems too long, based on the math). I've also read conflicting information about only Nolva (40/40/20/20) and Nolva + Clomid PCT.

3) AI consistently throughout cycle or as needed? A lot of conflicting information about this one, most of it seems to be anecdotal. If someone can point me towards data and studies, it would be appreciated.

4) Use of HCG. This is where I've done the least research. My general understanding is that it is expensive, complex, but useful in facilitating recovery (and can let one avoid playing a dangerous guessing game with PCT). More info about this would be appreciated (again, I go to different sources and read different things, and it's usually just strangers on the Internet sharing personal experience).

5) Schedule of labs. I'm getting pre-cycle labs 2 weeks from now (Week 0). I have labs planned again at Week 8 (mid-cycle, to see where Test E 500ml/wk puts me) and again at Week 16 (to see final levels). Is this going to provide enough information for me to make educated and responsible choices about how to use Test and how my body responds? Any resources on using final levels results to *actually* figure out how long I should wait before PCT and how long I should run PCT? I want to take the guesswork out of this and do it somewhat scientifically.


Cheers guys.

 

[Rido]

Solid intro.

This is what an intro should be. Amiright @T&H ?

Ill try to answer what I can soon OP

 

[Rido]

I've made progress over the last 2 years (dropping down from a fat 190-200 lbs in late 2020), but like most people interested in AAS, I'm interested in achieving more.

nice. good job

1) Understanding the half-life of a gradually increasing dose of Test-E and how this will affect time before beginning PCT. I plan to start at a pretty standard 500ml/week (dosing every 3.5 days) and continue this for 8 weeks, then gradually increase the dose by 50ml every other week to the end of the 16-week cycle, to see how my body responds. I've used the steroid calculator but I'm not sure how accurate it is with variable doses.

Why Test E?, just personal experience and reports of PIP... I had issues with it. to each their own. I would probably advise to start at 400 of test C for a few weeks, but thats my input.

2) How long to wait before beginning PCT, after finishing a longer (16 week) cycle? The general advices suggests 2 weeks before beginning PCT, but this was the rule of thumb for shorter cycles and it contradicts what I've read about the half-life of Test-E. On here I've read 35 days before PCT (which also seems too long, based on the math). I've also read conflicting information about only Nolva (40/40/20/20) and Nolva + Clomid PCT.

will defer the PCT discussion to someone else

3) AI consistently throughout cycle or as needed? A lot of conflicting information about this one, most of it seems to be anecdotal. If someone can point me towards data and studies, it would be appreciated.

You are right. there is a movement to say run Test high enough to not use an AI.

Some people say if you like high test, thats fine, and to use aromasin/arimidex for e2.

If you run high test with certain anabolics such as EQ primo which can lower e2 people can tolerate higher doses of test without the use of an AI.

Some people MIGHT be able to get away with mast.(Doesnt lower E2).

There wont be many studies on which is better. just side effect profiles of each AI.

I want to say most will agree to not deploy an AI unless you have a high e2 AND MOST IMPORTANTLY... symptoms.

4) Use of HCG. This is where I've done the least research. My general understanding is that it is expensive, complex, but useful in facilitating recovery (and can let one avoid playing a dangerous guessing game with PCT). More info about this would be appreciated (again, I go to different sources and read different things, and it's usually just strangers on the Internet sharing personal experience).

5) Schedule of labs. I'm getting pre-cycle labs 2 weeks from now (Week 0). I have labs planned again at Week 8 (mid-cycle, to see where Test E 500ml/wk puts me) and again at Week 16 (to see final levels). Is this going to provide enough information for me to make educated and responsible choices about how to use Test and how my body responds? Any resources on using final levels results to *actually* figure out how long I should wait before PCT and how long I should run PCT? I want to take the guesswork out of this and do it somewhat scientifically.

Please see link below

Comprehensive Guide to PCT

Comprehensive Guide to PCT - Revised 04-05-2014 at 23:15 GMT Proper PCT Protocol PCT should only begin when the body is in an environment to stimulate LH and FSH secretion. In the case of testosterone this environment is achieved once TT begins to dip below pre cycle TT levels. Therefore...

thinksteroids.com

My big piece of advice for any testosterone test is make sure you get Testosterone LC/MS. NOT ECLIA.

do you have your labs already picked out? how are you getting it done?

 

[T&H]

Sorry, no tits and no dicks. But now that I have your attention:

Found my way here through other sites, looking for cycle info and sources.

5'9, 175, 28 y/o (manlet). BF 13%. In and out of the gym for 10 years, started following a structured weightlifting/dieting program 2 years ago.

I did a half-assed "cycle" in early 2020 for 6 weeks of Test (Test-E, if I remember correctly) and Anavar, bought from my roommate. Had to cut it short because COVID and gym closures. That was probably a good thing, given I had no idea what I was doing and probably would have fucked myself up. Fortunately, I didn't experience any side effects when prematurely ending the cycle. Gains I made were minimal and lost in the following months due to lack of exercise/poor diet. Lessons learned.

I've made progress over the last 2 years (dropping down from a fat 190-200 lbs in late 2020), but like most people interested in AAS, I'm interested in achieving more.

I've spent the last 3 months researching what a responsible and limited first cycle would involve. I want to see how my body responds to different compounds and what works best, then make choices about future cycles based on the qualitative data (how I feel, how I look) and quantitative data (what does my bloodwork say?).

I still have a lot of questions about cycling, specifically about recovery planning:

1) Understanding the half-life of a gradually increasing dose of Test-E and how this will affect time before beginning PCT. I plan to start at a pretty standard 500ml/week (dosing every 3.5 days) and continue this for 8 weeks, then gradually increase the dose by 50ml every other week to the end of the 16-week cycle, to see how my body responds. I've used the steroid calculator but I'm not sure how accurate it is with variable doses.

2) How long to wait before beginning PCT, after finishing a longer (16 week) cycle? The general advices suggests 2 weeks before beginning PCT, but this was the rule of thumb for shorter cycles and it contradicts what I've read about the half-life of Test-E. On here I've read 35 days before PCT (which also seems too long, based on the math). I've also read conflicting information about only Nolva (40/40/20/20) and Nolva + Clomid PCT.

3) AI consistently throughout cycle or as needed? A lot of conflicting information about this one, most of it seems to be anecdotal. If someone can point me towards data and studies, it would be appreciated.

4) Use of HCG. This is where I've done the least research. My general understanding is that it is expensive, complex, but useful in facilitating recovery (and can let one avoid playing a dangerous guessing game with PCT). More info about this would be appreciated (again, I go to different sources and read different things, and it's usually just strangers on the Internet sharing personal experience).

5) Schedule of labs. I'm getting pre-cycle labs 2 weeks from now (Week 0). I have labs planned again at Week 8 (mid-cycle, to see where Test E 500ml/wk puts me) and again at Week 16 (to see final levels). Is this going to provide enough information for me to make educated and responsible choices about how to use Test and how my body responds? Any resources on using final levels results to *actually* figure out how long I should wait before PCT and how long I should run PCT? I want to take the guesswork out of this and do it somewhat scientifically.


Cheers guys.

Really good introduction. Refreshing to see someone did their homework rather than be spoonfed stuff they should learn. Criddi gave some great info, I'll add a few thoughts.

Can't help with hcg, never used it. But I'd move bloodwork to weeks 5 or 6. If you exhibit high estrogen before bloodwork, pick a dose and be consistent so you know how to adjust based off the bloodwork. Everyone metabolizes to E2 differently, I've learned genetics play a part and not just BF.

I don't think you need to increase the dose later on. Just run a solid 500mg per week. I guess you could, just see how you're feeling around that week. Your bloodwork is going to be based on 500mg. Going up could just provide more sides and a higher need for an AI with minimal return. You're already at high testosterone level as is.

The pct thread linked is great. I've never did a pct so I'd have to brush up to give my advice apart from that thread.

 

[ecohimbo]

Why Test E?, just personal experience and reports of PIP... I had issues with it. to each their own. I would probably advise to start at 400 of test C for a few weeks, but thats my input.

I don't remember having any issues with PIP the first time around (albeit I only injected maybe a dozen times in total). Is PIP more common with Test E? Or does it entirely depend on oil, manufacturing process of lab, injection technique, etc?

I opted for Test E over Test C because I know they're comparable (with Test C having a slightly longer half life), but there are more resources available for planning a beginner's Test E cycle. I was also able to find more medical literature about Test E administration and its effects in trials than for Test C.

You are right. there is a movement to say run Test high enough to not use an AI.

Some people say if you like high test, thats fine, and to use aromasin/arimidex for e2.

If you run high test with certain anabolics such as EQ primo which can lower e2 people can tolerate higher doses of test without the use of an AI.

Some people MIGHT be able to get away with mast.(Doesnt lower E2).

There wont be many studies on which is better. just side effect profiles of each AI.

I want to say most will agree to not deploy an AI unless you have a high e2 AND MOST IMPORTANTLY... symptoms.

"You are right. there is a movement to say run Test high enough to not use an AI." Can you explain what this means? I thought superphysiologic doses of Test -> shuts down natural Test production, causes aromatization and conversion of Test to E2 -> necessitates use of an AI?

Gonna have to do some reading on Mast (I've just skimmed).

Thank you for all of this. Might have to circle back and ask more specific questions in the future. I think the fundamental questions I have are "How much should I be taking and how often (so I know how much to buy)?" And that is an impossible question for you or anyone else to answer responsibly without me doing bloodwork.

The big takeaway from all my reading these last few months is 1) get an AI, just in case, 2) begin to use it at a low dose if mental/emotional/physical symptoms occur, as you said. No reason to fuck around with E2 for no reason.

My big piece of advice for any testosterone test is make sure you get Testosterone LC/MS. NOT ECLIA.

do you have your labs already picked out? how are you getting it done?

Thank you, didn't even think of that!

Initial lab and mid-cycle follow up are going to be covered through my insurance. I told my doctor what I'm doing. Her response was: I don't advise doing this, but you are going to make your own personal choices and I am going to ensure I can give you the best care possible and make sure you're not causing yourself harm. To do that, I need to see labs and you need to be honest with me about what you're taking, how much, and how often. The medical part of this is my business, its legality isn't.

The final lab at end of cycle will likely have to be paid out of pocket, though. Any recs for where I should get it done? And are there any *SPECIFIC* tests I should ask for when getting labs?

Thank you so much for your reply and your help! Sincerely appreciate it, man

 

[Rido]

I don't remember having any issues with PIP the first time around (albeit I only injected maybe a dozen times in total). Is PIP more common with Test E? Or does it entirely depend on oil, manufacturing process of lab, injection technique, etc?

It can differ from manufacturer. If its chinese raw based its definitely brewer based. I know how to give injections. The worst PIP I ever had was from PharmQO test E. The friend who gave it to me was fine, but me and another friend..(Who I am pretty much his drug/health marker coach) didnt like it at all.

if you got a hold of pharma test E. then I wouldn't worry.
There are plenty more reports of Test E pip.

there are enough studies over test C and anectodal experience over other bodybuilders. its up to you.

"You are right. there is a movement to say run Test high enough to not use an AI." Can you explain what this means? I thought superphysiologic doses of Test -> shuts down natural Test production, causes aromatization and conversion of Test to E2 -> necessitates use of an AI?

Gonna have to do some reading on Mast (I've just skimmed).

Thank you for all of this. Might have to circle back and ask more specific questions in the future. I think the fundamental questions I have are "How much should I be taking and how often (so I know how much to buy)?" And that is an impossible question for you or anyone else to answer responsibly without me doing bloodwork.

The big takeaway from all my reading these last few months is 1) get an AI, just in case, 2) begin to use it at a low dose if mental/emotional/physical symptoms occur, as you said. No reason to fuck around with E2 for no reason.

You naturally have aromatase enzymes in your body regardless if you are shutdown or not. Women do too.

For example, women can have increase aromatization from Test HRT.

Everyone has a sweet spot of where they do not need an AI. Most people that bodybuild run between 300-500 where they feel comfortable. fatter you are, the more you may aromatize.

You are absolutely able to go to a dose where you need an AI. Its more of personal preference. You will get into your groove later.

Mast is a weak anabolic steroid but can generate mass none the less. It is a DHT Derivative and is infamous for enlarging the prostate and making people go bald faster(maybe worse than some of the other stuff). I wouldnt say its a heavy hitter at all. not like Deca or Tren. wouldnt say its stronger than test Either.

I have 0 issue with it so it is my preference.

How much should you buy? Test is cheap. I always say Buy 2 extra bottles of what your estimated need is. just in case. one breaks, etc.


Must have on hand. AI(Arimidex or Aromasin),
Serm(Nolvadex or Raloxifene)
PCT protocol. ALWAYS HAVE EXTRA.

I would get a 30 day supply of a BP drug just in case. Telmisartan 40mg.

but yes. Do not fix what isnt broken. no reason to use an AI if you have 0 sides. e2 is also important for HDL levels

Thank you, didn't even think of that!

Initial lab and mid-cycle follow up are going to be covered through my insurance. I told my doctor what I'm doing. Her response was: I don't advise doing this, but you are going to make your own personal choices and I am going to ensure I can give you the best care possible and make sure you're not causing yourself harm. To do that, I need to see labs and you need to be honest with me about what you're taking, how much, and how often. The medical part of this is my business, its legality isn't.

The final lab at end of cycle will likely have to be paid out of pocket, though. Any recs for where I should get it done? And are there any *SPECIFIC* tests I should ask for when getting labs?

Total and free test LCMS
Lipid
CBC
CMP
sensitive estradiol(if you ever run 19nor you may need ultrasensitive)

 

[ecohimbo]

Really good introduction. Refreshing to see someone did their homework rather than be spoonfed stuff they should learn. Criddi gave some great info, I'll add a few thoughts.

Can't help with hcg, never used it. But I'd move bloodwork to weeks 5 or 6. If you exhibit high estrogen before bloodwork, pick a dose and be consistent so you know how to adjust based off the bloodwork. Everyone metabolizes to E2 differently, I've learned genetics play a part and not just BF.

I don't think you need to increase the dose later on. Just run a solid 500mg per week. I guess you could, just see how you're feeling around that week. Your bloodwork is going to be based on 500mg. Going up could just provide more sides and a higher need for an AI with minimal return. You're already at high testosterone level as is.

The pct thread linked is great. I've never did a pct so I'd have to brush up to give my advice apart from that thread.

Thank you very much!

Just reviewed the half-life math for Test-E and, yes, doing Labs Week 5/6 makes a lot more sense. If I understand correctly, that's when the amount of available Test E has finished building up and stabilized, and from there out it will start to have consistent peaks and valleys until the cycle ends.




I'm going to read more about HCG and then make a thread in the PCT forum. I want to ask some semi-educated questions about the when, how, and why of using it vs AI & Serms.

Aromasin as needed + Nolva EDx4weeks 40/40/20/20 sounds easy to do, but I'd like to keep everything working as it should be instead of turning it off/on, if possible

 

[SkankHunt]

Welcome. Before you hop on a cycle make sure you can commit to training and dieting. As you’ve mentioned that was your downfall previously. Keep it simple with 400-500mg of Cyp a week. Get bloods done prior to starting so you have a baseline.

 

[HUGE McBIGLARGE]

I use 100iu HCG daily into my butt by subq while on T. Put my balls back to normal size.

I don’t care much about tiny balls or fertility (had the snip), but I do care about all of the other benefits of HCG.

If you can afford HCG, I’d recommend taking it just to mitigate the side effect of small balls and other testiculargenic hormones being diminished.

 

[OilCarrier]

I use 100iu HCG daily into my butt by subq while on T. Put my balls back to normal size.

I don’t care much about tiny balls or fertility (had the snip), but I do care about all of the other benefits of HCG.

If you can afford HCG, I’d recommend taking it just to mitigate the side effect of small balls and other testiculargenic hormones being diminished.

which benefits do you notice? i got irritation and a bigger penis at rest.

 

[HUGE McBIGLARGE]

which benefits do you notice? i got irritation and a bigger penis at rest.

none lol. But it’s meant to help with stuff like DHEA. At least my balls ain’t small though