Deca and joint pain

[hooker]

I am also interested how deca can any effect on either the progesterone mediated immune response or the glucocorticoid receptor

never in my studies on Progesterone do they mention that it will sooth joint pain in anyw ay shape or form - and I also have no clue what that second thing is

I can only imagine that someone who is on staff at so many fine & reputable anabolic steroid discussion boards is only asking these questions out of playing devils advocate, and therefore trying to elicit an answer in order to educate some of the novices...

Since all of what I'm going to say is basically common knowledge...

But I'll play along- since I know you already know all of this and are simply trying to engender a didactic response from me, and not post the answers (which surely you must know) yourself...

Basically:

Nandrolone is a progestin. It therefore, by definition, stimulates the progesterone receptor. As you know already, all steroids based on the 19-nor testosterone configuration, stimulate the progesterone receptor to some degree. Progesterone, again as I'm sure you know, is a mediator of part of the human body's immune response.

The glucocorticoid receptor is well documented to be affected by all anabolic steroids. In fact, it is thought that this constitutes some part of their effects. TO be more detailed than this would be a bit silly, since it would involve a lengthy description of glucocorticoid antagonism - and possibly the inclusion of hetrodimer ligand/glucocorticoid pairings with the ligand/AR pair.

Interesting, because a top (world class) strength coach and I were having this same conversation. If you wish to know about Progesterone and soothing joint pain, the easiest place to look is in pregnant women. It is well documented that flexibility parameters sometimes go down postmenopausal women, and joint pain (especially that of the chronic type) rises...in response to the lowering of estrogen and progesterone. But there aren't any estrogen receptors (*not generally) in synovial tissue. So it's not a direct action, but possibly a systemic reaction to an immune response. I believe the bulk of the evidence supports this idea.

I think (my own theory) that this is the body's way to adapt to support the extra weight and stress of the fetus, and in the sense of evolution, this would be a very useful trait for the female of the species.

 

[bg65]

I can only imagine that someone who is on staff at so many fine & reputable anabolic steroid discussion boards is only asking these questions out of playing devils advocate, and therefore trying to elicit an answer in order to educate some of the novices...

Since all of what I'm going to say is basically common knowledge...

But I'll play along- since I know you already know all of this and are simply trying to engender a didactic response from me, and not post the answers (which surely you must know) yourself...

Basically:

Nandrolone is a progestin. It therefore, by definition, stimulates the progesterone receptor. As you know already, all steroids based on the 19-nor testosterone configuration, stimulate the progesterone receptor to some degree. Progesterone, again as I'm sure you know, is a mediator of part of the human body's immune response.

The glucocorticoid receptor is well documented to be affected by all anabolic steroids. In fact, it is thought that this constitutes some part of their effects. TO be more detailed than this would be a bit silly, since it would involve a lengthy description of glucocorticoid antagonism - and possibly the inclusion of hetrodimer ligand/glucocorticoid pairings with the ligand/AR pair.

Interesting, because a top (world class) strength coach and I were having this same conversation. If you wish to know about Progesterone and soothing joint pain, the easiest place to look is in pregnant women. It is well documented that flexibility parameters sometimes go down postmenopausal women, and joint pain (especially that of the chronic type) rises...in response to the lowering of estrogen and progesterone. But there aren't any estrogen receptors (*not generally) in synovial tissue. So it's not a direct action, but possibly a systemic reaction to an immune response. I believe the bulk of the evidence supports this idea.

I think (my own theory) that this is the body's way to adapt to support the extra weight and stress of the fetus, and in the sense of evolution, this would be a very useful trait for the female of the species.

Is your book written in the same pedantic manner as your posts? If so, I do not think that many people could bear to read it.

 

[Deacon]

I can only imagine that someone who is on staff at so many fine & reputable anabolic steroid discussion boards is only asking these questions out of playing devils advocate, and therefore trying to elicit an answer in order to educate some of the novices...

Since all of what I'm going to say is basically common knowledge...

But I'll play along- since I know you already know all of this and are simply trying to engender a didactic response from me, and not post the answers (which surely you must know) yourself...

Basically:

Nandrolone is a progestin. It therefore, by definition, stimulates the progesterone receptor. As you know already, all steroids based on the 19-nor testosterone configuration, stimulate the progesterone receptor to some degree. Progesterone, again as I'm sure you know, is a mediator of part of the human body's immune response.

The glucocorticoid receptor is well documented to be affected by all anabolic steroids. In fact, it is thought that this constitutes some part of their effects. TO be more detailed than this would be a bit silly, since it would involve a lengthy description of glucocorticoid antagonism - and possibly the inclusion of hetrodimer ligand/glucocorticoid pairings with the ligand/AR pair.

Interesting, because a top (world class) strength coach and I were having this same conversation. If you wish to know about Progesterone and soothing joint pain, the easiest place to look is in pregnant women. It is well documented that flexibility parameters sometimes go down postmenopausal women, and joint pain (especially that of the chronic type) rises...in response to the lowering of estrogen and progesterone. But there aren't any estrogen receptors (*not generally) in synovial tissue. So it's not a direct action, but possibly a systemic reaction to an immune response. I believe the bulk of the evidence supports this idea.

I think (my own theory) that this is the body's way to adapt to support the extra weight and stress of the fetus, and in the sense of evolution, this would be a very useful trait for the female of the species.

in fact that was what I was looking for - except I would have appreciated it if you would have used layman's terms so that the younger newbies would have been able to better understand your explanation.
I am going to look further into this progesterone theory though - I must have missed this last time - at least where it relates to the rise in progesterone and joint pain relief

 

[Deacon]

Nandrolone is a progestin. It therefore, by definition, stimulates the progesterone receptor. As you know already, all steroids based on the 19-nor testosterone configuration, stimulate the progesterone receptor to some degree. Progesterone, again as I'm sure you know, is a mediator of part of the human body's immune response.

The glucocorticoid receptor is well documented to be affected by all anabolic steroids. In fact, it is thought that this constitutes some part of their effects. TO be more detailed than this would be a bit silly, since it would involve a lengthy description of glucocorticoid antagonism - and possibly the inclusion of hetrodimer ligand/glucocorticoid pairings with the ligand/AR pair.



so in your own words there is no real science to prove this?

 

[hooker]

Is your book written in the same pedantic manner as your posts? If so, I do not think that many people could bear to read it.

When replying to someone (Deacon) who has already read my work on Nandrolone and Joints (apparently, since he criticized it)- my reply is going to sound irritated, yes.

When replying to someone who starts threads like "Kneller arrested - is Roberts next" ...yes, my tone is going to seem annoyed.

My book is written in the kind of tone I would talk to a friend in...But people who speculate on whether I'm going to be arrested, criticize my work incorrectly, and egregiously accuse me of plagorism - are not my friend.

Thank god he's got no real influence in the industry. My book is advertised where he posts (here) and where he is an "Admin" (MMS) as well as numerous sites he visits.

SO the answer is no, my book is not written in the tone I reply to my detractors in.

 

[Deacon]

When replying to someone (Deacon) who has already read my work on Nandrolone and Joints (apparently, since he criticized it)- my reply is going to sound irritated, yes.

When replying to someone who starts threads like "Kneller arrested - is Roberts next" ...yes, my tone is going to seem annoyed.

My book is written in the kind of tone I would talk to a friend in...But people who speculate on whether I'm going to be arrested, criticize my work incorrectly, and egregiously accuse me of plagorism - are not my friend.

Thank god he's got no real influence in the industry. My book is advertised where he posts (here) and where he is an "Admin" (MMS) as well as numerous sites he visits.

SO the answer is no, my book is not written in the tone I reply to my detractors in.

your arrogance is unbelievable - you show your true character in your posts - I dont even need to say much about you - you are your own worse enemy

 

[hooker]

Nandrolone is a progestin. It therefore, by definition, stimulates the progesterone receptor. As you know already, all steroids based on the 19-nor testosterone configuration, stimulate the progesterone receptor to some degree. Progesterone, again as I'm sure you know, is a mediator of part of the human body's immune response.

The glucocorticoid receptor is well documented to be affected by all anabolic steroids. In fact, it is thought that this constitutes some part of their effects. TO be more detailed than this would be a bit silly, since it would involve a lengthy description of glucocorticoid antagonism - and possibly the inclusion of hetrodimer ligand/glucocorticoid pairings with the ligand/AR pair.



so in your own words there is no real science to prove this?

No. Actually, there is tons. Where does it say "There is no sciene to support this" in my post? There is ample proof ofall of my claims. Most of the references can be found in my Deca article. Pubmed/Medline/google will easily turn up the rest. Actually all can be found on www.mindandmuscle.net in the online magazine. I suggest starting there.

I have limited time to spend online, and I can't be asked to spend 45mins to an hour looking up and then posting the references you are asking for. They are easily found by searching, and should you wish to find them, fully anotated and in article form, check out Mind and Muscle.

It's all basic stuff though, really.

Remember, this is my job- and asking me to do it for 45 mins a day, for free, is a bit unfair.

 

[hooker]

your arrogance is unbelievable - you show your true character in your posts - I dont even need to say much about you - you are your own worse enemy

You start threads bashing me when I am not even here...it's sad that I am so important to you.

DO you know when I talk about you?

Never.

You, on the other hand, mention me everywhere, even when I'm not around or even posting.

It's kind of sad, really, to be so infatuated with me that you start threads with my name in the title, when I'm not even an active member of a board.

 

[Deacon]

Interesting, because a top (world class) strength coach and I were having this same conversation. If you wish to know about Progesterone and soothing joint pain, the easiest place to look is in pregnant women. It is well documented that flexibility parameters sometimes go down postmenopausal women, and joint pain (especially that of the chronic type) rises...in response to the lowering of estrogen and progesterone. But there aren't any estrogen receptors (*not generally) in synovial tissue. So it's not a direct action, but possibly a systemic reaction to an immune response. I believe the bulk of the evidence supports this idea.

I think (my own theory) that this is the body's way to adapt to support the extra weight and stress of the fetus, and in the sense of evolution, this would be a very useful trait for the female of the species.


but this leads me to believe that it is nothing but conjecture on your part - you say yourself - "I think" - you dont have anything other than a hypothesis on the matter from what I read.

In the old west they would tar and feather snake oil salesmen

 

[hooker]

Interesting, because a top (world class) strength coach and I were having this same conversation. If you wish to know about Progesterone and soothing joint pain, the easiest place to look is in pregnant women. It is well documented that flexibility parameters sometimes go down postmenopausal women, and joint pain (especially that of the chronic type) rises...in response to the lowering of estrogen and progesterone. But there aren't any estrogen receptors (*not generally) in synovial tissue. So it's not a direct action, but possibly a systemic reaction to an immune response. I believe the bulk of the evidence supports this idea.

I think (my own theory) that this is the body's way to adapt to support the extra weight and stress of the fetus, and in the sense of evolution, this would be a very useful trait for the female of the species.


but this leads me to believe that it is nothing but conjecture on your part - you say yourself - "I think" - you dont have anything other than a hypothesis on the matter from what I read.

In the old west they would tar and feather snake oil salesmen

The part saying "I think" was with regards to my theory on WHY this happens, not whether it does or does not happen. It has been well documented to happen, and the Mechanism of Action is known...my speculation ("I think") is simply as to what part of our evolutionary adaptation caused it.

 

[Deacon]

I dont have to bring up your name - there are plenty of others who do - I just agree with them - it seems your apparent brilliance has the same effect on people

 

[hooker]

I dont have to bring up your name - there are plenty of others who do - I just agree with them - it seems your apparent brilliance has the same effect on people

Anyway, back to the topic...

You do realize that I was speculating on something that will never, by definition, be known, right?

And that the rest of the steps leading up to my speculation are all accepted scientific ideas?


DO you really not know such basics about anabolic steroids such as glucorticoid receptor interaction? Or about Progesterone? Seriously?

 

[hooker]

I dont have to bring up your name - there are plenty of others who do - I just agree with them - it seems your apparent brilliance has the same effect on people

I would say you ought to not be talking about me with random people on the boards...instead, talk to some world class powerlifters, strength coaches, etc...

And see what they have to say about me. Because thats who I actually care about the opinion of. Mods/Vets/Admins/ typically aren't really credible in the industry I am in.

 

[liftsiron]

This was written by the late Karl Hoffman (Nandi12) and explains how deca exhibits an antiinflammatory effect.


Androgens, Estrogens, and The Immune Response
I posted this reply recently on another board to the question "Do androgens suppress or stimulate the immune system"

It's really not quite correct to say androgens suppress or stimulate the immune system. It is a bit more complicated than that, not surprisingly.

Here is Immunology 101 in a nutshell. The immune system has two "arms of attack": the cell mediated arm and the humoral arm. The cell mediated arm, or cellular immunity, responds to general assaults on the body by sending out immune cells to do things like attack invading organisms, or degrade necrotic tissue, in a non specific manner. By non specific it is meant that the immune cells do not recognize the invader as a specific target with which they are familiar. Inflammation is an example of a cell mediated response. When you get a sliver or strain a muscle the body sends immune cells there to wall off the site, increase blood flow, remove damaged tissue, etc.

Humoral immunity involves B lymphocytes that secrete antibodies that bind to the target and allow immune cells to recognize the target immediately as an invader and launch an attack. When you are vaccinated for something, like smallpox, you are injected with a small inactive piece of the virus. This primes your body to make large numbers of B cell clones that, if ever challenged with smallpox for real, pump out antibodies that mark the virus for destruction by other cells. The big advantage of this system is that it is fast and efficient. The disadvantage is that it is very specific. The cellular response is not as efficient but it works against any invader, not just one for which there already exist primed clonal B cells.

There is an emerging model of how the sex steroids regulate the two arms of the immune system. It is thought that testosterone stimulates the humoral arm and suppresses the cellular arm. This paradigm arose from the study of autoimmune diseases which overwhelmingly plague women more than men. The majority of autoimmune diseases involve a cellular immune system gone wild. Since in men testosterone suppresses cellular immunity, men are much less likely to suffer from these diseases, like rheumatoid arthritis.

So when NFG123 mentioned that androgens are antiinflammatory, this is kind of what it means technically. Some steroids seem to have stronger effects than others. So when people say deca improves joints because it makes you hold water, that is nonsense. It is an antiinflmmatory because it suppresses cell mediated immunity, which controls inflammation. it has nothing to do with water.

Why is deca's reputation as an antiinflammatory better than testosterone's for example? My guess is the minimal aromatization and its progestogenic activity. If you link to the article below and open the graphic, you will see a couple of interesting things.

First, progesterone, like testosterone, stimulates humoral immunity (the TH2 mediated response in the graphic) and suppresses cellular immunity (TH1 response). So progesterone has antiinflammatory action.

Second, estrogen exerts a biphasic effect. At low doses it is proinflammatory, stimulating the TH1 arm of the immune system (cellular immunity) and inflammation.

Deca then works both as an androgen and a progestin to quell inflammation. Testosterone, by virtue of its aromatization to estrogen is an inferior antiinflammatory.

If you want to learn more about sex hormones and immunity, this is a good article to start with

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conte...y=JsdA5F3s0DHFo

 

[Deacon]

now see that article is easy to read and understand

 

[hooker]

now see that article is easy to read and understand

My article on that same topic has basically all the same information, to be honest, because I used a few of the same references. I also followed a lead provided by Pat Aronold with regards to taking Karl's work a step farther and using it to explain why Winstrol hurts your joints.

And, since you seem to be a fan of him (so am I, obviously, since in my book I explicitly dedicate it to him and mention him as being a major influence, inspiration, and source of information) ...here's another by Karl, explaining androgens and the glucocorticoid interaction:

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/mindandmuscle/magpage.php?issueID=22&artID=999281

I also, by the way mention Duchaine as an influence in my book.

He aparently influenced Karl quite a bit also, since the product Karl helped bring to the market (a forskoli product )is something Duchaine mentioned about a half decade prior to Karl developing it as a supp for USP labs.

Karl and I were e-mailing quite a bit until his passing...since we both were actually writing for mind and muscle, and I often consulted with him in this way. I was, if anyone remembers, writing with him, and was a mod with him on 2 or three boards prior to that.

Anyway, enjoy the Article.

 

[Deacon]

I will read it thanks

BTW I really dont have anything against you - I just like fucking with you - but I will knock it off now and call a truce

 

[hooker]

I am also interested how deca can any effect on either the progesterone mediated immune response or the glucocorticoid receptor

never in my studies on Progesterone do they mention that it will sooth joint pain in anyw ay shape or form - and I also have no clue what that second thing is

Weird.

Because in this post:

https://thinksteroids.com/community/posts/468956

...you copy/paste a Llewellyn article which has a reference to the Glucocorticoid receptor.

Since you have "no clue what that is"...(your own words)

This leads me to believe you don't fully understand the articles you read, and that when there is a word in them that you don't understand, you don't even bother to learn what it is.

Then, apparently, without knowing what the article actually says, you repost it.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

Become Mod/Admin all over the 'net.

Nice.

 

[DocJ]

*sigh* So does nandrolone interact with the glucocorticoid receptor in a "different" way than other aas?

 

[DocJ]

If you wish to know about Progesterone and soothing joint pain, the easiest place to look is in pregnant women. It is well documented that flexibility parameters sometimes go down postmenopausal women, and joint pain (especially that of the chronic type) rises...in response to the lowering of estrogen and progesterone[/COLOR].[/B] But there aren't any estrogen receptors (*not generally) in synovial tissue. So it's not a direct action, but possibly a systemic reaction to an immune response. I believe the bulk of the evidence supports this idea.

I think (my own theory) that this is the body's way to adapt to support the extra weight and stress of the fetus, and in the sense of evolution, this would be a very useful trait for the female of the species.

I find this confusing...then what specifically causes ligament laxity in pregnant women? ...and if this is what happens with nandrolone use, it would be a hinderance to heavy weight training, am I missing something here?