Does Arimidex decrease estrone levels?

[SWALE]

I do not understand how Bioavailable T levels could increase when SHBG and albumin remain constant. That makes no sense.

In an intact HPTA, meaning with feedback mechanisms in place, reducing SHBG temporarily frees up more testosterone (as Free and as Bioavailable T). The HP senses the increased levels, and responds by decreasing output of LH, which in turn reduces T production. Therefore, free and Bioavailable levels return to baseline. The result is the same when the SHBG concention increases. Therefore, changes in SHBG may have tremendous impact on TOTAL hormone levels, but not on the effects of those hormones (as Free and Bioavailable concentrations remain stable).

You are comparing to a situation where the entire system is suppressed, as on AAS. There reducing SHBG will cause more androgen to be available at the receptor, as there is no feeback mechanism in place, totally run over by the steroid intake. How much more, and whether this actually has an effect or not, I do not know.

Another point which must be taken into consideration is the differential affinity of SHBG for androgen over estrogen, with a spread of about 8%. Therefore as SHBG levels go up, more AND MORE testosterone and DHT is bound by it, and proportionately more estrogen is left available to do its dirty work. This is part and parcel of what is called "estrogen dominance".

 

[jboldman]

There is something called the human chorionic gonadotropin test wherein the levels of shbg are measured after injection of hcg. It has been used in a variety of differntial diagnostic tests wherein if the levels do not drop, a diagnosis can be made. here is an example:

jb
========================

Pediatr Res. 1997 Feb;41(2):266-71. Related Articles, Links


Biochemical selection of prepubertal patients with androgen insensitivity syndrome by sex hormone-binding globulin response to the human chorionic gonadotropin test.

Bertelloni S, Federico G, Baroncelli GI, Cavallo L, Corsello G, Liotta A, Rigon F, Saggese G.

Department of Pediatrics, University of Pisa, Italy.

Before puberty, the diagnosis of androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) can be difficult. We studied whether the decrease of sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) during the human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) test may represent a biochemical test to select prepubertal patients with AIS. We examined prepubertal patients with AIS (n = 9, age 0.9-8.2 y), male pseudohermaphroditism not due to AIS (other-MPH) (n = 8, age 0.6-10.7 y), and control boys (n = 12, age 0.8-12.5 y). Testosterone and SHBG levels (mean +/- SD) were measured before (d 0) and after (d 5) a hCG test (1500 IU X 3 d). Testosterone levels (nmol/L) increased in all groups [AIS: from 1.5 +/- 1.2 to 22.1 +/- 11.8 (p < 0.001); other-MPH: from 0.6 +/- 0.6 to 9.2 +/- 7.4 (p < 0.02); controls: from 1.8 +/- 1.4 to 22.8 +/- 14.4 (p < 0.001)]. SHBG concentrations (nmol/L) did not change in AIS [from 66.2 +/- 15.1 to 67.5 +/- 18.6 (p = NS), delta-variation 1.7 +/- 12.7%], whereas they were significantly decreased in other-MPH [from 59.9 +/- 14.2 to 46.5 +/- 18.6 (p < 0.005), delta-variation -23.7 +/- 19.6%] and controls [from 63.0 +/- 16.9 to 33.7 +/- 14.6 (p < 0.003), delta-variation -46.9 +/- 15.2%]. Our data suggest that the SHBG changes during the hCG test can be used to assess in vivo the biologic response to androgens in prepubertal patients with ambiguous genitalia, selecting those patients in whom it is worth performing second level investigations to confirm the AIS diagnosis.

I have never read anything with HCG and SHBG in the same sentence. Can you find what you read?

If SHBG goes down, so do total hormone levels.

 

[maxzax]

Hi Snipe,

ARe you using Arimidex and I3C at the same time?

Have you ever had your DHT levels while on I3C? I am wondering if reduces DHT like DIMM and a few other natural estrogen inhibitors. I read it does inhibit DHT as well, but can't find any clinical results on it.

If Arimidex increases Total Estrogens, maybe a combination of Arimidex and I3C will be beneficial to combat overall estrogen levels.

Thanks!!!

My estrone went from 23 to 104 afer discontinuing Arimidex. (0.25mg. 3x/week)

Estradiol went from 12 to 52 but is not valid since the latter value was not obtained using the extraction method. (I will retest soon.)

My total E's went down form 180 to 100 after several weeks of I3C @400mg/day, and remained at 100 after discontinuing Arimidex.

I intend to stay off Adex, remain on I3C, and retest in about 6 weeks.

 

[pmgamer18]

Max

Are you on TRT if not you crashed because you took to much and went past the window for a go level.
Here are some links I have or is it better to cut & paste I am new to this group.
http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBoostsTestosterone.htm

Study Shows That Arimidex Boosts Testosterone

Estrogen suppression in males: metabolic effects.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7 (ISSN: 0021-972X)
Mauras N; O'Brien KO; Klein KO; Hayes V nmauras@nemours.org.

We have shown that testosterone (T) deficiency per se is associated with marked catabolic effects on protein, calcium metabolism, and body composition in men independent of changes in GH or insulin-like growth factor I production. It is not clear,,however, whether estrogens have a major role in whole body anabolism in males. We investigated the metabolic effects of selective estrogen suppression in the male using a potent aromatase inhibitor, Arimidex (Anastrozole). First, a dose-response study of 12 males (mean age, 16.1 +/- 0.3 yr) was conducted, and blood withdrawn at baseline and after 10 days of oral Arimidex given as two different doses (either 0.5 or 1 mg) in random order with a 14-day washout in between. A sensitive estradiol (E2) assay showed an approximately 50% decrease in E2
concentrations with either of the two doses; hence, a 1-mg dose was selected for other studies. Subsequently, eight males (aged 15-22 yr; four adults and four late pubertal) had isotopic infusions of [(13)C]leucine and (42)Ca/(44)Ca, indirect calorimetry, dual energy x-ray absorptiometry, isokinetic dynamometry, and growth factors measurements performed before and after 10 weeks of daily doses of Arimidex. Contrary to the effects of T withdrawal, there were no significant changes in body composition (body mass index, fat mass, and fat-free mass) after estrogen suppression or in rates of protein synthesis or degradation; carbohydrate, lipid, or protein oxidation; muscle strength; calcium kinetics; or bone growth factors concentrations. However, E2 concentrations decreased 48% (P = 0.006), with
no significant change in mean and peak GH concentrations, but with an 18% decrease in plasma insulin-like growth factor I concentrations. There was a 58% increase in serum T (P = 0.0001), sex hormone-binding globulin did not change, whereas LH and FSH concentrations increased (P < 0.02, both). Serum bone markers, osteocalcin and bone alkaline phosphatase concentrations, and
rates of bone calcium deposition and resorption did not change. In conclusion, these data suggest that in the male 1) estrogens do not contribute significantly to the changes in body composition and protein
synthesis observed with changing androgen levels; 2) estrogen is a main regulator of the gonadal-pituitary feedback for the gonadotropin axis; and 3) this level of aromatase inhibition does not negatively impact either kinetically measured rates of bone calcium turnover or indirect markers of bone calcium turnover, at least in the short term. Further studies will provide valuable information on whether timed aromatase inhibition can be useful in increasing the height potential of pubertal boys with profound
growth retardation without the confounding negative effects of gonadal androgen suppression.

And this one.

http://tinyurl.com/2s292

1: J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Mar;89(3):1174-80. Related Articles, Links



Effects of aromatase inhibition in elderly men with low or borderline-low serum testosterone levels.

Leder BZ, Rohrer JL, Rubin SD, Gallo J, Longcope C.

Endocrine Unit, Department of Medicine, Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts 02114, USA.

As men age, serum testosterone levels decrease, a factor that may contribute to some aspects of age-related physiological deterioration. Although androgen replacement has been shown to have beneficial effects in frankly hypogonadal men, its use in elderly men with borderline hypogonadism is controversial. Furthermore, current testosterone replacement methods have important limitations. We investigated the ability of the orally administered aromatase inhibitor, anastrozole, to increase endogenous testosterone production in 37 elderly men (aged 62-74 yr) with screening serum testosterone levels less than 350 ng/dl. Subjects were randomized in a double-blind fashion to the following 12-wk oral regimens: group 1: anastrozole 1 mg daily (n = 12); group 2: anastrozole 1 mg twice weekly (n = 11); and group 3: placebo daily (n = 14). Hormone levels, quality of life (MOS Short-Form Health Survey), sexual function (International Index of Erectile Function), benign prostate hyperplasia severity (American Urological Association Symptom Index Score), prostate-specific antigen, and measures of safety were compared among groups. Mean +/- SD bioavailable testosterone increased from 99 +/- 31 to 207 +/- 65 ng/dl in group 1 and from 115 +/- 37 to 178 +/- 55 ng/dl in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = 0.054 group 1 vs. group 2). Total testosterone levels increased from 343 +/- 61 to 572 +/- 139 ng/dl in group 1 and from 397 +/- 106 to 520 +/- 91 ng/dl in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = 0.012 group 1 vs. group 2). Serum estradiol levels decreased from 26 +/- 8 to 17 +/- 6 pg/ml in group 1 and from 27 +/- 8 to 17 +/- 5 pg/ml in group 2 (P < 0.001 vs. placebo for both groups and P = NS group 1 vs. group 2). Serum LH levels increased from 5.1 +/- 4.8 to 7.9 +/- 6.5 U/liter and from 4.1 +/- 1.6 to 7.2 +/- 2.8 U/liter in groups 1 and 2, respectively (P = 0.007 group 1 vs. placebo, P = 0.003 group 2 vs. placebo, and P = NS group 1 vs. group 2). Scores for hematocrit, MOS Short-Form Health Survey, International Index of Erectile Function, and American Urological Association Symptom Index Score did not change. Serum prostate-specific antigen levels increased in group 2 only (1.7 +/- 1.0 to 2.2 +/- 1.5 ng/ml, P = 0.031, compared with placebo). These data demonstrate that aromatase inhibition increases serum bioavailable and total testosterone levels to the youthful normal range in older men with mild hypogonadism. Serum estradiol levels decrease modestly but remain within the normal male range. The physiological consequences of these changes remain to be determined.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 15001605 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Here is what has worked for a lot of guys I have talked to get some Indolopex with DIM. Take the cialis every 72 hrs and if your not on TRT take a half of a Indolopex/DIM when you start getting rock hard wood in the morning your E2 has come down to the window so keep taking it if the wood goes away stop the pill until it comes back the go back on half of what you started with keep doing this until you find the dose that keeps you in the window. If you are on TRT start on 1 pill a day if in 2 weeks you have nothing than take the max 2 pills.

It has to be Indolplex with DIM this is the only one we have had good luck with. I buy this one.
http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html
The guys in the UK have gotten it from 3 different brand names and it is working for them.

If your DHT is high this beings it down it has got mine down form 145 to 99 still high but better.
http://www.dimfaq.com/index.htm
A cut and paste on lower DHT.
http://www.lef.org/whatshot/2003_05.html#i3cb

Indole-3-carbinol byproduct acts as antiandrogen to halt prostate cancer cell growth

In a study funded in part by the National Institutes of Health, to be published in the June 6 2003 issue of the Journal of Biological Chemistry, University of California, Berkeley researchers have found that a digestive product of indole-3-carbinol, which occurs naturally in broccoli and other cruciferous vegetables, halts the growth of prostate cancer cells in vitro. The compound, 3,3-diindolymethane (DIM), inhibits androgenic hormones that fuel prostate cancer growth. Although androgen is important for the normal development of the prostate, it is believed to be involved in the early stages of prostate cancer.

The researchers administered DIM to androgen dependent and androgen independent prostate cancer cells and found that androgen-dependent cells experienced a 70 percent reduction in growth compared to those that did not receive the compound. Androgen-independent prostate cancer cells were not affected by DIM. The scientists went on to discover that DIM inhibited dihydrotestosterone, the primary androgenic hormone that is believed to be the culprit in prostate cancer. Dihydrotesterone stimulates prostate specific antigen, or PSA, which is elevated in prostate cancer. When DIM was administered to the androgen-dependent prostate cancer cells, PSA levels dropped.

A study of the molecular structure of DIM showed that it is similar to the androgen-blocking drug Casodex. Lead author Hien Le, PhD, explained, DIM works by binding to the same receptor that DHT uses, so it's essentially blocking the androgen from triggering the growth of the cancer cells."

Principle researcher and professor nutritional sciences and toxicology at UC Berkeley's College of Natural Resources, Leonard Bjeldanes, summarized, "As far as we know, this is the first plant-derived chemical discovered that acts as an antiandrogen. This is of considerable interest in the development of therapeutics and preventive agents for prostate cancer."

-D Dye

May 16, 2003

If doing this does not work then you need to see a Uro.

Phil

 

[SWALE]

jb, that is an interesting study, as it makes us think about the mechanisms of SHBG moduation. AIS is a condition where defects in the AR prevent testosterone from doing its good works. It is characterized by high levels of testosterone and gonadotrophins, but the outward symptoms of hypogonadism (along with developmental defects, of course).

 

[SWALE]

Let's be careful not to hang our hats on this observation I have made about Total E's rising on Arimidex. I have seen this on a few patients, not all. It is only recently I began checking Total E's. Before, that, it was cutting edge to just order E2. In those patients with good E2 but elevated Total E, I am going to begin ordering fractionated estrogens, to explore this further.

Of note, I am seeing a trend in that these are the same guys who complain of estrogen symptoms even after adding in Arimidex (and controlling E2 to mid-range).

All I have at this time is basically a few case studies. Puzzling? Yes.

 

[maxzax]

HI Swale,

With the 50% increase in Total E's how does that affect LH production?

I guess my main concern is would arimidex lowering E1 and E2, be enough to restore my HPTA and fix the symptoms?

Do high Total Estrogens mean much in terms how your patients feel?

Thanks!!!

Arimidex also prevents the conversion of androstenedione to estrone.

That is what is so puzzling. Why is it, if we are inhibiting the production of estrogens, and as demonstrated by lowered Estradiol levels, Total E's can remain at 50% over the top of physiological range??

 

[snipe]

Max.

Right now I am only on I3C, no Arimidex.

My last DHT was 10 (range= 25-75), at which time I was on Adex, & I3C. But, I was (and still am) taking Avodart.hence the abnormally low DHT. So, I doubt we can draw any kind of valid info from me regarding DHT.
Off hand though, I don't see why an aromatase inhibitor, natural or otherwise, would lower DHT. In fact I would think it might raise DHT due to the fact that AI's can raise testosterone.

Getting back to your original question as to whether Arimidex can lower estrone, I'd have to say yes. At least in my case as seen by the sudden jump in estrone when I discontinued Adex

 

[SWALE]

Max--That is a good question. I do not know if there is a differential in how the different varieties of estrogen inhibit the HPTA. I would hazard a guess that when Total E's goes up, even in the presence of mid-range Estradiol, that suppression is increased as well.

I quit running follow-up LH and FSH levels, except when the patient specifically requests them. So I have no data with respect to this question.

Part of what is going on here is that I am re-evaluating my protocols, as always, in order to improve them. And you, and the rest of the Bro's, are part of that process.

 

[maxzax]

Dr. Swale,

Please let us know your findings, I would be interested in knowing how you treat high Total E, if it rises when arimidex is used.

Thanks again!!!

Let's be careful not to hang our hats on this observation I have made about Total E's rising on Arimidex. I have seen this on a few patients, not all. It is only recently I began checking Total E's. Before, that, it was cutting edge to just order E2. In those patients with good E2 but elevated Total E, I am going to begin ordering fractionated estrogens, to explore this further.

Of note, I am seeing a trend in that these are the same guys who complain of estrogen symptoms even after adding in Arimidex (and controlling E2 to mid-range).

All I have at this time is basically a few case studies. Puzzling? Yes.

 

[maxzax]

Thanks Swale,

Always good to learn from you!!!

Max--That is a good question. I do not know if there is a differential in how the different varieties of estrogen inhibit the HPTA. I would hazard a guess that when Total E's goes up, even in the presence of mid-range Estradiol, that suppression is increased as well.

I quit running follow-up LH and FSH levels, except when the patient specifically requests them. So I have no data with respect to this question.

Part of what is going on here is that I am re-evaluating my protocols, as always, in order to improve them. And you, and the rest of the Bro's, are part of that process.

 

[pmgamer18]

Both of my E1 and E2 go down on Arimicex or Indolplex/DIM.
Phil

 

[maxzax]

THanks Phil,

I'll look into that combination!!!

Both of my E1 and E2 go down on Arimicex or Indolplex/DIM.
Phil

 

[Random987]

Can someone make the "tree" a sticky? ALso if we could have a chart showing the HPTA as a sticky that would be awesome.

 

[mranak]

Here is what I have seen in my clinical practice: I lower Estradiol levels with Arimidex, to mid range. But Total Estrogens go up, sometimes to 50% over the top of their collective physiological range. Since Estradiol is going down, that means Estrone and/or Estriol is going up even more. I have not gathered enough labs to figure this out yet, but am working on it.

I knew that you once said something about Arimidex lowering estradiol but not total estrogens. Found it! Now, to confirm:

1) What usually happens to 'total estrogens' when you give the patient Arimidex?
2) I'm still trying to figure out if 'total estrogens' includes just estradiol, estriol and estrone, or if it also includes the many estrogen metabolites. Anyone know?
3) Does DIM tend to lower estradiol _and_ total estrogens?

 

[benrock]

aromisin lowered my total estrogens in half in 2 weeks at 12.5 mg 2 times a week , i was at 230 ref 130- less , took pnp aromisin and got blood work 2 weeks later and i was at 110 and e2 was 9 which was low , but my mood was great and my libido was through the roof , so im confused , made me flush that was the only sideffect !!!

 

[mranak]

benrock: thanks for the data!

 

[maxzax]

benrock, have you ever tried arimidex I wonder if it would have the same results.

I have high E2 and high Total Estrogens.

Thanks!

 

[earthdog]

aromisin lowered my total estrogens in half in 2 weeks at 12.5 mg 2 times a week , i was at 230 ref 130- less , took pnp aromisin and got blood work 2 weeks later and i was at 110 and e2 was 9 which was low , but my mood was great and my libido was through the roof , so im confused , made me flush that was the only sideffect !!!

What is aromisin? Is it a prescription med?

 

[mranak]

benrock, have you ever tried arimidex I wonder if it would have the same results.

I wonder the same thing.

What is aromisin? Is it a prescription med?

Yes. There are three prescription aromatase inhibitors available:

- Aromasin (exemestane)
- Arimidex (anastrozole)
- Femara (letrozole)

While the all reduce estradiol, other things differ between the drugs. Sometimes the study data conflicts in these other arenas. Also, there isn't much, if any, study data of the use of these drugs in post-adolescent men.