First things first, i'm in Europe and basically besides USA and a few other countries doing a lcms test is not doable, so when we use 2-3-4 different compounds we can't be 100% accurate to what the simple test says. Yes, tren is the most known that skews the results but who knows exactly what happens with nandrolone, EQ etc.
I don't think e2 is doing much per anabolism simply because there was a whole era of bodybuilders who used to crash their estradiol all year round because they simply thought it was a female hormone. Their bodies grew like it was intented but who knows how their joints, libido and well being was.. (i'm curious).
There's no way someone come up with a ratio that works while having 600ng/dl and 6000ng/dl. It's mathematically impossible, even if it's 30pg/ml in the first case it has to be 300pg/ml in the second. I guess we can agree that ratios are bs.
Now, allowing a tad higher e2 while blasting in the off season might be ok, but still i doubt there's positive effects going north of 60-70 and still, if you can handle it. I've been up to 106 and nothing "better" came up. Just yesterday i had a conv with a buddy who's ifbb pro and currently running 900mg test + nandrolone+ mast and he was feeling like shit lately, he's also bloated, no libido etc and his e2 came up 120 which technically for 900mg test ain't that high (according to ratio dudes). His coach have him now at 1mg arimidex eod to bring that down to ~50.
Also, i've seen many guys in real life and here in meso too that regardless of total test if their e2 starts creeping up to 40-50 and upwards they're getting a number of sides, from mood swings, acne, bloating etc.
Yes, we agree ratios aren’t reliable person to person. Also, extremely high estrogen is ridiculous in the sense that side effects do and will occur at some point. I was hoping to be clear in “side effects will determine how far you push your body individually.”
Now, as a contrast between the Golden Era and today...today bodybuilders step on stage looking like freak shows. Nobody looks at a competitor and notates how healthy they appear, simply because they don’t, they look depleted, dry to the bone, and exhausted, facial features sunken from dehydration. They sacrifice overall health in more ways than one for a position in time. I resonate with their drive, determination, and momentum to be the best, however, we’ve moved the line hard in the 90s through current times for what’s expected. Humans like extremes, even at the sacrifice of health.
Golden Era bodybuilders were never “crashing estrogen.” That wasn’t even possible. Aromatase inhibitors didn’t exist until the late ’80s to ’90s, and sensitive estradiol testing in men didn’t exist either. They ran test, Dianabol, Deca, and Primo, and Dianabol converts to methylestradiol, a potent estrogen. The full, pumped, joint friendly Golden Era look was literally built on estrogenic input. As for Primo playing a role, absolutely, but that wasn’t even knowledge to them at the time. Many of the golden era guys claimed eating 6 to 10 Dbol pills a day. In their time that was most likely 10mg, they had no way to combat methylestrogen as we still can't today. They had plenty of estrogen, and methyl being far stronger and superior. Methyleestradiol is more potent, stronger and faster acting/lasting, and far more active in the muscles and connective tissue.
Estradiol isn’t directly anabolic, but it is critically supportive. Joints, tendons, nitric oxide (pumps), vascular function, lipids, mood, and libido all depend on it. That’s why guys can have normal E2 on paper yet feel dry, achy, flat, and inflamed when androgen load is high it’s relative estrogen deficiency, but not absolute. Balance is what I'm preaching, and it can't be verified by labs depending on compounds.
There is no universal T/E2 ratio. A guy at 600 ng/dL and a guy at 6000 ng/dL are not in the same (endocrine) environment. EQ, Tren, DHTs, and Nor19s all suppress aromatase or alter receptor signaling, so fixed ratios like 30:1 don’t predict how tissues actually feel. The cycle you mention your friend is running and feeling like shit explains this.
Some people get sides at E2 40 to 60, others feel awful below it, that’s genetics, receptor sensitivity, prolactin, DHT, and so on. Personally, I thrive between 60 and 80. That’s me...that’s what I’ve noticed and kept in my desk drawer. I think it’s pertinent to the symptoms described in this thread.
History, physiology, and realworld experience all show the same thing, that estrogen isn’t the enemy. Unbalanced estrogen is.
Most guys get stuck at, “My E2 is 40, so estrogen can’t be the problem.” I’m just hoping to point out the missing layer “40 relative to what androgen load, what drugs, and what receptor environment?”
This is exactly why people on EQ, Tren, or DHT heavy stacks get wrecked joints, no pumps, and tendon pain, all while their labs say “in range.”
You also correctly called out something very few people do about Golden Era physiques. To clarify, they were estrogenic by design, not despite estrogen. They were balanced for the most part. Yes they also had various side effects. Distended gut (bloat)... And so on. But they always looked full, pumped, healthy in most light.
