Dr Scally's views on PCT....

[Steroid News]

Q: What’s the logic behind all the different timing and dosing of HCG ?? We hear taking it every day, every other day, every 3rd, 4th, or 5th day. What about the dosing ? I hear to take it easy to prevent desensitizing the testes. With this you hear anywhere from 100 units to 250 [...]

How Do I Use HCG with Steroids?

Q: What's the logic behind all the different timing and dosing of HCG ?? We hear taking it every day, every other day, every 3rd, 4th, or 5th day. What

thinksteroids.com

 

[Sworder]

Here is one article that deals with PCT.

Regarding the fact that Estradiol is more suppressive than test wouldn't it be best to always run a AI when using a AAS with high aromatase affinity? Yes, I hear that you lose some gains when you use an AI on cycle but one would perhaps prefer this and get a speedier recovery?

 

[bigrobbie]

Sworder- estrogen rebound doesn't always happen, however, I always have rebound when I've ceased SERM use. I can't give you a time for levels to even out that I can back with science, but personally, I'm usually back in the normal range 1-2 weeks after stopping SERMs. So I feel using and AI for 1 week past SERM then that is when Dr. Scally's suggestion should be followed and blood work should be done.

I agree with somead that I'd love to hear Mr. Scally post a "checklist" for lack of a better term, of what we need to look for in blood work results. BW results are easily understood by many here, but I have always slacked, not only on getting BW done, but also on researching it to gain a basic understanding on how to better understand my results.

 

[haas480]

what are some of your views of hcg duration/regime while on cycle?

in the above link posted by sworder, Scally notes a 4 week on, 4 week off hcg schedule for a patient using AAS.

ive seen moderate dosing through the entirety of a 12-14 week cycle as well.

just want to see what others have to say.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

what are some of your views of hcg duration/regime while on cycle?

in the above link posted by sworder, Scally notes a 4 week on, 4 week off hcg schedule for a patient using AAS.

ive seen moderate dosing through the entirety of a 12-14 week cycle as well.

just want to see what others have to say.

I just read the link and it is not clear what I meant. IMO, the link is not written well. I have no recollection of the writing! Regardless, the idea of 4 on 4 off does not make sense! The use of hCG is to check/restore testes function. I recently posted on this here:

Low Test Results Post Cycle After 2.5 Months

I did my first cycle of test and eq. Gained about 15 lbs of muscle. Did post cycle therapy with Clomid and Nolvadex for 4 weeks. Ever since I have felt sluggish depresed and no sex drive. I went to the doc and my test levels were in the gutter. My ball size went back to normal. Its been almost 3...

thinksteroids.com

Obviously, if hCG is used during the cycle its need will be less after stopping AAS. But, this will depend upon the AAS type, dose, and duration. In other words, if the AAS cycle was 750 TC/TE per week, the hCG will be continued until such time one expects the body's own endogenous T to begin (although helped with hCG).

This is very easy to do when monitoring patients. I would have a TT done a few days after their last injection. Since we know the half-life, we know when the level will be less than normal so the effect of hCG will be evident at later testing. The important part is the timing which ensures the AAS out of the system so HPTA function can be restored.

As far as bloodwork, it is plain and simple. First (hCG): TT. Second (SERM): LH & TT. I would repeat the TT & LH about 30 days after all meds are discontinued.

 

[haas480]

I have no recollection of the writing! Regardless, the idea of 4 on 4 off does not make sense!

Agreed, I was baffled.
But now we've cleared that up for all of us. thanks.

 

[someanddone]

I just read the link and it is not clear what I meant. IMO, the link is not written well. I have no recollection of the writing! Regardless, the idea of 4 on 4 off does not make sense! The use of hCG is to check/restore testes function. I recently posted on this here: https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134308375

Obviously, if hCG is used during the cycle its need will be less after stopping AAS. But, this will depend upon the AAS type, dose, and duration. In other words, if the AAS cycle was 750 TC/TE per week, the hCG will be continued until such time one expects the body's own endogenous T to begin (although helped with hCG).

This is very easy to do when monitoring patients. I would have a TT done a few days after their last injection. Since we know the half-life, we know when the level will be less than normal so the effect of hCG will be evident at later testing. The important part is the timing which ensures the AAS out of the system so HPTA function can be restored.

As far as bloodwork, it is plain and simple. First (hCG): TT. Second (SERM): LH & TT. I would repeat the TT & LH about 30 days after all meds are discontinued.

Now THAT'S what I'm talking about! Thanks for such a helpful post. Easily read and understood (for us not-so-smart meatheads) and helpfully to the point. Thanks Dr. Scally. :tiphat

 

[BBC3]

To further clarify to proposed possible necessity as I dont think it was totally clear. When using a SERM to stimulate TT production you are blocking the reception at many E receptors while at the same time encouraging increased TT output. So you are combining increased TT levels to convert to E's, a starved receptor (breast tissue for sure) now freed, and finally potential upregulation resulting from the SERM period. I dont totally disagree with the potential necessity in many. But I would not think it wise to run the AI any longer than half the period you ran the serm.

If you are going to do this you should probably just wait till you take the last Clomid or NOlva tab to start the AI, as the SERMS have about a one week period of strong serum concentration past discontinuation. The AI should take no longer than that to reach plasma counts also...

Sworder- estrogen rebound doesn't always happen, however, I always have rebound when I've ceased SERM use. I can't give you a time for levels to even out that I can back with science, but personally, I'm usually back in the normal range 1-2 weeks after stopping SERMs. So I feel using and AI for 1 week past SERM then that is when Dr. Scally's suggestion should be followed and blood work should be done.

I agree with somead that I'd love to hear Mr. Scally post a "checklist" for lack of a better term, of what we need to look for in blood work results. BW results are easily understood by many here, but I have always slacked, not only on getting BW done, but also on researching it to gain a basic understanding on how to better understand my results.

 

[bigrobbie]

Thank you for filling in the gaps that I didn't bridge bro.