Dhea

[SinginHawk]

In the Hormone Modulation article, one of the causes of low T is low DHEA. I never see anyone stating that they take DHEA to help increase T.

Why is that?

 

[SPE]

I take DHEA

I take it, but not to raise T. In men, DHEA really won't raise T, rather E2. It does have it's benefits though such as cortisol reduction and an overall feelin of well being.

 

[SinginHawk]

It is my understanding that DHEA is a prohormone for T and E. So why won't it raise T. Do you have any articles that state your position?

 

[SPE]

Articles...

There are plenty on pubmed, just do a search. It's been found that dhea really only converts to t in females.

 

[SinginHawk]

I have plent of articles and all say that DHEA converts to T and E. That is why they sometimes say to take KETO DHEA which doesn't convert.

Did you ever read Hormone Modulation from Life Extension. They say one of the cause of low T is low DHEA. I was asking if you had any articles to back YOUR statement.

Any other opinions

 

[stat1951]

Yes, I believe that the adrenal glands will produce DHEA of which a very small fraction converts to testosterone in a male. A male's primary producer of testosterone (99%???) occurs in the testicles. And as far as I know DHEA is not involved in the HPT Axis that controls the production of natural T.

Life Extension has a DHEA Replacement Protocol but that is simply for re-establishing positive levels of DHEA (which is also an important hormone of its own right).

See: http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-041.shtml

While the Life Ext protocol on Male Hormone Modulation makes reference a couple times to "DHEA being a precursor to testosterone and estrogen", it is simply referring to the very small amounts converted by the adrenal glands via DHEA. Women do not get the vast majority of their estrogens from DHEA nor do men obtain significant amounts (barely any) of testosterone through this mechanism.

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcls-txt/t-prtcl-130.html

That said, there's probably a good arguement for having DHEA levels in an "optimum range" (just as one would want their testoserone levels or estrogen levels or melatonin levels at an optimum range).

Additionally, there is one study reported in the J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1999 Jun;84(6):2170-6 that show a strong caution to exercise in taking DHEA:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10372727&dopt=Abstract

QUOTE:
The most abundant human steroids, dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and its sulfate ester DHEAS, may have a multitude of beneficial effects, but decline with age. DHEA possibly prevents immunosenescence, and as a neuroactive steroid it may influence processes of cognition and memory. Epidemiological studies revealed an inverse correlation between DHEAS levels and the incidence of cardiovascular disease in men, but not in women... The intake of 50 mg DHEA led to an increase in serum DHEAS to mean levels of young adult men, whereas 100 mg DHEA induced supraphysiological concentrations... Serum testosterone and dihydrotestosterone remained unchanged after DHEA administration. In contrast, 17beta-estradiol and estrone significantly increased in a dose-dependent manner...
END QUOTE

Note specifically that "serum testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) remained unchanged after DHEA administration... "

These were high doses and in elderly males (with presumably lower levels of serum T) and yet "serum T remained unchanged"....

Larry

I have plent of articles and all say that DHEA converts to T and E. That is why they sometimes say to take KETO DHEA which doesn't convert.

Did you ever read Hormone Modulation from Life Extension. They say one of the cause of low T is low DHEA. I was asking if you had any articles to back YOUR statement.

Any other opinions

 

[SPE]

Here is another one for ya singin. SWALE has said it many times, DHEA just doesn't get converted to T in men to any significant degree. Check out the metabolic pathways chart for it. If you would have done your OWN research on pubmed like I suggested, you would have found studies like the one below.

Effects of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) supplementation on hormonal, metabolic and behavioral status in patients with hypoadrenalism.

Libe R, Barbetta L, Dall'Asta C, Salvaggio F, Gala C, Beck-Peccoz P, Ambrosi B.

Institute of Endocrine Science, University of Milan, Ospedale Maggiore IRCCS, Milan, Italy.

Oral DHEA administration to patients with hypoadrenalism, in addition to glucocorticoid and mineralcorticoid replacement, may improve both well-being and hormonal/metabolic parameters. Twenty patients (13 men, 7 women, 26-76 yr, 11 with Addison's disease, 9 with central hypoadrenalism) were recruited in a placebo-controlled, randomized study. Hormone levels, carbohydrate and lipid parameters, bone metabolism, body composition and psychological parameters were evaluated at baseline and after treatment with DHEA 50 mg/day or placebo for 4 months. After 4 months of DHEA administration, serum DHEAS levels raised both in men (from 0.71+/-0.18 to 8.28+/-1.66 micropmol/l, p<0.005) and in women (from 0.25+/-0.07 to 5.65+/-1.93 micromol/l, p<0.05). Only in hypoadrenal women an increase in testosterone (T; from 0.4+/-0.1 to 1.45+/-0.26 nmol/l, p<0.05) and androstenedione (A; from 0.86+/-0.34 to 2.05+/-0.29 nmol/l, p<0.05) levels was observed. In men no significant modifications in T and 17-hydroxyprogesterone (17-OHP) levels were found, whereas serum SHBG significantly decreased. As far as the metabolic parameters are concerned, only in patients with Addison's disease a significant decrease in total cholesterol and in low-density lipoproteins after 4 months of DHEA administration was found. No changes in glucose metabolism and insulin sensitivity were observed. In basal conditions, mean serum osteocalcin (OC) was normal and significantly decreased after DHEA treatment. A significant reduction in body fat mass percentage (BF%) after DHEA administration was observed. As far as well-being is concerned, DHEA replacement did not cause any relevant variation of subjective health scales and sexuality in both sexes. Our study confirms that DHEA may be beneficial for female patients with hypoadrenalism, mainly in restoring androgen levels. Concerning the health status, more sensitive and specific instruments to measure the effects of DHEA treatment could be necessary.

 

[stat1951]

SPE...

You have the date of that study by any chance?

Thanks.

Larry

 

[SPE]

Sure...

1: J Endocrinol Invest. 2004 Sep;27(8):736-41.

 

[SinginHawk]

OK, good. I am not going to take any, especially if it gets converted to Estrogin. Thanks

 

[greatgro]

OK, good. I am not going to take any, especially if it gets converted to Estrogin. Thanks

Well it doesn't mean it will. If you tend to have higher estrogen levels, I think DHEA may aggravate the problem. If your estrogens are well controlled, DHEA may not cause any problems at all. You really need testing to be sure. I am on TRT AND take 50mg daily of DHEA and my estrogens are not a problem at all.

 

[stat1951]

That's true. It won't necessarily raise estrogen levels to supraphysiological ranges. What the study found was that DHEA did not increase serum DHT and serum testosterone in those particular patients and tended to increase estradiol and estrone... but not necessarily to above normal ranges.

As a significant number of males on TRT strive to maintain estrogens (and specifically estradiol) not only in "normal ranges" but specifically in "optimal ranges", this would be a supplement that they would want to be conscious of all of its possible effects.

DHEA is itself a very necessary hormone (above and beyond what aspects of it may convert to other hormones) and a deficiency is likely not a good position. I am aware of a number of "life extension" type doctors who prescribe it for males in doses in the 5 mg - 25 mg range if the males have tested low normal or below normal for DHEA - I assume to gain benefit from gradually raising the DHEA levels while minimizing the possibility of excessively elevating estrogen conversions. If you note, the study indicated that "estradiol and estrone significantly increased in a dose-dependent manner", so I would imagine that is the rationale for the lower dosage recommendations.

I still believe the jury is out on the 7-KETO version of DHEA (as to whether it provides the benefits of raising DHEA while eliminating the androgen conversion element).

I am trying to get my doctor to test not only for E2 (a no-brainer you would think) but all three estrogens. Do you (Greatgro) get your full range of estrogens tested or just the E2?

Thanks.

Larry