Estradiol control

mqsymth

New Member
Is there a difference between the Aromatase of T into E2(estradiol) between T
shots and T gels/cremes?

For instance some members, who are on T shots, recommend taking 0.25mg arimidex EOD or
every 3 days to keep E2 in the 20-30 range.

I'm on prescription T creme from LEF Rx Pharmacy 100mg T/day and I find that taking 0.25mg
Arimidex EOD or every three days stops my night/morn wood within 2 weeks. I am
now taking 0.25mg every week. I also take 50mg Zinc 2mg Copper every day and
400mg resveratrol every day so I don't know how much of an effect these vits
have in reducing aromatase of T into E2.

Anyone comments
 
Last edited:
Is there a difference between the Aromatase of T into E2(estradiol) between T
shots and T gels/cremes?

For instance some members, who are on T shots, recommend taking 0.25mg arimidex EOD or
every 3 days to keep E2 in the 20-30 range.

I'm on prescription T creme from LEF Rx Pharmacy 100mg T/day and I find that taking 0.25mg
Arimidex EOD or every three days stops my night/morn wood within 2 weeks. I am
now taking 0.25mg every week. I also take 50mg Zinc 2mg Copper every day and
400mg resveratrol every day so I don't know how much of an effect these vits
have in reducing aromatase of T into E2.

Anyone comments

generally there is more conversion with the gels than the shots. However, the proof is in the labs. Just continue to follow doctor's orders and get the labs. This takes the guess work out of the equation regardless of the supplements.
 
generally there is more conversion with the gels than the shots. However, the proof is in the labs. Just continue to follow doctor's orders and get the labs. This takes the guess work out of the equation regardless of the supplements.

if this is true and I know you speak the truth, why do MDs prefer to recommend gels to shots?

because shots involve needles? not really a problem

shots twice/week at most; gels every day and chance of exposure to others if gel hasn't dried.

what is the biggest downside of shots??????
 
if this is true and I know you speak the truth, why do MDs prefer to recommend gels to shots?

because shots involve needles? not really a problem

shots twice/week at most; gels every day and chance of exposure to others if gel hasn't dried.

what is the biggest downside of shots??????

I think it's because injectables are more likely to used as a steroid cycle. I've never heard of gels being used as a steroid cycle.

I don't think there are any downside to shots. I am on them and don't plan on ever going to gels.

Most MDs are just pussies when it comes to them not wanting to presribe injectables and it sucks when they don't want to give you what you want.
 
I would recomend gels first because of what Hardasnails says but there are problems starting on gels read this.
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Yes this happens a lot you start on a low starting dose 5 grams when your brain sees the testosterone in your blood even just a little it slows down even stops sending the LH and FSH message to your testis to make the Testosterone you were making. So lets say your labs for Total T were 350 you add this dose of gel your brain sees this and you lose the base level you had before the gel.

Now lets say you need more then 5 grams most do so now all your left with is what the gel is doing so lets say it's doing 200 so you lost 150.

The reason you feel good is your levels go up that 200 the gel is doing in the first 2 weeks so your levels go up to 550 in theory. The brain sees this and you fall back.

Why can this happen it might be how your putting on the gel with Androgel you need to spread it over your upper arms and shoulders and down your back as far as you can reach this is half of your dose then do the other side. Just spread it over the area but don't rub it in.

The other thing is it's not getting through your skin good so you need more. If you have a thyroid problem your skin will become thicker and gels and creams don't get through the skin and you need to switch to shots.

I tell men when they go on Gels to retest in 2 weeks because you can end up feeling worse. Most me just need more gel. Dr.'s that tell men to go on 5 grams of gel and come back in 8 to 12 weeks for labs don't know much about the use of gels. Dr.'s that treat a lot of men for low T on gels see this happen and test them again in 2 weeks.

Call your Dr. and tell him this and that your not feeling good you were but fell back.
==========================================================================
The following is what I tell men taking arimidex so they don't go to low.
=========================================================================
What I found is if you go to low taking arimidex, it's the length of time your to low, if your too low say for 8 weeks it can take your body a longer time to make more Estradiol. Bottom line is to know how not to go to low. Keep a log on your dose and how you feel men going to low can't get it up taking Viagra. I went to low when I first tried Arimidex and did not know about going to low or how one feels to low, so I was low a good 8 weeks. I did not know I was low until my next labs.

The best gage I have found to control your Estradiol levels is to gage your night time and morning wood. At good levels or what I call the sweet spot you get your night time and morning wood back so strong it will wake you up and you can hang a coat on it.

Most men do good taking .25 mgs or 1/4 of a 1mg. pill, I use a pill cutter to cut the small pill in half then I stand it on the cut end and use a single edge razor to cut this in half. A good way to take arimidex is by how high your levels are. I tested over 90 pg/ml so we tried doing .5 mgs every other day after 8 weeks my next set of labs showed it did not move below 90, test said >90. So we did .5 mgs. every day in about 2 weeks I got some strong night time and morning wood back after not having them for many yrs.

I kept doing this dose and in 8 weeks my next set of labs said <20 back in the day labs were like this they did not have to good labs we have today they could not read lower the 20. My Dr. told me this looks to low to stop taking the Arimidex. The one thing I noticed was my wood stopped and stopping the Arimidex my wood came back in about 7 weeks my next test at 8 weeks was 24 pg/ml. So we went back on the Arimidex but the Dr. told me to take .5 mgs every 3 days I was on this dose not a week and lost wood. This is when I figured out going to low you lose wood. And the longer your too low the longer it takes to get levels back up.

I stopped the arimidex right away and got my wood back in 4 days. I then after playing with the dose for a time found the best dose is .25mgs every 2 to 3 days.

So lets say your labs are less the 50 pg/ml if your take .5 mgs you can go down so dam fast your miss the sweet spot of your wood and go to low. It's best with lower levels 50 and under to do less Arimidex .25mgs every 2 days if later your lose wood when it comes back go to every 3 days.

I have found estradiol is the hardest hormone to control, it goes up or down from month to month some times I need .25mgs every 2 days other times I need .25mgs everyday most of the time I do well on every 3 days.

So between wood and labs I do great and so do most of the men I have told this to. I keep a log on how much I am taking and how I feel. Doing this and reading back in my log I was able to tell when I was going to high or to low my Dr. lets me dose my arimidex by how I feel.

Over the yrs. I have posted this story until I am blue in the face.
 
No one mentioned that Androgel costs $250/month compared to $100 for 5 months worth of Test Cypionate. My T labs came back at 440 so insurance does not pay for my HRT since I am only in the low end of normal. This is a MAJOR consideration between the 2 options.
 
your gels are going to aromitize to e2 alot less then injectable test because when gels go through the skin they covert to more dht then shots and dht has a anti-estrogenic effect.The only way to know if or how much adex you need is to test 6 weeks on the gels.
 
Is there a difference between the Aromatase of T into E2(estradiol) between T
shots and T gels/cremes?

For instance some members, who are on T shots, recommend taking 0.25mg arimidex EOD or
every 3 days to keep E2 in the 20-30 range.

I'm on prescription T creme from LEF Rx Pharmacy 100mg T/day and I find that taking 0.25mg
Arimidex EOD or every three days stops my night/morn wood within 2 weeks. I am
now taking 0.25mg every week. I also take 50mg Zinc 2mg Copper every day and
400mg resveratrol every day so I don't know how much of an effect these vits
have in reducing aromatase of T into E2.

Anyone comments

There can be some marked differences in E2 production between topical and injectable. Reinforcing HeadDocs post, the treatment should be based on labs and not the rote administration of an aromatase inhibitor. My recommendation is to discontinue the AI unless the E2 levels are above 50. If they are, arimidex dose should be starting at 0.25 mg QOD.

One might think that there is an increase of E2 with topical administration since aromatase is found in the skin an adipose tissue. I do not find this to be the case. I can hardly recall a single person with E2 concern using transdermal testosterone.

From your post, it appears you are using a compounded treatment. Following are the abstracts and links to the full-text articles dealing with both forms of administration (compounded and brand name).

I should note that the finding of increased E2 levels with injectable T esters is a relatively common occurrence, particularly when the dose is 200 mg/week or more. Of course, the time between injection ad testing is a consideration.

Swerdloff RS, Wang C, Cunningham G, et al. Long-Term Pharmacokinetics of Transdermal Testosterone Gel in Hypogonadal Men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000;85(12):4500-10.

Transdermal delivery of testosterone (T) represents an effective alternative to injectable androgens. Transdermal T patches normalize serum T levels and reverse the symptoms of androgen deficiency in hypogonadal men. However, the acceptance of the closed system T patches has been limited by skin irritation and/or lack of adherence. T gels have been proposed as delivery modes that minimize these problems. In this study we examined the pharmacokinetic profiles after 1, 30, 90, and 180 days of daily application of 2 doses of T gel (50 and 100 mg T in 5 and 10 g gel, delivering 5 and 10 mg T/day, respectively) and a permeation-enhanced T patch (2 patches delivering 5 mg T/day) in 227 hypogonadal men. This new 1% hydroalcoholic T gel formulation when applied to the upper arms, shoulders, and abdomen dried within a few minutes, and about 9-14% of the T applied was bioavailable. After 90 days of T gel treatment, the dose was titrated up (50 mg to 75 mg) or down (100 mg to 75 mg) if the preapplication serum T levels were outside the normal adult male range. Serum T rose rapidly into the normal adult male range on day 1 with the first T gel or patch application. Our previous study showed that steady state T levels were achieved 48-72 h after first application of the gel. The pharmacokinetic parameters for serum total and free T were very similar on days 30, 90, and 180 in all treatment groups. After repeated daily application of the T formulations for 180 days, the average serum T level over the 24-h sampling period (Cavg) was highest in the 100 mg T gel group (1.4- and 1.9-fold higher than the Cavg in the 50 mg T gel and T patch groups, respectively). Mean serum steady state T levels remained stable over the 180 days of T gel application. Upward dose adjustment from T gel 50 to 75 mg/day did not significantly increase the Cavg, whereas downward dose adjustment from 100 to 75 mg/day reduced serum T levels to the normal range for most patients. Serum free T levels paralleled those of serum total T, and the percent free T was not changed with transdermal T preparations. The serum dihydrotestosterone Cavg rose 1.3-fold above baseline after T patch application, but was more significantly increased by 3.6- and 4.6-fold with T gel 50 and 100 mg/day, respectively, resulting in a small, but significant, increase in the serum dihydrotestosterone/T ratios in the two T gel groups. Serum estradiol rose, and serum LH and FSH levels were suppressed proportionately with serum T in all study groups; serum sex hormone-binding globulin showed small decreases that were significant only in the 100 mg T gel group. We conclude that transdermal T gel application can efficiently and rapidly increase serum T and free T levels in hypogonadal men to within the normal range. Transdermal T gel provided flexibility in dosing with little skin irritation and a low discontinuation rate.


Cutter CB. Compounded percutaneous testosterone gel: use and effects in hypogonadal men. J Am Board Fam Pract 2001;14(1):22-32.

BACKGROUND: Current methods of testosterone replacement therapy are limited to fixed-dosage patches and depot injections. Neither of these methods provides ideal therapy because of the inflexibility of dosing and other nuisance problems associated with the patches and nonphysiologic hormone levels when depot injections are used. Testosterone gels offer the potential for convenience and ease of administration, as well as flexible dosing regimens, by means of a simple topical application. METHODS: Ten hypogonadal men were selected from the author's general practice, ranging in age from 44 to 77 years. Four of these men had newly diagnosed and 6 had preexisting hypogonadism. Patients were withdrawn from their previous hormone therapy (where applicable), and baseline laboratory studies were obtained for total testosterone, free testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, estradiol, luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, complete blood counts, lipid panels, and chemistry panels. The patients then started taking increasing dosages of the testosterone gel until physiologic levels of testosterone were realized or until the study period (6 weeks) was concluded. There was no blinding, and each patient served as his own control. Testosterone and free testosterone levels were monitored weekly, and estradiol and dihydrotestosterone less frequently. At the conclusion of the study, all the baseline laboratory tests were repeated. A questionnaire evaluating the psychosexual well-being of the patients was administered before and after the treatment period. RESULTS: The average total testosterone level rose from 136 ng/dL to 442.9 ng/dL (P < .001). Average free testosterone levels rose from 34.2 pg/mL to 120.3 pg/mL (P < .001). Average dihydrotestosterone levels rose from 20.5 to 199.2 ng/dL (P = .006). Average estradiol levels rose only slightly from 34.1 pg/mL to 40.0 pg/mL P = .191). Average total androgens (testosterone plus dihydrotestosterone) rose in all patients to therapeutic levels, from 149.3 ng/dL to 642.1 ng/dL (P = .001). The ratio of total androgen to estradiol rose from 5.1 to 17.1 (P < .002). Luteinizing hormone was suppressed in the 6 patients for whom meaningful data were available, and decreased on average from 5.66 to 1.10 mIU/mL (P = .005) Lipid effects were measured, and a 15% drop in all cholesterol fractions was noted (P < .005). Evaluation of the questionnaire showed considerable improvements in sexual function and overall well-being in all but 1 patient. No adverse effects or nuisance-problems were detected during the duration of the study. CONCLUSION: Topically applied testosterone gels are an effective and convenient means of hormone replacement in hypogonadal men.
 

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I think it's because injectables are more likely to used as a steroid cycle. I've never heard of gels being used as a steroid cycle.

I don't think there are any downside to shots. I am on them and don't plan on ever going to gels.

Most MDs are just pussies when it comes to them not wanting to presribe injectables and it sucks when they don't want to give you what you want.

NO the gels are more natural patterns of testosterone in your body then shots are more like that of an old man.
Unfortunately it is not just looking at e2 number but looking at muliple factors to correspond to patient symptoms.
When regulating e2 one needs to looks all these facts such as shbg and TT in relatioship to amount of e2 to properl assess e2 function. E2 over 50 is red flag for potential AI adminstration. When men go above e2 od 30 they tend to have issues so waiting till 50 they could be having symptoms for years with out proper intervention is not fair to the patient.

If shbg is low then e2 needs to be at the lower end if the symptoms correspond to elevated e2. I have several patients that have had levels of 30 with shbg <10 and when there e2 was lowered to 15-20 their symptoms mysterious disappear when nothing else is changed. I would correct that 50 to more <35 to error on the side of caution. If e2 is at 50 and person feels fine I would not mess with it. It all depends up the symptoms present could be those of higher e2 (lipids, insulin resistance, lack of morning woood, decreases libido, ect) when thyroid and adrenals are in proper check.
 
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why do MDs prefer to recommend gels to shots?

There are many reasons including the reason cited by HAN.

But don't overlook the obvious - Solvay Pharmaceuticals. I don't think it is unfair to say that they have aggressively educated/encouraged doctors to prescribe Androgel for TRT patients.

The pharmaceutical industry is, after all, a business.

The pharmaceutical giant Solvay Pharmaceuticals is unapologetic about its actions aimed at maintaining its monopoly on the phamaceutical testosterone gel Androgel (an anabolic-androgenic steroid). Solvay has bought off generic companies who planned to introduce inexpensive, generic versions of Androgel. The generic companies Watson Pharmaceuticals, Par Pharmaceutical, and Paddock Laboratories were prepared to offer a cheap generic testosterone gel as early as 2006 after the FDA granted Watson final approval for its generic product in January 2006. Solvay paid the generic companies a substantial amount of money to delay their entry into the generic Androgel marketplace until 2015.

The threat of generic competition would have decimated Solvays sales of Androgel; AndroGel has been their top-selling product with sales exceeding $300 million in 2006 and $400 million in 2007. Generic competition to Solvays flagship product Androgel could reduce the price of testosterone gel as much as 90% when compared to brand name Androgel. The payments to delay entry into the generic marketplace aka pay-for-delay settlements would be highly profitable for Solvay by extending brand name patent protection for several years. The windfall profits would come at the expense of consumers and federal taxpayers costing them billions of dollars


It you prefer the benefits of transdermal gels for TRT, compounding pharmacies can provide it much less expensively. Ask your doctor.
 
Ha - I was going to mention this as well. There is a LOT of pressure by the drug companies to prescribe Androgel. More than you want to know - almost coercion. The drug companies track how often doctors prescribe certain medications and hold them accountable. Why else would someone prescribe something that costs $250/month when a very close equivalent is $100 for 4-5 months? You won't get many doctors to admit that publicly, but I have a lot of doctor friends that will admit it in private. Fancy conferences, vacations, dinners, etc. all paid for by the drug companies to push the more expensive stuff.

Read Chapter 9 of How Doctors Think, by Jerome Groopman, MD (Mariner Books, 2008 - New Your Times Bestseller).
 
In all the yrs. I have been helping men on the forums I have found Compounded Creams or Gels to be the best to try first. But if one has a thyroid problem they skin can become thick and the gels and cream's don't get through the skin. I can't remember the name for this but if your having a problem on creams of gels getting your levels up this might be why. Some men start on the lower dose and this is a good way to start. But it's not good to have the poor guy on this 3 months before doing labs to see how he is doing. The start dose is enough to shut down LH and FSH so they can end up with lower then there base levels.

I tell men to get tested in 2 weeks to be sure this does not happen and I see this all the time men end up on 5 grams of gel with lower levels then they started. It's best to test in 2 weeks if levels are still low go up on the dose to 7.5 if he still is not feeling better go up to 10 grams.

I have men on gels that find after a time some after a yr. there levels fall off the gel stops working for them and they end up on shots.

I had this problem and my joints and muscle were dam sore on gels the T from the gels were on supporting them. When I switched to show my pain was better after the first shot and in time gone.

I have started doing my shot like Dr. Shippen does every 3 days this works great for men and keeps me leveled and holds down my E2 levels. When my E2 goes over 30 I get Panic Attacks and some bad ED problems.
 
This is what I tell me on Arimidex so they don't go to low.
==========================================================================
What I found is if you go to low taking arimidex, it's the length of time your to low, if your too low say for 8 weeks it can take your body a longer time to make more Estradiol. Bottom line is to know how not to go to low. Keep a log on your dose and how you feel men going to low can't get it up taking Viagra. I went to low when I first tried Arimidex and did not know about going to low or how one feels to low, so I was low a good 8 weeks. I did not know I was low until my next labs.

The best gage I have found to control your Estradiol levels is to gage your night time and morning wood. At good levels or what I call the sweet spot you get your night time and morning wood back so strong it will wake you up and you can hang a coat on it.

Most men do good taking .25 mgs or 1/4 of a 1mg. pill, I use a pill cutter to cut the small pill in half then I stand it on the cut end and use a single edge razor to cut this in half. A good way to take arimidex is by how high your levels are. I tested over 90 pg/ml so we tried doing .5 mgs every other day after 8 weeks my next set of labs showed it did not move below 90, test said >90. So we did .5 mgs. every day in about 2 weeks I got some strong night time and morning wood back after not having them for many yrs.

I kept doing this dose and in 8 weeks my next set of labs said <20 back in the day labs were like this they did not have to good labs we have today they could not read lower the 20. My Dr. told me this looks to low to stop taking the Arimidex. The one thing I noticed was my wood stopped and stopping the Arimidex my wood came back in about 7 weeks my next test at 8 weeks was 24 pg/ml. So we went back on the Arimidex but the Dr. told me to take .5 mgs every 3 days I was on this dose not a week and lost wood. This is when I figured out going to low you lose wood. And the longer your too low the longer it takes to get levels back up.

I stopped the arimidex right away and got my wood back in 4 days. I then after playing with the dose for a time found the best dose is .25mgs every 2 to 3 days.

So lets say your labs are less the 50 pg/ml if your take .5 mgs you can go down so dam fast your miss the sweet spot of your wood and go to low. It's best with lower levels 50 and under to do less Arimidex .25mgs every 2 days if later your lose wood when it comes back go to every 3 days.

I have found estradiol is the hardest hormone to control, it goes up or down from month to month some times I need .25mgs every 2 days other times I need .25mgs everyday most of the time I do well on every 3 days.

So between wood and labs I do great and so do most of the men I have told this to. I keep a log on how much I am taking and how I feel. Doing this and reading back in my log I was able to tell when I was going to high or to low my Dr. lets me dose my arimidex by how I feel.

Over the yrs. I have posted this story until I am blue in the face.
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And this is what one of the guys at Dr. John's forum dose with his Arimidex so he can take it everyday he gets is compounded.
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Most compounding pharmacies will require a prescription from a doctor, before they do this.

Once your prescription says "300 caps x 0.1mg" or "600 caps x 0.05mg" anastrozole "from 1 to 4 daily", (anastrozole = generic arimidex) then they will compound your arimidex, or generic anastrozole, and they will usually supply the arimidex as compounded into the caps you require.

My compounding pharmacist was prepared to allow me to supply the arimidex too. If you have several boxes of arimidex in your cupboard, then you may want to ask your pharmacist to do this for you.

If you don't have any arimidex stores, then just let the compounding pharmacy supply the whole lot.

###

A pack of 30 tabs of 1.0mg arimidex will give 300 caps at 0.1mg-per-cap, or 600 caps at 0.05mg-per-cap.

So if your pharmacy chooses to supply arimidex as opposed to generic anastrozole, then your pharmacy will most likely not agree to only charge you for a half-a-box of arimidex, and most likely they'll charge for a whole box, even if your prescription says 300 caps at 0.05mg-per-cap (total of 15mg)
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I tell men this that started on a low dose of gels.
=======================================================================
Yes this happens a lot you start on a low starting dose 5 grams when your brain sees the testosterone in your blood even just a little it slows down even stops sending the LH and FSH message to your testis to make the Testosterone you were making. So lets say your labs for Total T were 350 you add this dose of gel your brain sees this and you lose the base level you had before the gel.

Now lets say you need more then 5 grams most do so now all your left with is what the gel is doing so lets say it's doing 200 so you lost 150.

The reason you feel good is your levels go up that 200 the gel is doing in the first 2 weeks so your levels go up to 550 in theory. The brain sees this and you fall back.

Why can this happen it might be how your putting on the gel with Androgel you need to spread it over your upper arms and shoulders and down your back as far as you can reach this is half of your dose then do the other side. Just spread it over the area but don't rub it in.

The other thing is it's not getting through your skin good so you need more. If you have a thyroid problem your skin will become thicker and gels and creams don't get through the skin and you need to switch to shots.

I tell men when they go on Gels to retest in 2 weeks because you can end up feeling worse. Most me just need more gel. Dr.'s that tell men to go on 5 grams of gel and come back in 8 to 12 weeks for labs don't know much about the use of gels. Dr.'s that treat a lot of men for low T on gels see this happen and test them again in 2 weeks.

Call your Dr. and tell him this and that your not feeling good you were but fell back.
 
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