DNP Question (not working)

[cjayl]

I'm on my second DNP cycle and, I'm not losing weight.

For my first cycle I followed the 8 day regime that I've read about on a few forums. 200mg for four days then 400mg for the final four. Sensible balanced diet with a little cardio and moderate workouts. I lost 7 lbs by the 8th day and didn't lose any more weight after day 8.

I'm now on my 12th day of my second cycle and, I've been on 600mg for 6 days. I'd lost 4lbs by day 6 but, now it's been a week and I haven't lost a pound. I'm watching my diet. It's balanced and I'm not over eating.
I am sweating like crazy. Even while sitting (last night my AC was set to 62F with a big fan aimed at my head and I soaked the sheets with sweat).

And, I play tennis several times a week. I've noticed that some guys advise not to do cardio. Is that because of the threat of overheating? It seems that cardio would be good at helping the body use up the ATP. (assuming of course that you don't overheat or dehydrate, which I don't) thereby ultimately burning more fat.
I've read about needing carbs to help the ATP process. And I've also read about the need for pyruvate to help the citric acid/CREB process. Some guys have said that they eat candy to help the process to burn fat others, deplete their glycogen before the cycle and carbs moderate during cycle.
I've also read that T3 production may go down and would harm the fat burning process while others have said T3 is not crucial to the fat burning. Or, that t3 production may not be affected if fructose is consumed. (to help glycogen in liver) (I started eating 300 cals of pineapple today, hope it helps)

Some help in finding out what I could be doing wrong would help. It sucks to go through the torture of the cycle and not lose any fat. :-(

I suspected that I might get good water loss after the cycle. But, I didn't lose any weight after my first cycle. So, I'm not very convinced about it being that. Plus, after two weeks on a cycle like this I wouldn't think I'd lose that much water weight (8-14 lbs) after getting off the stuff. Also others are dropping a lot of weight while on it.
Some guys are reporting from 1/2 to (the rare) 1lb a day. I'd think I'd show some of it after a week on 600mg. That's why I'm thinking that I must be doing something wrong.
I figure it might be diet. I'm eating well. Brown rice veggies lean protein. whole wheat PBJ's, good cereal, skim milk. eggs and potato's etc. etc.
But, I'm not counting calories. I figure I'm eating about 3k-3.5k calories a day but, I could be off.
I haven't read very much, that has been very specific about diet and dnp. Most have said eat carbs (55%) but, no real strict calorie requirements (except one post that said that one should keep the diet at a maintenance level). To further my confusion I'm being more strict with my diet being clean and, not succumbing to the carb cravings that you get (i.e muffins and white flour) than I was the first time but, as I've said, I've been stuck at 198 for a week. :-(
I've also read conflicting stuff like, that you should eat a ton of carbs or, that I can eat chinese, candy and, other calorie laden foods and still lose weight.

Any useful advice from the likes of Conciliator and other experienced DNP'ers would be great.

Thanks

Very Confused Boy

 

[KBD]

DNP is so stupid IMO, your better off eating lawn pesticide lol.

 

[OatsNhoes]

DNP is so stupid IMO, your better off eating lawn pesticide lol.

the difference between DNP and lawn pesticide is one increases your BMR by 20-60% and one doesnt

 

[Jeet Kune Do]

I already answered you in the other thread. If so desired I can copy and paste, but the answers I provided are accurate. Either the DNP is not accurately dosed or you are not counting calories correctly, which as you are not counting, that should be obvious.

 

[Lizard King]

Why are you eating 3K - 3.5K calories if you are trying to lose weight?

 

[Jeet Kune Do]

Why are you eating 3K - 3.5K calories if you are trying to lose weight?

Because DNP is a miracle pill and a few boards advertise its use as such. Sarcasm aside, that is the mentality many have and many online communities push.

 

[KBD]

Because DNP is a miracle pill and a few boards advertise its use as such. Sarcasm aside, that is the mentality many have and many online communities push.

Theres no such thing.

 

[Jeet Kune Do]

Theres no such thing.

I was being sarcastic.

 

[Lizard King]

I was being sarcastic.

He doesn't understand what that means, LOL

 

[Conciliator]

Either the DNP is not accurately dosed or you are not counting calories correctly, which as you are not counting, that should be obvious.

This is a false dichotomy. A distinct third possibility is that he is creating a caloric deficit and he is losing body fat, but the loss is being masked by water retention. This is a very, very common occurrence on DNP. The OP said he didn't notice any water retention on his first cycle, but conditions are not always the same, e.g. he's on a higher dose of DNP this cycle, which would make water retention more likely.

I agree that 3k to 3.5k Cal/day sounds a little high for him for a cutting diet. At approx 200 lbs, his maintenance intake should be around 3000. If I were him, I'd shoot for 2500 Cal/day. Still, assuming his DNP is not seriously underdosed, I think it's more likely than not that he is creating a caloric deficit and he his losing body fat. If it''s not showing up, that's because it often doesn't show up during the cycle... just give it time.

As for "needing" pyruvate or fruit or lots of carbs to make the DNP work... you don't.

 

[OhNoYo]

This is a false dichotomy. A distinct third possibility is that he is creating a caloric deficit and he is losing body fat, but the loss is being masked by water retention. This is a very, very common occurrence on DNP. The OP said he didn't notice any water retention on his first cycle, but conditions are not always the same, e.g. he's on a higher dose of DNP this cycle, which would make water retention more likely.

I agree that 3k to 3.5k Cal/day sounds a little high for him for a cutting diet. At approx 200 lbs, his maintenance intake should be around 3000. If I were him, I'd shoot for 2500 Cal/day. Still, assuming his DNP is not seriously underdosed, I think it's more likely than not that he is creating a caloric deficit and he his losing body fat. If it''s not showing up, that's because it often doesn't show up during the cycle... just give it time.

As for "needing" pyruvate or fruit or lots of carbs to make the DNP work... you don't.

Con, 2 things I have in bold I'd like to comment on. The first is the body holding water during DNP cycling. There is much anecdotal evidence to confirm this to occur at different times to different ppl, so in essence yes it happens. My question to you would be that would you feel for someone who is going to cycle DNP (which I actually condemn anyway but that's besides the point) to measure water in/water out for the a week (or to AT LEAST minimum few days) BEFORE taking DNP to the end of their DNP cycle? Also, for the individual who is willing to do this, they should understand that they lose some water via breathing, perspiration, feces excretion, etc. so if they want an extremely accurate number, then this needs to be put into consideration too. The reason I ask this is b/c ppl who do decide to use DNP might not get frustrated mid-cycle, thinking they have lost no fat mass.

Also, in regards to the pyruvate deal, are ppl confusing glycolysis, Krebs Cycle, and oxidative phosphorylation with 1 another and thinking that pyruvate is some kind of intermediary you need for DNP to work, which really doesn't make sense as DNP is an oxidative phosphorylative uncoupler which makes you "lose" your energy/heat, and not use it up. I'm confused here, so you tell me...

 

[Conciliator]

Con, 2 things I have in bold I'd like to comment on. The first is the body holding water during DNP cycling. There is much anecdotal evidence to confirm this to occur at different times to different ppl, so in essence yes it happens.

In addition to anecdote there are clear statements about water retention in the original clinical research on DNP. I can post an excerpt from Simkins' research (the largest study ever performed on DNP in humans) if you're interested.

My question to you would be that would you feel for someone who is going to cycle DNP (which I actually condemn anyway but that's besides the point) to measure water in/water out for the a week (or to AT LEAST minimum few days) BEFORE taking DNP to the end of their DNP cycle?

I think that the best estimate one could make for water balance would be terribly inaccurate. First, it would be excessively tedious to try to quantify the amount of water in one's food, to add to the liquid intake. Second, I think there would be significant losses through perspiration and respiration, which tend to increase greatly on DNP. I think the best estimate would still be a very rough estimate. And even if you could make a reasonably accurate estimate, I don't think it justifies all the time it would take, considering that the overall weight loss will be made apparent a few days after the DNP is discontinued. Just stick to an intelligent plan (dose, diet, duration, etc) and have a little patience until you see the final results when the cycle is over.

The reason I ask this is b/c ppl who do decide to use DNP might not get frustrated mid-cycle, thinking they have lost no fat mass.

I think the best way for people not to be frustrated mid-cycle is to have it told to them beforehand, over and over, that water retention is the norm and that the scale weight during a cycle is nearly meaningless. Sure, a drop in scale weight is often seen, especially with longer cycles, but in general, people need to know that they should EXPECT to have to wait until the cycle is over to know the true weight loss. A stalled weight is not a "problem", but the norm. IMO, questions and posts starting with "Why has my weight loss stalled on my DNP cycle..." can easily be responded with "You need to do your research. Water retention is extremely common. Put your scale away until after the cycle is over, as it can and will mislead you and give you unnecessary anxiety."

Also, in regards to the pyruvate deal, are ppl confusing glycolysis, Krebs Cycle, and oxidative phosphorylation with 1 another and thinking that pyruvate is some kind of intermediary you need for DNP to work, which really doesn't make sense as DNP is an oxidative phosphorylative uncoupler which makes you "lose" your energy/heat, and not use it up. I'm confused here, so you tell me...

I don't recall what particular arguments people have given for why pyruvate is a "requirement." It should go without saying, but hundreds of thousands of people lost weight on DNP in the 1930's while taking NO support supplements, because they didn't exist.

 

[OhNoYo]

In addition to anecdote there are clear statements about water retention in the original clinical research on DNP. I can post an excerpt from Simkins' research (the largest study ever performed on DNP in humans) if you're interested.
I think that the best estimate one could make for water balance would be terribly inaccurate. First, it would be excessively tedious to try to quantify the amount of water in one's food, to add to the liquid intake. Second, I think there would be significant losses through perspiration and respiration, which tend to increase greatly on DNP. I think the best estimate would still be a very rough estimate. And even if you could make a reasonably accurate estimate, I don't think it justifies all the time it would take, considering that the overall weight loss will be made apparent a few days after the DNP is discontinued. Just stick to an intelligent plan (dose, diet, duration, etc) and have a little patience until you see the final results when the cycle is over.
I think the best way for people not to be frustrated mid-cycle is to have it told to them beforehand, over and over, that water retention is the norm and that the scale weight during a cycle is nearly meaningless. Sure, a drop in scale weight is often seen, especially with longer cycles, but in general, people need to know that they should EXPECT to have to wait until the cycle is over to know the true weight loss. A stalled weight is not a "problem", but the norm. IMO, questions and posts starting with "Why has my weight loss stalled on my DNP cycle..." can easily be responded with "You need to do your research. Water retention is extremely common. Put your scale away until after the cycle is over, as it can and will mislead you and give you unnecessary anxiety."
I don't recall what particular arguments people have given for why pyruvate is a "requirement." It should go without saying, but hundreds of thousands of people lost weight on DNP in the 1930's while taking NO support supplements, because they didn't exist.

Excellent post & that would be great if you could find that, Sir!

 

[Conciliator]

Excellent post & that would be great if you could find that, Sir!

Excerpt from Simkins, S. Dinitrophenol and desiccated thyroid in the treatment of obesity: a comprehensive clinical and laboratory study. J Am Med Assoc 1937; 108: 2110–2118.

Tolerance to the drug is established rapidly, so that to produce a consistent loss of weight the dosage must gradually be raised. On the other hand, the acquired tolerance is rapidly lost if the drug is discontinued for as short a period as two weeks. The dinitrophenol may then be resumed at a lower dosage level with its original effect on the patient. It is remarkable how sensitive many patients are to a slight increase in the dosage. It is not unusual for a patient to cease losing weight suddenly after weeks of steady, satisfactory weight loss. Apparently two factors are chiefly concerned. Concrete examples will suffice:

Factor 1 is rapidly acquired tolerance to the drug. Thus, one patient, on a daily dose of 5 grains (0.32 Gm.), resulting in a metabolic rate of +26 per cent, lost weight at an average rate of 3 pounds (1.4 Kg.) a week for seven weeks. Then, for six weeks, she lost no weight even though the dose was raised to 6 grains (0.4 Gm.) daily. A basal metabolic rate determination at this time was found to be +6 per cent.

Factor 2 is by far the more important one. Apparently dinitrophenol has a tendency to promote storage of water in the body. For example, a patient on a daily average dosage of 454 grains (0.3 Gm.), with a basal metabolic rate of +46 per cent, lost an average of 2 pounds (0.9 Kg.) a week for eight weeks. Then she suddenly stopped losing weight. The dosage was increased to 6 grains (0.4 Gm.) daily for four weeks, with no resultant weight loss. A basal metabolic rate determination at this time was +62 per cent. Presumably, the effect of the heightened metabolism was masked by the accumulation of water in the tissues. In such cases, merely discontinuing the drug temporarily often results in a rapid loss of weight. The drug can then be resumed with its former effectiveness.

 

[OhNoYo]

Excerpt from Simkins, S. Dinitrophenol and desiccated thyroid in the treatment of obesity: a comprehensive clinical and laboratory study. J Am Med Assoc 1937; 108: 2110–2118.

Thank You

 

[bigollie2006]

Yeah man you are fine. Its probably just water weight. I would reduce my calories a bit though. I like to keep my calories down to 2000. I still have enough energy to go through day to day activities and workout moderately. The best thing to do is NOT analyse your body every day and just do before and after pics to really see the progress you made after its done. Its hard to see results on a daily basis, especially when you retain water

 

[dfein]

Why can't you just use a diuretic like lasix to flush the water out. It doesn't seem like a good idea to use DNP if it simply just raises the metabolic rate when other cutting methods actually change substrate and protein metabolism, especially since it's so dangerous. You might as well just not eat food.

 

[Conciliator]

Why can't you just use a diuretic like lasix to flush the water out.

You could use a diuretic. They did that successfully in some of the clinical research on DNP. The problem is that it increases the risk of dehydration and hyperthermia. With moderate to high dose cycles of DNP, I don't think the use of a diuretic is wise.

It doesn't seem like a good idea to use DNP if it simply just raises the metabolic rate when other cutting methods actually change substrate and protein metabolism.

Well there's reason to think that DNP falls into that category, changing substrate oxidation in favor of fat. Several quotes from the clinical research describe a protein sparing effect. Second, even if DNP *just* raises metabolic rate, it can be used along with other drugs to improve partitioning from fat. For example, DNP+clen and DNP+EC both make great stacks.

 

[OhNoYo]

You could use a diuretic. They did that successfully in some of the clinical research on DNP. The problem is that it increases the risk of dehydration and hyperthermia. With moderate to high dose cycles of DNP, I don't think the use of a diuretic is wise.
Well there's reason to think that DNP falls into that category, changing substrate oxidation in favor of fat. Several quotes from the clinical research describe a protein sparing effect. Second, even if DNP *just* raises metabolic rate, it can be used along with other drugs to improve partitioning from fat. For example, DNP+clen and DNP+EC both make great stacks.

Con, I always thought that the principle mechanism of action (MOA) of DNP's metabolic rate is caused the body to "lose" energy/heat instead of using and releasing the energy. This is because DNP is an oxidative phosphorylative uncoupler. So, in other words, your body simply becomes more inefficient as using energy, so you waste tons of energy (Calories) by losing it through your skin, which is the reason why ppl get and feel so hot. This is correct, right? If so, is what your statement above refuting this, or am I reading it wrong, Sir?

 

[Conciliator]

Con, I always thought that the principle mechanism of action (MOA) of DNP's metabolic rate is caused the body to "lose" energy/heat instead of using and releasing the energy. This is because DNP is an oxidative phosphorylative uncoupler. So, in other words, your body simply becomes more inefficient as using energy, so you waste tons of energy (Calories) by losing it through your skin, which is the reason why ppl get and feel so hot. This is correct, right? If so, is what your statement above refuting this, or am I reading it wrong, Sir?

That's right. Your body becomes more inefficient at producing energy (APT) as a consequence of the uncoupling. What did I say that seemed to refute that? That it changes substrate oxidation in favor of fat? That would be a consequence of increasing metabolic rate by means of uncoupling. In his research, Simkins explained that "the respiratory quotient shows a considerable fall during dinitrophenol medication."