Developing gynecomastia breasts, help!

[RonXmma]

I just don't get how people make threats and don't provide basic information.
Shit not even replay to their own threath.

We only know he is on his 3rd week of teste e ?? Okay so?
I'm pretty sure this is his firsth cycle.
How about dose?
Any ai? I don't think so .

I started my Testo E cycle on July 12th. And I got AI/SERMS Nolva and Adex. Sorry for late reply, I was being paranoid and I had symptoms such as puffy/bloated nipples so I was being worried. And Yes this is my first cycle, I just dont want to develop "bitch tits".

 

[Maktub]

So how are you? better now ?
I don't think that in the firsth 3-4 weeks you can get gyno . Not at your dose .
Unless you are a special case

 

[Dr JIM]

So how are you? better now ?
I don't think that in the firsth 3-4 weeks you can get gyno . Not at your dose .
Unless you are a special case

That's a reasonably accurate statement bc much like building muscle with AAS it takes time for the HYPERTROPHIC changes of GCM to occur.

However what can and DOES happen, those with UNKNOWN pre-existing GCM can develop swelling of the involved nodular area which results in PAIN. (usually a sort of dull ache).

So the focal swelling distends the "capsule" and causes pain an NOW we have someone who is "worried" about GCM with the net effect being some anxious noob guy checking out and squeezing the crap out of their tits and using a macro lens to inspect for nipple "swelling", etc!

Of course the consequence of the latter is often GROSS exaggerations of the underlying problem, ESPECIALLY in NOOBS.

This is just another reason why this guy should not be cycling AAS, but "he's fine thanks"!

 

[Do3Gs]

Shoot me a msg if you want to discuss further. I assure you I am not what you think I am in terms of knowledge.

Oh and I don't debate issues of this magnitude by PM, bc other members need to KNOW what is evidence based vs bro-science.

In addition MESO is an OPEN FORUM fella!

I personally think if this discussion was going to continue it would be beneficial for the Meso community out in the open.

This is part of what sets Meso apart, open discussion heated or not without worry of mods stepping in and shutting it down.

I've seen numerous occasions of people telling others to start AI right away. Yet we have a medical doctor that has been around for quite some time stating otherwise. Definitely a beneficial debate when backed up with facts.

 

[Schredder]

I personally think if this discussion was going to continue it would be beneficial for the Meso community out in the open.

This is part of what sets Meso apart, open discussion heated or not without worry of mods stepping in and shutting it down.

I've seen numerous occasions of people telling others to start AI right away. Yet we have a medical doctor that has been around for quite some time stating otherwise. Definitely a beneficial debate when backed up with facts.

Ive replied to his apparent 'facts' and have yet to see a reply back. Not surprised either.

 

[Do3Gs]

Ive replied to his apparent 'facts' and have yet to see a reply back. Not surprised either.

I think that may have something to do with your posts and quotes being messed up and mixed together, not sure tho. Definitely interested as I just had a short conversation with @Dr JIM recently about this exact topic. I appreciate him taking the time to explain some things to me as I'm very new to AAS. I'm also sure he's tired of having to repeat a lot of this info redundantly as he's probably had to do MANY times throughout his years.

 

[Dr JIM]

There is NO basis (excepting theoretic) for the prophylactic use of an AI at the onset of a cycle, excluding a couple provisos, and for those who believe otherwise, provide answers to the following;

1) What dose should be used
2) What E-2 level are we "dialing in"
3) Are labs even relevant, E-2 in particular
4) How would the AAS dosage effect AI therapy
5) How does the inclusion of aromatizable effect the dose
6) How may the exclusion of aromatizable AAS alter the dose used
7) What Ai should be used, Etc, etc, etc

These are all question that should be addressed for any condition, especially when treating the PATIENTS signs and/or symptoms are shown to be a more reelable indicator of underlying disease.

It's NOT done this way on PED forums bc treating "a number" simplifies therapy for those who want to run AAS yet not have to KNOW WTF they are doing!

To that end I pride myself by attempting to treat an AAS related condition or complication just like i would any other ailment, BASED ON THE EVIDENCE, and that includes a patients signs and symptoms, whenever possible, in addition to supportive lab testing!

As for the "other way"? It's called "bro-science" and if thats what some prefer so be it, but at least Meso members now know the evidence based alternative IMO

 

[Schredder]

Lol

 

[Dr JIM]

Lol

Classic response from a "bro-scientist", and of course that's to be expected bc what "bro" suggested earlier is wo basis in the absence of signs or symptoms.

Instead chicken little would rather have those whom are less informed chase some silly E-2 level. Yea right I've heard it all before, but I've a better evidence based idea, treat the signs and symptoms and use one's E-2 level as an aid to therapy should questions remain, ah DUH!

LMAO!

 

[Dr JIM]

I think that may have something to do with your posts and quotes being messed up and mixed together, not sure tho. Definitely interested as I just had a short conversation with @Dr JIM recently about this exact topic. I appreciate him taking the time to explain some things to me as I'm very new to AAS. I'm also sure he's tired of having to repeat a lot of this info redundantly as he's probably had to do MANY times throughout his years.

No problem bc in many respects my primary motivation for remaining on Meso is the gratification that comes from watching others LEARN (not to be confused with spoon feeding) and grow intellectually, especially about the PHYSIOLOGIC and PHARMACOLOGIC aspect of PEDs.

To that end it's somewhat disappointing to know the majority are here to be spoon fed info on CYCLING or the use of PEDs, and that's a shame bc the opportunity to learn for the sake of learning itself, is simply awe inspiring, based on the research @Michael Scally MD has posted alone, IMO!

 

[Schredder]

There is NO basis (excepting theoretic) for the prophylactic use of an AI at the onset of a cycle, excluding a couple provisos, and for those who believe otherwise, provide answers to the following;

1) What dose should be used
2) What E-2 level are we "dialing in"
3) Are labs even relevant, E-2 in particular
4) How would the AAS dosage effect AI therapy
5) How does the inclusion of aromatizable effect the dose
6) How may the exclusion of aromatizable AAS alter the dose used
7) What Ai should be used, Etc, etc, etc

These are all question that should be addressed for any condition, especially when treating the PATIENTS signs and/or symptoms are shown to be a more reelable indicator of underlying disease.

It's NOT done this way on PED forums bc treating "a number" simplifies therapy for those who want to run AAS yet not have to KNOW WTF they are doing!

To that end I pride myself by attempting to treat an AAS related condition or complication just like i would any other ailment, BASED ON THE EVIDENCE, and that includes a patients signs and symptoms, whenever possible, in addition to supportive lab testing!

As for the "other way"? It's called "bro-science" and if thats what some prefer so be it, but at least Meso members now know the evidence based alternative IMO

1) What is the perfect dose to take? At this point we cant say for certain but if we're talking about how its done on PED forums then there are 1000s of different scans of blood work and we could most like find a suitable dose for this stage in the cycle. Or if one has been doing this for some time he will most like have done enough blood work to know what a good starting point is.
2) At the begining of the cycle we are 'dailing in' anything. We are preventing e2 from getting out of control. And you being an MD should know that is unhealthy regardless of T:E ratio and can cause the user unwanted side effects such as what I mentioned earlier--water retention(in turn elevated BP), enlargement of prostate, ED, changes in mood and sence of well being, lethargy and gynocomastia (which I assume is what you mean by GCM although a google search turned up nothing). Also if we take a 12 or even 20 week cycle there isnt going to be any 'dialing in' or any sort done. That is much to short of a period to even be able to dial something in and have the user at optimal levels plus he is coming off so nothing needs to be dialed in. A guy on long term TRT on the other hand--much more time to dial things and a need for things to be dialed in. And by you saying dialed in I know you know that high e2 levels do matter because if they didnt you would not have made mention to that.
3) Not exactly sure what this question is getting at. Are labs relevant to what? Are pre cycle e2 reading relevant? I wouldnt say they would be something to take notes in ink on as we havent started any exogenous aromatizeable hormones yet. Mid cycle e2 readings are a different story. They do matter and one will use this info to either raise, lower or keep the AI dose the same based on the results.
4) Raised or started
5) Lowered or not started
7) Doesnt really matter. They all do esentially the same thing aside from certain ones being suicidal and certain ones not.

How are all these questions the ones that should be answered for any condition one might have? I dont understand that statement. Surely those dont provide the answers and solutions to every underlying disease.

 

[RonXmma]

Thanks for your concerns guys, I am feeling a bit tenderness in the nipples, but it's only in the morning when I wake up and at some point after a gym workout..

But I think since its my first cycle, I am being a bit paranoid over gyno ( Who wouldn't be).

If gyno starts to develop slowly how are we even able to draw the conclusion that it really is gyno?? See my point..

 

[bigpapabuff]

Thanks for your concerns guys, I am feeling a bit tenderness in the nipples, but it's only in the morning when I wake up and at some point after a gym workout..

But I think since its my first cycle, I am being a bit paranoid over gyno ( Who wouldn't be).

If gyno starts to develop slowly how are we even able to draw the conclusion that it really is gyno?? See my point..

The fact is gyno really isn't the greatest danger of elevated estrogen anyway, it is just a late stage sign that estrogen is out of control and needs to be managed. "Managing" estrogen for me is keeping it as close to normal even though i am taking AAS. I think it is very prudent to adapt such an approach, using blood work as your guide of course. The dangers of elevated estrogen in males shouldn't even need be gone over at this stage. They should be so well known and obvious estrogen management while on cycle should be a given, sadly it is not. Get blood work, manage estrogen with an ai, gyno or not it is what is best from an overall health and well being standpoint.

 

[ronin17]

So when should someone start thier adex? Is it better to be safe than sorry and start immediatly with cycle or wait till symptoms occur? Obviously the answer is bloodwork. Bloodwork starts fifth or sixth week of cycle. My friend has always taken adex with first pin of a heavy cycle.

 

[ronin17]

I'm wondering if he's been taking unnecessary doses of adex in the first few weeks of his heavy cycles? on the other hand isn't that the safest route? I mean we all know what the alternative to that is.

 

[Roger rabbit]

I'm with @drjim on this one. I've done plenty in my life and people take these drugs that make them "bloated" or "wet" and use the ai to decrease this. Here is thing, that is part of the cycle if that's what you choose.

A little higher level of estrogen is actually what body builders want, helps build muscle contrary to most beliefs.

I don't take any ai unless I need to, plus some of the ai raise the cholesterol levels even further, and we know several types of steroids drive those numbers up. ( the good down and bad up) why add something that you don't need that can possibly heighten to the dangers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Maktub]

So when should someone start thier adex? Is it better to be safe than sorry and start immediatly with cycle or wait till symptoms occur? Obviously the answer is bloodwork. Bloodwork starts fifth or sixth week of cycle. My friend has always taken adex with first pin of a heavy cycle.

i Will say "yes" wait until week 5 until bloods . so you can check what estro number you got.

Personally a test cycle of
at 400-600 mg x week I don't get sides effects at all ;so far
I'm in week 10 at 550mg teste e
No adex at all. No gyno no bloating . No sides . Feeling great.

I will say take adex until you need it .
You need estro little bit high in order to keep up with the high T number .
Estro high enough to compensate the high ratio on testosterona ;
but not that high or low that wold fuck you up.
That's why bloods is a must to see at what number you are and how are you reacting to that .

I hope I was clear .

 

[ronin17]

i Will say "yes" wait until week 5 until bloods . so you can check what estro number you got.

Personally a test cycle of
at 400-600 mg x week I don't get sides effects at all ;so far
I'm in week 10 at 550mg teste e
No adex at all. No gyno no bloating . No sides . Feeling great.

I will say take adex until you need it .
You need estro little bit high in order to keep up with the high T number .
Estro high enough to compensate the high ratio on testosterona ;
but not that high or low that wold fuck you up.
That's why bloods is a must to see at what number you are and how are you reacting to that .

I hope I was clear .

You were. Time for my friend to reevaluate procedures.

 

[ronin17]

I'm with @drjim on this one. I've done plenty in my life and people take these drugs that make them "bloated" or "wet" and use the ai to decrease this. Here is thing, that is part of the cycle if that's what you choose.

A little higher level of estrogen is actually what body builders want, helps build muscle contrary to most beliefs.

I don't take any ai unless I need to, plus some of the ai raise the cholesterol levels even further, and we know several types of steroids drive those numbers up. ( the good down and bad up) why add something that you don't need that can possibly heighten to the dangers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for your perspective.