Endurance training methods

[bossetti]

Hi everyone
I make this thread to talk about endurance training(with special supplements or not) and physiology, i am not a coach, i just love nerding abt it
Ofc is gonna be more about cycling but most principles are the same in every endurance sport
Gonna start from simple things to more technical one

 

[zneekah]

Love it bro!

I try to streamline my training as much as possible (both strength and cardio)

Do you see any value in 6-7 rounds of 10 second sprint (all out force) followed by 20 second rest on the assault bike?

I alternate between this and the more typical 20-30 min at 120-130 bpm on the bike.

 

[bossetti]

ZONE 2:the hype behind it
In the last time zone 2 seem to be the best way yo gain fitness and its true but imho only if u have time to train a lot, because at a zone 2 HR the stroke volume its already at the maximum,and thats a good thing to improve the stroke volume while keeping the fatigue low, and also pparδ activation improve(thats probably why cardarine dont do much on elite trained endurance athletes,because the activation is probably at the limit)

Activation of PPARδ signaling improves skeletal muscle oxidative metabolism and endurance function in an animal model of ischemic left ventricular dysfunction - PMC

Exercise intolerance in heart failure has been linked to impaired skeletal muscle oxidative capacity. Oxidative metabolism and exercise capacity are regulated by PPARδ signaling. We hypothesized that PPARδ stimulation reverts skeletal muscle ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Another thing that improve is mitochondria density in muscles giving the improvement in aerobic capacity and last but not at least a better lactate clearance(with the help of the improvement in density of MCT-1 transporter that transport the lactate in to the cell)

Assessment of Metabolic Flexibility by Means of Measuring Blood Lactate, Fat, and Carbohydrate Oxidation Responses to Exercise in Professional Endurance Athletes and Less-Fit Individuals - PubMed

Blood lactate accumulation is negatively correlated with FATox and positively correlated with CHOox during exercise across populations with widely ranging metabolic capabilities. Because both lactate and fatty acids are mitochondrial substrates, we believe that measurements of [La^-]...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So i think that long zone 2 is a great thing for athletes that do at least 8h of endurance training a week(im talking for cyclists, for runners its different because they cant train much), but that alone isnt enough i would say that mixing it with some other zones is needed, in every case, not only for endurance athletes
ofc all this in the end improve fat oxydation

Gonna do soon a post on ronnestadt hiit studies probably, really interesting things

 

[bossetti]

Love it bro!

I try to streamline my training as much as possible (both strength and cardio)

Do you see any value in 6-7 rounds of 10 second sprint (all out force) followed by 20 second rest on the assault bike?

I alternate between this and the more typical 20-30 min at 120-130 bpm on the bike.

I would say that doing 30/30 or 40/20 is better but yeah isnt that bad

 

[Psy-chonaut]

- I know very little about this field of training, maybe nothing at all, so I am just gonna sit back 'watch' and read - and maybe get a little enlightened on the way ...

Thank you for starting this thread.....

 

[bossetti]

- I know very little about this field of training, maybe nothing at all, so I am just gonna sit back 'watch' and read - and maybe get a little enlightened on the way ...

Thank you for starting this thread.....

Dont worry! If u have questions of every type dont mind to ask them! I dont think many people are gonna be interested in this thread lol

 

[VikingMD]

ZONE 2:the hype behind it
In the last time zone 2 seem to be the best way yo gain fitness and its true but imho only if u have time to train a lot, because at a zone 2 HR the stroke volume its already at the maximum,and thats a good thing to improve the stroke volume while keeping the fatigue low, and also pparδ activation improve(thats probably why cardarine dont do much on elite trained endurance athletes,because the activation is probably at the limit)

Activation of PPARδ signaling improves skeletal muscle oxidative metabolism and endurance function in an animal model of ischemic left ventricular dysfunction - PMC

Exercise intolerance in heart failure has been linked to impaired skeletal muscle oxidative capacity. Oxidative metabolism and exercise capacity are regulated by PPARδ signaling. We hypothesized that PPARδ stimulation reverts skeletal muscle ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Another thing that improve is mitochondria density in muscles giving the improvement in aerobic capacity and last but not at least a better lactate clearance(with the help of the improvement in density of MCT-1 transporter that transport the lactate in to the cell)

Assessment of Metabolic Flexibility by Means of Measuring Blood Lactate, Fat, and Carbohydrate Oxidation Responses to Exercise in Professional Endurance Athletes and Less-Fit Individuals - PubMed

Blood lactate accumulation is negatively correlated with FATox and positively correlated with CHOox during exercise across populations with widely ranging metabolic capabilities. Because both lactate and fatty acids are mitochondrial substrates, we believe that measurements of [La^-]...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So i think that long zone 2 is a great thing for athletes that do at least 8h of endurance training a week(im talking for cyclists, for runners its different because they cant train much), but that alone isnt enough i would say that mixing it with some other zones is needed, in every case, not only for endurance athletes
ofc all this in the end improve fat oxydation

Gonna do soon a post on ronnestadt hiit studies probably, really interesting things

If you haven't you should really watch Stephen Seiler's lectures and read some of his literature. It is very compelling. Inigo San milan adapted much of his theories in creating his coaching plans.

At the same time it is possible that a pyramidal approach to effort distribution may be superior to the 80/20 approach. I think that the summary is 2-3 days of VO2 and/or threshold. 4-5 days of endurance work with 1-2 of those days being longer endurance is the way to go.

The other interesting training principles which use a lot more data and field testing are out of Norway. Olav Aleksander Blu seems to have developed some incredibly innovative ways to train and monitor.

 

[VikingMD]

I could talk about this stuff ad nauseam and have been researching it for 10-15 years.

 

[zneekah]

I would say that doing 30/30 or 40/20 is better but yeah isnt that bad

Thanks brother gonna try bumping it to 20 second sprint, its just that the assault bike drains me so fast when I go full throttle (im 110kg and leg heavy). But I'm sure theres a learning curve here that I could push through.

I'm also experimenting atm with things like being on the bike (indoor at the gym) for 15 minutes, and using the same settings/bike trying to improve the amount of calories I burn according to the bike (could just aswell be distance I guess, just need a measurable parameter) to create some progressive overload.

Basically I'm trying to find ways to get more competitive in the ways of doing cardio instead of my usual watch the phone while pedaling for a while and hoping its gonna improve my cardio fitness, but I realize I may be thinking like a bodybuilder and translating how overload works in the gym vs in the cardio world.

Also I'm sure you have said somewhere but do you use any of these:

L-carnitine
SLU-PP-332
MOTS-C

 

[zneekah]

If you haven't you should really watch Stephen Seiler's lectures and read some of his literature. It is very compelling. Inigo San milan adapted much of his theories in creating his coaching plans.

At the same time it is possible that a pyramidal approach to effort distribution may be superior to the 80/20 approach. I think that the summary is 2-3 days of VO2 and/or threshold. 4-5 days of endurance work with 1-2 of those days being longer endurance is the way to go.

The other interesting training principles which use a lot more data and field testing are out of Norway. Olav Aleksander Blu seems to have developed some incredibly innovative ways to train and monitor.

Brother this is interesting but I think I talk for many of us trenoloided meatheads if you would lower the jargon-bar and expand on phrases like VO2, threshold etc.

Hate to block your session of nerdy cybersex but its for the best of the discussion I think!

 

[bossetti]

If you haven't you should really watch Stephen Seiler's lectures and read some of his literature. It is very compelling. Inigo San milan adapted much of his theories in creating his coaching plans.

At the same time it is possible that a pyramidal approach to effort distribution may be superior to the 80/20 approach. I think that the summary is 2-3 days of VO2 and/or threshold. 4-5 days of endurance work with 1-2 of those days being longer endurance is the way to go.

The other interesting training principles which use a lot more data and field testing are out of Norway. Olav Aleksander Blu seems to have developed some incredibly innovative ways to train and monitor.

Never seen stephen seiler s work, but usually yeah i also do 2/3 hard days 2/3 days long sub LT1 and one day easy
For the pyramidal or not approach i think it depends i wanted to talk about it later but i do it briefly rn there is this study on GT top five(not sure but if i remember well from movidtar) i think that they used a pyramidal in the very first part of the season then switched to polarized and then they tapered by doing volume

 

[bossetti]

Brother this is interesting but I think I talk for many of us trenoloided meatheads if you would lower the jargon-bar and expand on phrases like VO2, threshold etc.

Hate to block your session of nerdy cybersex but its for the best of the discussion I think!

Honestly i think yeah its important to talk about training in a general way but i wanted to dig pretty deep on physiology ecc
So if someone wanted to talk about it in a deep way its better we just have to keep it in the topic itself so in this case was the zone 2,talking about other zones is a bit off topic,when me or someone else want to talk about a certain topic it should be divided idk if i written in a good way lol


THIS THREAD IS SUPPOSED TO BE ENDURANCE PHYSIOLOGY TALK!!!

 

[bossetti]

Thanks brother gonna try bumping it to 20 second sprint, its just that the assault bike drains me so fast when I go full throttle (im 110kg and leg heavy). But I'm sure theres a learning curve here that I could push through.

Its not exactly the same thing u probably have to go a bit slower

Also I'm sure you have said somewhere but do you use any of these:

L-carnitine
SLU-PP-332
MOTS-C

Like i said its not a drug thread,i want to try carnitine but i think they are all marginal gains to elite trained athletes

 

[bossetti]

I could talk about this stuff ad nauseam and have been researching it for 10-15 years.

If u want do it !! I want to do it in a more complete way possible!!! For other topics just wait a bit

 

[zneekah]

Okay okay do your nerd talk I'll go jerk off in the corner

 

[VikingMD]

Okay okay do your nerd talk I'll go jerk off in the corner

No way it is great to have all levels in the conversation! If you're just learning some of this stuff, that's great. Knowledge is power.

Threshold= it is that point when you go from primarily aerobic to anaerobic metabolism
Essentially when you start producing more lactate than your body can clear.

VO2Max is the point that you hit maximal oxygen uptake and use.

Many people talk in a 5 zone model

Zone 1= Easy/barely elevated heart rate some times called recovery work
Zone 2= Endurance you can go for hours and still speak in full sentences
Zone 3= Moderately Hard/Sweet Spot Speaking starts to get hard but you still could go for a few hours but you'd still be tired the next day.
Zone 4= Threshold as described above but the practical definition is the effort you could do for one hour but you'd feel like dying.
Zone 5 VO2 Max= You can go about 4 minutes at this effort and maybe repeat with an adequate rest 2-5 times. These are brutal intervals.

Some people add a Zone 6 which is neuromuscular which are short powerful bursts of effort.

At least this is my understanding of the basic of zones etc.

 

[VikingMD]

The base of aerobic work is doing plenty of Zone 2 work. Some people will say 80% of a weeks volume. The remaining 20% is done at Zone 4 or Zone 5.

This approach is sometimes called polarized training because you spend time doing very easy and time doing very hard but not much in the middle.

A frequent error of many people who train for aerobic sports is they go too hard on their easy days and not hard enough on their hard days. This has been shown to increase risks of injury, can lead to over training and in general limits peoples ability to realize their maximum potential.

A pyramidal approach is ~50% Zone 2 ~30% Zone 3 and ~ 20% Zone 4/5. Some people feel that this might be better especially for time limited athletes.

 

[VikingMD]

Stephen Seiler is a Texas exercise physiologist who studied Norwegian cross country skiers. He found that a majority of world champions us 80% Zone 2 and 20% Zone 4/5. He called this polarized training.

The reason cross country skiers are interesting is because as group they may be the fittest athletes aerobically on the planet. For example in the top 5 VO2 Max ever measured in a lab a majority of them are cross country skiers. The top 3 put Lance Armstrong to shame even when he was doping.

 

[VikingMD]

I should have written this from the start. I am NOT an endurance coach or exercise physiologist but I have learned a thing or two.

 

[deadbeef]

I think zone 2 is overrated. It seems like the people pitching it are talking about pros doing 6-8 hours of it per week. I ain't got time for that. I do 1.5 - 2 hours per week. I don't think I've gotten any increase of vo2 max from it. It does help me maintain my vo2 max and definitely helps recovery.

For vo2 max training, I do 3 workouts per week on an assault bike that I alternate two different study backed workouts: Norwegian 4x4 and REHIT. Norwegian 4x4 is 4 minutes at 95% max HR followed by 3 minutes of active rest and repeated 4 times. REHIT is 20s all out followed by 3 minutes of active rest and repeated 3 times. Anyone who says they're doing 20/10 on an assault bike and the 20s is all out is full of shit. 20s all out is brutal. The first time I did it I could only do one and thought I was going to die. Even now, having done many of these workouts, during the third one my quads are burning and trying cramp up.

Doing the above I've been able to get my vo2 max to 50. Not elite by any means but excellent for my age (according to the internet). If I hit my goal of another 10 pounds of weight loss I should be around 55 vo2 max.