Culling the population

[Hogg]

Just about everyone on this baord knows what I do for a living. Better yet my calling in life. This post by Hogg kinda got to me. IMO, i do not think life was better under Clinton. For me as a pastor no way was it. I will be voting for Bush again this November, because I cannot as a pastor vote for Kerry. Yes, I believe that the war in Iraq is a mess, and that we might have not gone about it the right way. But at least Bush is against abortion, partial birth abortion, stem cell research, and so forth. The point is, depending on your views either Bush or Kerry is a monster. I am sad to say that our choices this election are very poor, and either way we get screwed. The question is who will screw us over more.

Funny, I have a 65 year old coworker who just made it through 9 months of treatment at City of Hope and beat bone cancer....he is now in remission thanks to.....STEM CELL RESEARCH.

So, at least Bush is against abortion, partial birth abortion, etc.....but in the same token, he would send your son to the front to fight his war in a heartbeat.......if you want to save babies, that's fine, but when does a parent value his own children less than a child that is not his own? Either way, he spills blood through his actions. Also, lets consider an 18 year old mother who is pregnant as a result of some fling she had with some scumbag at a party....is she ready to be a mother? Is she likely to care for the child? Is she likely to create a miserable life for that child which will ultimately cause he/she to become a ward of the system??? Most unloved kids do.....and quite frankly, I am fairly certain that there are people in our world today who wish they were never born. Granted, abortion is not a solution for a lack of responsibility....yet I can see, as an intellectual - my spiritual side completely disconnected - where abortion is indeed viable for both mother and offspring. The world is full of unwanted people....there is no legitimate reason for increasing their numbers.

Bush also has no problem taking your civil liberties from you rather than to crush the source.....dont get me wrong, most all politicians are scum in my book and Bush is certainly better than Kerry, hell, he's a psycho....but the fact remains that there have been past presidents who have done a much better job than Bush has....and Clinton was one of them.....and I consider myself a republican even though I made that statement. You have to call a spade a spade, truth should never be overlooked for sake of supporting a less than competent candidate.

 

[Hogg]

i know what you meant hogg, i wasn't taking it at face value. i

I know you did , this is what triggered my clarification:

that aside, since we are there, i dont think we should leave the job undone...much like vietnam. yes hogg, i see your point as far as canada crossing the border and trying to change the US. however, we never threatened canada with sucide/homicide bombers....car bombs....and we never flew an Air Canada plane into the heart of their economy and their military establishment.

 

[garyzilla]

Funny, I have a 65 year old coworker who just made it through 9 months of treatment at City of Hope and beat bone cancer....he is now in remission thanks to.....STEM CELL RESEARCH.

So, at least Bush is against abortion, partial birth abortion, etc.....but in the same token, he would send your son to the front to fight his war in a heartbeat.......if you want to save babies, that's fine, but when does a parent value his own children less than a child that is not his own? Either way, he spills blood through his actions. Also, lets consider an 18 year old mother who is pregnant as a result of some fling she had with some scumbag at a party....is she ready to be a mother? Is she likely to care for the child? Is she likely to create a miserable life for that child which will ultimately cause he/she to become a ward of the system??? Most unloved kids do.....and quite frankly, I am fairly certain that there are people in our world today who wish they were never born. Granted, abortion is not a solution for a lack of responsibility....yet I can see, as an intellectual - my spiritual side completely disconnected - where abortion is indeed viable for both mother and offspring. The world is full of unwanted people....there is no legitimate reason for increasing their numbers.

Bush also has no problem taking your civil liberties from you rather than to crush the source.....dont get me wrong, most all politicians are scum in my book and Bush is certainly better than Kerry, hell, he's a psycho....but the fact remains that there have been past presidents who have done a much better job than Bush has....and Clinton was one of them.....and I consider myself a republican even though I made that statement. You have to call a spade a spade, truth should never be overlooked for sake of supporting a less than competent candidate.

Hogg have you ever served in the military? I have in the Air force, and I knew going in that there was chance that I could go to war, and yes die. Nobody made me sign up, I did on my own. So I do not want to hear someone complain that the president sent there child off to war. If the person did not want to go off to war, then they should have nerver signed up, period! It is a volunteer military.

The stem cells that I cam talking about are the stem cells from aborted babies. You can get the same stem cells from the ambilical cord, if that is where the get the cells I have no problem with the research!

Like I said, I believe that we as americans are in a no win situation!

 

[Hogg]

Hogg have you ever served in the military? I have in the Air force, and I knew going in that there was chance that I could go to war, and yes die. Nobody made me sign up, I did on my own. So I do not want to hear someone complain that the president sent there child off to war. If the person did not want to go off to war, then they should have nerver signed up, period! It is a volunteer military.

True, and good point too....

The stem cells that I cam talking about are the stem cells from aborted babies. You can get the same stem cells from the ambilical cord, if that is where the get the cells I have no problem with the research!

Ahhh, ok, I see. We were talking about a topic with a very broad scope and each of us was thinking of a specific idea. in my case, my coworker's stem cells were harvested and them put back in his body. This process took months but ultimately, it worked......and it was well worth it.

I can see your point. I'm one who believes that neither humans nor animals should be used for research purposes ....yet I concede that research is necessary to further the science of medicine......so I tend to side with the less heinous options....and I would agree that the umbilical would be far more palletable to me than to take them from aborted fetuses.

Like I said, I believe that we as americans are in a no win situation!

I agree....we're screwed no matter what.

 

[garyzilla]

True, and good point too....




Ahhh, ok, I see. We were talking about a topic with a very broad scope and each of us was thinking of a specific idea. in my case, my coworker's stem cells were harvested and them put back in his body. This process took months but ultimately, it worked......and it was well worth it.

I can see your point. I'm one who believes that neither humans nor animals should be used for research purposes ....yet I concede that research is necessary to further the science of medicine......so I tend to side with the less heinous options....and I would agree that the umbilical would be far more palletable to me than to take them from aborted fetuses.





I agree....we're screwed no matter what.

I am very glad we can agree and have a very intelligent conversation Hogg! Have a great Easter! Blessings!

-Pastor Garyzilla

 

[Hogg]

I am very glad we can agree and have a very intelligent conversation Hogg! Have a great Easter! Blessings!

-Pastor Garyzilla

To you as well GZ.

 

[Mark Kerr]

There is no doubt Iraq is a mess, only a fool could say it isnt. However, this is by no means a reason to leave the area. I've said it before, and I will say it again, because no one seems to care for my point Anyways, after WWI, post-war Germany and Japan WERE A MESS TOO. Our occupying soldiers were dying left and right from radicals who believed their side was correct. In fact, historically, it was WORSE in Japan than it is in Iraq right now! But no one likes to believe that. NO ONE wants to put the work into rebuilding a country, they only want the fun part of blowing their shit up! On that note...

I think the United States Presidency IS arrogant, because the Bush Administration seems to think that they can fix the problems in the Middle East. They seem to think that democracy will make everything better. In fact, it seems like the administration thinks that Saddam and bin Laden are the only people creating turmoil in that area. In short, there were wars thousands of years before the United States got involved, and there will be wars for thousands of years after we leave. Our occupation will be a mere "historical blip" in that region.

We need to set-up a new government, and GTFO as fast as possible. Then, when war breaks out AGAIN, we can all come to the conclusion our efforts were in vain! YAY!

 

[crewboss]

i hear you Hogg, the US is in a tough spot. 59 years ago this September, Japan didn't like listening to the US either. Here we are in 2004 and they're one of the most productive societies on the face of the earth. in many respects, they continue beat us at our own game. they maintained their culture and simultaneously adopted free economy. that's progress. I realize the dissimilarities with Iraq, the idea is still there. anyway, if my aunt had a set of nuts she'd be my uncle. i hope i didn't come off as a smart ass Hogg, take care and have a great weekend w/ your family my friend. peace crew.

 

[jarz]

Hogg, you are the man!!! I could not have said it better.

I do admit, I am beside myself.

You can get away with saying such things without threats of being banned...or harsh words being cast in your direction.

I see alot of those that were extremely aggresive toward me and my opinion agreeing with you. This does confuse me. You must be one powerful man.

 

[Hogg]

I am no more powerful than anyone on this board and certainly the premise of being cast out applies to me as well. I mean, moderator or not, were it that the board felt my views and actions were contra to the overall good of the board, I would hope that they would make an effort to remove me.

If I have an alternative view of a situation or engage in a debate/argument/discussion and I can argue my own position effectively with supporting data or perhaps hypothetical scenarios as I have represented in this thread, I will let my words flow even if those words do not follow popular sentiment of the board or of individuals here....it is a constitutional liberty to be able to speak one's mind.... especially if you can support your position. Granted, others may argue against you, but if you have a legitimate argument, then the words should flow. I suppose that the intensity with which one argues his point is ultimately tied to his knowledge of the subject or perhaps his passion.

I am not aware of your particular situation however, a man should not silence himself nor allow himself to be silenced if he has a valid point. Granted, there are threshholds that should not be crossed in any discussion....certain taboo and illegal subjects come to mind....but barring those topics, I cannot see where threats of being banned are valid.

I tend to use the option of banning people less than some of my colleagues and I certainly cannot speak for their actions.

And BTW, I am certainly not a powerful man, a fairly bright kid with common sense weighing as much in his decisions as mathematics, yes, but powerful, no.

Hogg, you are the man!!! I could not have said it better.

I do admit, I am beside myself.

You can get away with saying such things without threats of being banned...or harsh words being cast in your direction.

I see alot of those that were extremely aggresive toward me and my opinion agreeing with you. This does confuse me. You must be one powerful man.

 

[Hogg]

And now for my editorial on recent events in Iraq

Well well well, lets see, the iraqis are now using US hostages to bring about a cease fire, clearly a violation of the gentlemen's rules of war, and rather cowardly if you ask me. How can you fight an enemy that refuses to play by the rules? I see this entire situation as an equation with no solution; we cannot count on known variables as the iraqis tend to introduce new variables whenever it suits them. No matter the outcome of the siege of Fallulah (sp - who cares), we still lost. The fact that men and women from this country are meeting death in a barren armpit in the middle east makes this situation a loser. Unlike the former soviet union or perhaps china, Iraq poses little threat to the US. Granted, they pose a threat to US interests in certain middle eastern countries, but certainly not to the continental US nor its outlying interests......do you think the iraqis will ever set sail for hawaii and take the islands? Will they ever aggregate their navy and attack the eastern seaboard or send their troops up the yucatan peninsula and make a charge on our southern borders? No, absolutely not. Will Iraq pose a threat to NATO countries other than the US? Perhaps a limited threat, but a unified response would crush them. I just cannot see the benefit. We should be using our open door policy with the Russians and joint venturing oil production from Russia's vast oil deposits....I cannot see how this toilet bowl of a country has anything to offer us other than an immense debt load and a lot of new bodies to push up daisies in Arlington National Cemetary.

 

[Bob Smith]

Hogg, you are the man!!! I could not have said it better.

I do admit, I am beside myself.

You can get away with saying such things without threats of being banned...or harsh words being cast in your direction.

I see alot of those that were extremely aggresive toward me and my opinion agreeing with you. This does confuse me. You must be one powerful man.

I'll ban Hogg's ass for steppin outta line!

I wouldnt say that Hogg is powerful, but he commands respect from anyone that spends more than a day or two around here. Always well spoken and supports his arguements. this also gets into why no one really bitches when Hogg disagrees with him. He doesnt make it personal. Most people let their arguement degrade so much that it ends up being one big pissing match saying how Person A ragged Person B's mom in the ass last night. Thats lame and wont get anyone respect or attention. Hogg "The Mallard Chaser" makes his arguements in a well written and fairly eloquent manner. Thats why there is no threat of bannishment from our beautiful Isle de Meso.

Plus, he and I agree on most topics, so we dont really debate a great deal. Well, other than the fact that his Ms needs to learn to relax and take one in the pooper for the team.

 

[Hogg]

LOL...thanks BS.

As far as Ms. Hogg, I hope she never gives up her stance on that issue because at that point, I know she will only be doing it for me and not herself.....thats not something I want.

I should also point out, the difference between myself and some of the other guys is, when I find that I am not totally knowledgable on a subject and thus schooled by one of the brethren, I realize that my position is invalid.....that was one of a half dozen concepts that I learned in school....I cannot remember how to do a fourier series on my own but my mind has been re-wired such that I am willing to change my position and learn from others when I find that my views are faulty in some way....thats really the big difference, being open and not carrying any sort of machismo about one's own opinion......being able to realize when you are wrong and to then learn why....that is a very important concept. Some folks around here get ready with a round of "fuck you"'s when they are shown that they are wrong, that is the difference.....to realize when you are wrong and to learn why.

LOL.....nowadays, every time I post, its a paragraph or two....but it seems like it takes that much just to get a point across. I guess it is better to be long-winded and understood than to be short-spoken and misinterpreted.

Hope everybody had a good easter.

H

I'll ban Hogg's ass for steppin outta line!

I wouldnt say that Hogg is powerful, but he commands respect from anyone that spends more than a day or two around here. Always well spoken and supports his arguements. this also gets into why no one really bitches when Hogg disagrees with him. He doesnt make it personal. Most people let their arguement degrade so much that it ends up being one big pissing match saying how Person A ragged Person B's mom in the ass last night. Thats lame and wont get anyone respect or attention. Hogg "The Mallard Chaser" makes his arguements in a well written and fairly eloquent manner. Thats why there is no threat of bannishment from our beautiful Isle de Meso.

Plus, he and I agree on most topics, so we dont really debate a great deal. Well, other than the fact that his Ms needs to learn to relax and take one in the pooper for the team.

 

[Bob Smith]

Hope you and the Ms had a great Easter as well.

 

[Rod]

We did not invade Iraq for humanitarian purposes (i.e. to free a people from a cruel dictatorship). We did not invade Iraq to steal their oil. Does anyone really think that the US will profit from this endeavor? I believe that we invaded Iraq because the Bush admin was worried about the threat of WMD in the hand of those in the Middle East who hate us pose to our citizens. It appeared that Iraq had WMD. Does anyone think that if Iraq had WMD that Saddam would not have second thoughts about giving them to anti-US terrorists?

Oh never mind, I dont have time to debate politics.

 

[Hogg]

ok, no WMD, the threat to the world does not exist.....so why are we still there?

Come on now, its time to debate politics

We did not invade Iraq for humanitarian purposes (i.e. to free a people from a cruel dictatorship). We did not invade Iraq to steal their oil. Does anyone really think that the US will profit from this endeavor? I believe that we invaded Iraq because the Bush admin was worried about the threat of WMD in the hand of those in the Middle East who hate us pose to our citizens. It appeared that Iraq had WMD. Does anyone think that if Iraq had WMD that Saddam would not have second thoughts about giving them to anti-US terrorists?

Oh never mind, I dont have time to debate politics.

 

[Rod]

ok, no WMD, the threat to the world does not exist.....so why are we still there?

Come on now, its time to debate politics

You can't just invade a country, wipe out the existing govt' and then leave. It violates the gentlemens rules of correct military conduct. You have to stick around and make an attempt to restore some semblance of law and order. We may very well fail, but we just can't cut and run. It would leave a power vacuum; the worst elements of that society would rise to the top. After much blood shed we would end up with a brutal regime.

 

[Hogg]

what do you do if the people of the country are unwilling to form a new government and enforce its constitution? Is it then encumbent upon us to prop up their government and maintain it ?

You can't just invade a country, wipe out the existing govt' and then leave. It violates the gentlemens rules of correct military conduct. You have to stick around and make an attempt to restore some semblance of law and order. We may very well fail, but we just can't cut and run. It would leave a power vacuum; the worst elements of that society would rise to the top. After much blood shed we would end up with a brutal regime.

 

[Hogg]

And by the way, I agree that there is danger of a power vacuum and that we should exercise due diligence in restoring order.....but I just do not see the iraqi people being able to maintain the government that we are helping them to create.

 

[Rod]

what do you do if the people of the country are unwilling to form a new government and enforce its constitution? Is it then encumbent upon us to prop up their government and maintain it ?

No definitely not. But, I do think that we need to really try. I, as well, have serious doubts about the people of Iraq having the moral capital to maintain a successful democracy.