DHT as an anti Estrogen

[1cc]

Anti-Estrogen Effects Of DHT

One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take Proscar learn this the hard wayby developing a case of gynecomastia. By reducing DHT's protection against estrogen in the body, these men have fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification-bitch tits.

How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.

Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus/pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogens). This property of DHT comes into particular utility when it is administered exogenously, and this is to be discussed in further detail in the next section.


Web link: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/reform8.htm

Does anyone have any more information about this?

 

[SPE]

So...

To kinda go along with this, if DHT is elevated more so on Androgel than on Test injections, why is E2 also higher? I'd think the DHT would lower it?

 

[pmgamer18]

I had very high DHT levels and high E2 levels to anser this it is all about what your taking for TRT and how much. I was doing 10 grams of Testim and getting a 200 mg. Depo T shot evey other week. To much T means to high an E2 level.
Phil

 

[1cc]

swale,

Have you ever used DHT as an anti-estrogen or have you ever thought of using it in this way.

 

[SWALE]

Transdermals can elevate estrogens through direct conversion within the tissue underneath the application site.

IMPO, DHT has no place in TRT medicine.

 

[DavidZ]

IMPO, DHT has no place in TRT medicine.

Why not?

 

[HeadDoc]

BPH and hair loss in males who have virilized during adolesence. This not to say that DHT alone has not been used for trt. It's the risk of the former that would be most problematic. Futher, I don't think that there is any research to indicate that DHT alone produces the range of health benefits that testosterone replacement accomplishes, even with the increase in DHT that trt will bring with it.

 

[SWALE]

Right. Plus it induces the formation of intra-abdominal fat--increasing the risk of cardiovascular disease.

DHT also short-circuits the feedback mechanisms I rely upon to induce the most natural relationship between hormones possible under TRT.

 

[DavidZ]

BPH and hair loss in males who have virilized during adolesence. This not to say that DHT alone has not been used for trt. It's the risk of the former that would be most problematic. Futher, I don't think that there is any research to indicate that DHT alone produces the range of health benefits that testosterone replacement accomplishes, even with the increase in DHT that trt will bring with it.

I agree that DHT alone is not an appropriate form of TRT. But that wasn't the question.

The original contention was that "DHT has no place in TRT medicine." That was the premise I questioned.

Further, although the predominant view about benign prostatic hyperplasia or BPH is that it is due to a buildup of DHT, this hypothesis is far from proven. Much of what I've read (and experienced) indicates that elevated E2 and decreased T/E2 ratio (rather than elevated DHT) cause BPH and perhaps even prostate cancer.

 

[SWALE]

Yes, DHT and BPH are only loosely associaed. Fir if you have BPH, and I give ypou DHT, your prostate gets better, not worse. Estrogen is the true culprit in prostate morbidity.

I'm not going to delve into semantics. Were DHT of any use in TRT, I would be prescribing it.

 

[DavidZ]

Yes, DHT and BPH are only loosely associaed. Fir if you have BPH, and I give you DHT, your prostate gets better, not worse. Estrogen is the true culprit in prostate morbidity.

Agreed.

IMPO, DHT has no place in TRT medicine.

You may recall that my regimen for the last 4 years or so has been about 400 to 450 IU of HCG per week plus about one-third of an Indolplex tablet per day. This regimen has consitently put my T about 700 (260-1000), my E2 about 35 (<50) and my DHT about 35 (25-75).

About 2 months ago, I added a very low dosage of DHT cream to my regimen. This small amount of DHT cream increased my DHT to about 45 (25-75).

This small change has been a great improvement in many ways. I don't see how any doctor who believes in HRT could say that increasing DHT from low-normal to an amount below the midpoint of the normal range is "inappropriate." DHT cream definitely has a place in my HRT regimen. Perhaps, I'm an exception to your rule.

(DHT) induces the formation of intra-abdominal fat--increasing the risk of cardiovascular disease.

I'm on a very strict diet and exercise regimen. I weigh myself every morning. I've lost 3 pounds since starting DHT (from 143 to 140 lbs.).

Also, I exercise with a polar heart monitor. Since starting DHT my heart rate doesn't go as high as before. My aerobic regimen has been the same for about 3 years.

 

[SWALE]

You keep returning to this same point, and I keep answering it the same way. This will be the last time to kick this dead horse.

The appropriate way to elevate DHT is by the inclusion of a transdermal T cream or gel. You are living proof of what I say when I tell guys that HCG on its own will not bring the subjective benefits of TRT. BTW, there are many in my field who would disagree with me. They may practice as they wish.

You do not know how much intra-abdominal fat you are accumulating. Your total weight has nothing to do with it. I remember a specimen (I prefer to say "the donation" of a gentleman who wanted to serve medicine) in the cadaver lab during medical school who was so ripped his abs had veins. But his abdominal cavity was just packed with fat. BTW, he died of a heart attack. I shall never forget that experience, as I had my hands in his belly.

 

[DavidZ]

You keep returning to this same point, and I keep answering it the same way.

With all due repesct, I'm not satisfied with your answers.

While I consider you to be one of the 2 best TRT doctors that I know of, I don't consider the opinion of any doctor as sacrosanct, even such a great doctor as you.

You do not know how much intra-abdominal fat you are accumulating.

That makes 2 of us.

I remember a specimen (I prefer to say "the donation" of a gentleman who wanted to serve medicine) in the cadaver lab during medical school who was so ripped his abs had veins. But his abdominal cavity was just packed with fat. BTW, he died of a heart attack. I shall never forget that experience, as I had my hands in his belly.

What does this anecdote have to do with me? Or my regimen of an extremely low dosage of DHT cream?

The appropriate way to elevate DHT is by the inclusion of a transdermal T cream or gel. You are living proof of what I say when I tell guys that HCG on its own will not bring the subjective benefits of TRT.

Again, with all due respect, I find your answers to be nonresponsive. I have repeatedly asked the following questions.

(1) If HCG adds an "increased sense of well-being and libido," then why would men on TRT only feel better than men on HCG only as you claim from your clinical experience? Shouldnt it be the other way around? You have yet to supply any satisfactory explanation for this claimed subjective outcome, which is the basis for your protocols.

(2) How can raising DHT from low-normal to just below the midpoint of the normal range via transdermal supplementation be inappropriate? And isn't it virtually impossible for such supplementation to result in the negative effects you cite?

 

[cpeil2]

Again, with all due respect, I find your answers to be nonresponsive. I have repeatedly asked the following questions.

And he has repeately declined to answer. Can't you just give it up on this one David?

 

[SWALE]

DavidZ--You go right ahead and conduct your TRT as want. I am giving free advice on how I administer TRT, and you may pick and choose from it as you please. I am not editing your posts to prevent you from expressing yourself.

In fact, I have provided what amounts to the answers to both of your questions here repeatedly. Do some research into previous posts.

The phrase "claimed outcomes" is probably a bit more confrontational than I prefer. Besides, my professional opinions are soley based upon the reports of both my patients and the literally thousands of men I have interacted with on the Boards. I have not simply made up stuff to try to make myself sound smart.

Finally, "greatness" is something which takes takes a lifetime's work to accomplish. I am but a blue collar kind of doc who rolls up his sleaves, scratches his head, and tries to figure out what the real deal is.

You are a valuable, and valued, good member of this Board. Thank you for your input. We look forward to your continued participation.

 

[DavidZ]

Fair enough. Let's move on...