Northern Nutrition
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Well written. I couldn't agree more.
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Dr Jims Hplc/ms Data
- Thread starter Dr JIM
- Start date
Well written. I couldn't agree more.
I've had a few requests recently for Mass Specs and perhaps I've created some confusion about what I'm doing why and when. I suspect the best way to explain this is to use contemporary athletic PED testing)
Mass Spec abbreviated MS and Liquid Chromatography or Gas Chromatography, abbreviated LC and GC respectively are different forms of tests that provide different information.
Alow me to digress to emphasize a few points; first understand any analytical test mandates the researcher be informed about "what am I looking for". So you just can't expect me or anyone else to evaluate a sample for: TELL ME WHAT'S IN THAT GH or AAS VIAL.
The same is true for any athletic PED analysis. Folks do you have any idea the initial cost of a WADA Tour De-France PED URINE screening assay costs about $2300.00!!!
Now granted this form of testing is no doubt the MOST EXTENSIVE of any sport related event.
Last time I checked they were searching for as many as 113 chemical compounds their substrates or metabolites. Add to that serum analyses or confirmatory assays and the amount may easily breach FIVE GRAND!
So to that end DEPENDING UPON WHAT YOUR LOOKING FOR and THE MEDIUM it's contained in (urine, saliva, blood, vial etc) the first test of choice is REAGENT TESTING such as Lab Max! The primary reason RT is used, is they are inexpensive and rarely have "false positives". So they are used to determine the ABSENCE of a particular substance OR one of it's metabolites.
That is, assume your an athlete being "tested for AAS or Tren in particular". They will collect a urine sample and if a colormetric change does not occur, the test is considered "a confirmed negative" for Tren. GOT IT!
Now because the reliability of Reagent Testing approximates 100% this result means you were NOT using Tren during an particular athletic event! (You may have used Tren BUT you waited long enough such that the amount was BELOW the preset RT threshold or perhaps you used an adulterant to dilute the urine or "trick the test", but that's an entirely different thread)
However suppose your RT turned up POSITIVE! What does this mean? It means you MAY HAVE USED Tren during a sporting event and that CONFIRMATORY TESTING is required!
So now the focus of the testing has now CHANGED from confirming the ABSENCE of a particular substance to confirming it's PRESENCE, and the differences are absolutely HUGE from an analytical perspective.
Now we must use one of several techniques used to confirm the presence of this forbidden substance and eliminate ANY chance of a FALSE POSITIVE RESULT. (The latter is obviously very important from a legal persecutive bc the incriminated athlete may claim slander, libel defamation of character, loss of consortium etc it they are falsely accused. Of course we don't hear about that much anymore bc the tests used and those conducting them are literally above reproach in this field. Those athletes whom have tried invariably acquiesced and accepted their "punishment")
To be concluded ....... as LC/MS
Mass Spec abbreviated MS and Liquid Chromatography or Gas Chromatography, abbreviated LC and GC respectively are different forms of tests that provide different information.
Alow me to digress to emphasize a few points; first understand any analytical test mandates the researcher be informed about "what am I looking for". So you just can't expect me or anyone else to evaluate a sample for: TELL ME WHAT'S IN THAT GH or AAS VIAL.
The same is true for any athletic PED analysis. Folks do you have any idea the initial cost of a WADA Tour De-France PED URINE screening assay costs about $2300.00!!!
Now granted this form of testing is no doubt the MOST EXTENSIVE of any sport related event.
Last time I checked they were searching for as many as 113 chemical compounds their substrates or metabolites. Add to that serum analyses or confirmatory assays and the amount may easily breach FIVE GRAND!
So to that end DEPENDING UPON WHAT YOUR LOOKING FOR and THE MEDIUM it's contained in (urine, saliva, blood, vial etc) the first test of choice is REAGENT TESTING such as Lab Max! The primary reason RT is used, is they are inexpensive and rarely have "false positives". So they are used to determine the ABSENCE of a particular substance OR one of it's metabolites.
That is, assume your an athlete being "tested for AAS or Tren in particular". They will collect a urine sample and if a colormetric change does not occur, the test is considered "a confirmed negative" for Tren. GOT IT!
Now because the reliability of Reagent Testing approximates 100% this result means you were NOT using Tren during an particular athletic event! (You may have used Tren BUT you waited long enough such that the amount was BELOW the preset RT threshold or perhaps you used an adulterant to dilute the urine or "trick the test", but that's an entirely different thread)
However suppose your RT turned up POSITIVE! What does this mean? It means you MAY HAVE USED Tren during a sporting event and that CONFIRMATORY TESTING is required!
So now the focus of the testing has now CHANGED from confirming the ABSENCE of a particular substance to confirming it's PRESENCE, and the differences are absolutely HUGE from an analytical perspective.
Now we must use one of several techniques used to confirm the presence of this forbidden substance and eliminate ANY chance of a FALSE POSITIVE RESULT. (The latter is obviously very important from a legal persecutive bc the incriminated athlete may claim slander, libel defamation of character, loss of consortium etc it they are falsely accused. Of course we don't hear about that much anymore bc the tests used and those conducting them are literally above reproach in this field. Those athletes whom have tried invariably acquiesced and accepted their "punishment")
To be concluded ....... as LC/MS
OK ON TO CONFIRMATORY ANALYSIS
Recall we were now discussing the athlete who had a positive test result, the comparison being a positive AAS result from LM that some mate did but want's that test confirmed for whatever reason.
There are TWO primary options
1) Liquid Chromatography
2) Mass Spec
LC ADVANTAGES
1) relatively inexpensive $200-500
2) highly accurate
3) enables a qualitative assessment (identifies specific compounds)
4) provides a quantitative assessment (determines the concentration)
DISADVANTAGES
1) MANDATES the use of research standards
2) technically challenging
3) spectra overlay
LC
1) outstanding at identifying a compound based on it's molecular weight
2) may identify more than one compound simultaneously
1) expensive $350 -700
2) molecular weight overlay (compounds with the same MW)
3) unable to provide concentration data unless special provisions are used for a "tandem LC/MS" unit
There are several other differences and similarities but if the objective is to identify a compound and it's concentration (like an AAS) the Gold Standard is HPLC while MS is ONLY used when the results from the HPLC analysis is equivocal.
Consequently the overwhelming majority of the studies I've conducted on samples to date has been an HPLC!
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Oh I forgot to mention according to WADA rules, any athlete whom contests (that's ALL, lol) the preliminary screening test MUST have TWO confirmatory tests performed!
So that means BOTH an LC and a MS must be performed!
So that means BOTH an LC and a MS must be performed!
WMSuperSport
New Member
JIm, I want you to test some stuff for me. Youre terrible at replying to PMs 
Respect brotha
Respect brotha
JIm, I want you to test some stuff for me. Youre terrible at replying to PMs
Respect brotha
I didn't know that responding to a PM was a Meso requirement, have you any idea how many PMs I receive or how many other responsibilities I have? NOT!
I don't understand how some people on Meso believe reminding others of their "failures" is an effective means of acquiring their assistance. Goodness!
WMSuperSport
New Member
Alright dude, you are clearly a fucking prick. You may "sound" smart and insult so many people around here. But the truth is, most people don't give a shit how intelligent you portray yourself to be or how "intellectual or popular" or whatever. Even some people who respect you, still talk shit behind your back lol. You obviously have a complex and you clearly hate yourself enough to try to bring the rest of the world down to make yourself feel better. I dont care how many people I piss off with this post, but you need to be told how stupid and unnecessarilly rude you make yourself seem sometimes. You're a fucking nut job.
BTW, the smiley face following my post about never responding to my PMs, was clearly a sign of a light-hearted joke, and I could actually give a rat's ass if you ever respond to me. I live in the same area as you and if you have the balls to have a productive and meaningful conversation with me in person, instead of hiding behind a keyboard to unnecessarily insult people, then lets do it! The people Ive talked to on this board all agree that you are a fucking nut... like a retarded fucking dick-head with low self esteem that feels need to insult others to make yourself feel smarter/dominant/whatever your complex gives you. So fuck you dude, Im dont ever reading any of your bullshit, whenther it be credible or not, just because you're a fucking douche....
And no I could care less about the following flames from the nut huggers who love Jim, even tho most dont even know a thing about him, or the accuracy of his overly-complicated statements about even the simplest of topics.
'Yeah he may have alot of imformative and useful info he posts, but because of how he treats people, he can eat a fuckin dick. A real Dr. should be more respectful and unbiased, instead of the opposite....
No I will not read the flames that are sure to come by many many nut huggers.
And remember, here in America, I can say whatever I want, just like you can.
If you think Jim is a saint, go search how many posts he insults people and acts like a fucking child
BTW, the smiley face following my post about never responding to my PMs, was clearly a sign of a light-hearted joke, and I could actually give a rat's ass if you ever respond to me. I live in the same area as you and if you have the balls to have a productive and meaningful conversation with me in person, instead of hiding behind a keyboard to unnecessarily insult people, then lets do it! The people Ive talked to on this board all agree that you are a fucking nut... like a retarded fucking dick-head with low self esteem that feels need to insult others to make yourself feel smarter/dominant/whatever your complex gives you. So fuck you dude, Im dont ever reading any of your bullshit, whenther it be credible or not, just because you're a fucking douche....
And no I could care less about the following flames from the nut huggers who love Jim, even tho most dont even know a thing about him, or the accuracy of his overly-complicated statements about even the simplest of topics.
'Yeah he may have alot of imformative and useful info he posts, but because of how he treats people, he can eat a fuckin dick. A real Dr. should be more respectful and unbiased, instead of the opposite....
No I will not read the flames that are sure to come by many many nut huggers.
And remember, here in America, I can say whatever I want, just like you can.
If you think Jim is a saint, go search how many posts he insults people and acts like a fucking child
Now lets see here instead of simply forwarding another PM which you should have done from the outset, you lash out at me taking umbrage at your comment, I'm "terrible at responding to PMs"
How damn self centered can you be? How do YOU know what my PM response time is overall ? No, what your really saying is YOUR preconceived notion of an appropriate response time, to YOUR PM is up, JIM!
Your late JIm and I'm growing impatient bc waiting more that 10 days is excessive in MY BOOK!
Why do some people believe there is a time limit for my or anyone else's responses to PMs? We are not talking about certified mail fella, damn how juvenile can one be.
Such a suggestion is presumptuous, inconsiderate and telling about why some people DESERVE NO RESPONSE!
(A word of advice should someone NOT respond to your "PMs'", as myself for a variety of reasons, perhaps they chose not to OR perhaps it's was simply overlooked. But one thing which is most certain to be counterproductive is calling them out on Meso's open forum citing their "failure" to respond as being below the standard.)
How damn self centered can you be? How do YOU know what my PM response time is overall ? No, what your really saying is YOUR preconceived notion of an appropriate response time, to YOUR PM is up, JIM!
Your late JIm and I'm growing impatient bc waiting more that 10 days is excessive in MY BOOK!
Why do some people believe there is a time limit for my or anyone else's responses to PMs? We are not talking about certified mail fella, damn how juvenile can one be.
Such a suggestion is presumptuous, inconsiderate and telling about why some people DESERVE NO RESPONSE!
(A word of advice should someone NOT respond to your "PMs'", as myself for a variety of reasons, perhaps they chose not to OR perhaps it's was simply overlooked. But one thing which is most certain to be counterproductive is calling them out on Meso's open forum citing their "failure" to respond as being below the standard.)
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WMSuperSport
New Member
Same ol Dr Jim... what a surprise.
No this wasnt the first PM you ignored, and no my earlier statement was based on much more than ignoring PMs. Its your whole attitude toward people. If you were soooo smart, maybe you could realize that, but I guess not. Im done running around in conversations with a child that go nowhere and just in end up in insults towards the person trying to be productive. Fuck off dude. Its worse than arguing with my ex-girlfriend. Your credibility is shot with me
No this wasnt the first PM you ignored, and no my earlier statement was based on much more than ignoring PMs. Its your whole attitude toward people. If you were soooo smart, maybe you could realize that, but I guess not. Im done running around in conversations with a child that go nowhere and just in end up in insults towards the person trying to be productive. Fuck off dude. Its worse than arguing with my ex-girlfriend. Your credibility is shot with me
Northern Nutrition
Subscriber
I totally agree with WM SuperSport, every word.
BUT...if you take the time to navigate through Jim's facade, exterior bullshit, and perhaps to some degree - insecurities, you'll discover an intelligent person who is genuinely interested in providing help to the membership - particularly in areas that few have experience in. It took my awhile to understand and accept Jim's online personality as it can be undoubtedly condescending, pompous, and perhaps rude at times. (i think ive been guilty of behaving like that one or twice as well
)
However, most of the time its harmless if you force yourself to ignore the negative commentary and step over the rude remarks. And in the end, if youre more than patient, you'll actually gain some knowledge in areas you likely had none to begin with.
So dont take anything Jim says to heart. His intentions are honorable, and his help here has been invaluable.
p.s. for what its worth, i blocked Jim a while back because i felt exactly how you did above. but i recently unblocked him because i took the time to read his posts as a guest and slowly began to understand his online personae and discovered he really is interested in sharing his knowledge and providing assistance wherever he can. he's looking for the same thing we are, the truth.
My 02
BUT...if you take the time to navigate through Jim's facade, exterior bullshit, and perhaps to some degree - insecurities, you'll discover an intelligent person who is genuinely interested in providing help to the membership - particularly in areas that few have experience in. It took my awhile to understand and accept Jim's online personality as it can be undoubtedly condescending, pompous, and perhaps rude at times. (i think ive been guilty of behaving like that one or twice as well
)However, most of the time its harmless if you force yourself to ignore the negative commentary and step over the rude remarks. And in the end, if youre more than patient, you'll actually gain some knowledge in areas you likely had none to begin with.
So dont take anything Jim says to heart. His intentions are honorable, and his help here has been invaluable.
p.s. for what its worth, i blocked Jim a while back because i felt exactly how you did above. but i recently unblocked him because i took the time to read his posts as a guest and slowly began to understand his online personae and discovered he really is interested in sharing his knowledge and providing assistance wherever he can. he's looking for the same thing we are, the truth.
My 02
JIm, I want you to test some stuff for me. Youre terrible at replying to PMs
Respect brotha
That's one of the strangest requests to get something for FREE that I've ever seen. Don't get what you want WHEN you want it - go off on the person.
Nevertheless, I will direct your attention to these words that you wrote less than a year ago, WM.
Totally agree with CBS every word!
What's is even more disturbing is how you somehow believe your entitled to a response to your silly PM. What so I announce I'm willing to test some AAS or GH but WHO said you would be included, how presumptuous! Good luck with that testing fella!
What's is even more disturbing is how you somehow believe your entitled to a response to your silly PM. What so I announce I'm willing to test some AAS or GH but WHO said you would be included, how presumptuous! Good luck with that testing fella!
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WMSuperSport
New Member
I agree here, BUT I would NEVER ask for anything for FREE! You're putting words in my mouth, its very off-putting of you. I told Jim in my post "Respect brotha."
You guys get so butt-hurt for the dumbest shit. Whats so hard with just being cool and laid back with yall? Arent we all friends here? Or have you proclaimed yourselves as the official "keyboard assholes?" I was never being a dick or attacking anyone until yall pull this shit on me.
And Jim, I have someone who will test my shit right now, but I had the respect to try to ask you first, but since you don't have the ability to NOT be an asshole about it, then Id never do business with you. You guys have a huge chip on your shoulder and its VERY annoying.
And CBS, regarding my other quotes, that has nothing to do with this. Either way, I don't have time to sit here behind a keyboard and battle it out with yall. I got way better shit to do. Im doing great without yall.
I will however, still show much respect to you guys, and whether you take it or not, Id like to keep learning from yall, but with just a quiet tongue, since I get bashed on every little word I say. PEACE
OTE="WMSuperSport, post: 1154273, member: 60914"]I agree here, BUT I would NEVER ask for anything for FREE! You're putting wor? my mouth, its very off-putting of you. I told Jim in my post "Respect brotha."
You guys get so butt-hurt for the dumbest shit. Whats so hard with just being cool and laid back with yall? Arent we all friends here? Or have you proclaimed yourselves as the official "keyboard assholes?" I was never being a dick or attacking anyone until yall pull this shit on me.
And Jim, I have someone who will test my shit right now, but I had the respect to try to ask you first, but since you don't have the ability to NOT be an asshole about it, then Id never do business with you. You guys have a huge chip on your shoulder and its VERY annoying.
And CBS, regarding my other quotes, that has nothing to do with this. Either way, I don't have time to sit here behind a keyboard and battle it out with yall. I got way better shit to do. Im doing great without yall.
I will however, still show much respect to you guys, and whether you take it or not, Id like to keep learning from yall, but with just a quiet tongue, since I get bashed on every little word I say. PEACE[/QUOTE]
The Doc will thank you and whomever is doing these tests to do your lot and another dozen who are waiting.
Respect asking doc first? You believe guys see you and they jockey for position for the chance to serve you? You crazy ain'tcha?
Doc...if I could send lunch over I would. Lunch and a half dozen 30mg dexadrine. Long days and nights. You almost got to test slicks shit! Maybe next time?
Sorry for being so tardy. I'm way out in the Desert brought my girls cuz some groceries. Hiding out so I'm doing my part. It gets lonely in the lam.
You guys get so butt-hurt for the dumbest shit. Whats so hard with just being cool and laid back with yall? Arent we all friends here? Or have you proclaimed yourselves as the official "keyboard assholes?" I was never being a dick or attacking anyone until yall pull this shit on me.
And Jim, I have someone who will test my shit right now, but I had the respect to try to ask you first, but since you don't have the ability to NOT be an asshole about it, then Id never do business with you. You guys have a huge chip on your shoulder and its VERY annoying.
And CBS, regarding my other quotes, that has nothing to do with this. Either way, I don't have time to sit here behind a keyboard and battle it out with yall. I got way better shit to do. Im doing great without yall.
I will however, still show much respect to you guys, and whether you take it or not, Id like to keep learning from yall, but with just a quiet tongue, since I get bashed on every little word I say. PEACE[/QUOTE]
The Doc will thank you and whomever is doing these tests to do your lot and another dozen who are waiting.
Respect asking doc first? You believe guys see you and they jockey for position for the chance to serve you? You crazy ain'tcha?
Doc...if I could send lunch over I would. Lunch and a half dozen 30mg dexadrine. Long days and nights. You almost got to test slicks shit! Maybe next time?
Sorry for being so tardy. I'm way out in the Desert brought my girls cuz some groceries. Hiding out so I'm doing my part. It gets lonely in the lam.
Ya'll check this out. Just cuz u say you're being respectful doesn't mean you are...cuz you ain't.
What about going to doc the way u did was respectful? Even if u bit ur slick tongue? Another test? Respect would be giving him a break. You paying to get it done elsewhere is appreciated..i assure you of that.
What about going to doc the way u did was respectful? Even if u bit ur slick tongue? Another test? Respect would be giving him a break. You paying to get it done elsewhere is appreciated..i assure you of that.
I don't care the slighest about Jim's "tone" or "style" or who he "insults". You know why? Because's he's got SUBSTANCE. And I don't mean PEDs.
So, correct me if I'm wrong. Jim's spent his free time over many years offering not only free but HIGH-QUALITY advice to members and folks he doesn't even know and has no stake in, not only that, he's offering FREE testing of PEDS (which obviously are an EXPENSE for him), and yet the problem in this otherwise thick-skinned environment is his "tone" when he states things bluntly after having repeated himself just about 10 000 times?
Right...
So, correct me if I'm wrong. Jim's spent his free time over many years offering not only free but HIGH-QUALITY advice to members and folks he doesn't even know and has no stake in, not only that, he's offering FREE testing of PEDS (which obviously are an EXPENSE for him), and yet the problem in this otherwise thick-skinned environment is his "tone" when he states things bluntly after having repeated himself just about 10 000 times?
Right...
How in the hell do you take "JIm, I want you to test some stuff for me. Youre terrible at replying to PMs
Respect brotha" as being rude? I've seen rude posts before, many from Jimm himself. This one is not rude. Jimm, do you have one of those autism disorders that prevents you from developing normal people skills?
Respect brotha" as being rude? I've seen rude posts before, many from Jimm himself. This one is not rude. Jimm, do you have one of those autism disorders that prevents you from developing normal people skills?
How in the hell do you misspell jim?How in the hell do you take "JIm, I want you to test some stuff for me. Youre terrible at replying to PMs
Respect brotha" as being rude? I've seen rude posts before, many from Jimm himself. This one is not rude. Jimm, do you have one of those autism disorders that prevents you from developing normal people skills?
Jim is spot on here from my experience. Some of the lab directors I deal with test athletes of a different type and they have to screen for over 100 substances. If the screening tests shows the likely presence of a prohibited substance both LC and MS tests are performed to confirm as well as determine the concentration in either the plasma or urine whichever they are dealing with.
Dr. Jim, haven't communicated with you much since Karl's thread finally died the death it deserved. Thanks again for all you do for the members here my friend. Regards, MP
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