Ex pro endurance athlete here

[jimmy endurance]

Ex pro endurance athlete here.

Replacing T even to mid level will be a boost, since the more you train the more hormones shut down (Test, gh, T4). Iv'e seen doping develop over the years. One thing about TRT for endurance is the body is only getting one exaggerated benefit. On T all long distance athletes will go slower, but can train harder so come race day you're clear and loose the water leading up. HCG is a must for an endurance athlete on TRT. In fact now HCG/HMG is most beneficial for an endurance athlete. You. will stop the depletion of natural T this way.

EPO was simple until the better tests. Now the only one is Zeta variant with daily macrodosing IV. Similar with GH. Its still almost undetectable but there is concern of non pharma brands getting contaminated with GHRP which is very easy to detect.

T4 isn't banned and is a great aid to an endurance athlete if they are training hard enough.

There is a big discrepancy between a pro and as a very fit working athlete. This next part is dangerous, commonly used. Remember this is their job.

Traimcinalone (corticoid) 40mg IM deep glute will strip fat, excess muscle off for 4 weeks into a key event. A. therapeutic use form can be given, or just stating you are using a topical product.

Real AICAR is very expensive but is commonplace, even orally. GWs are a no go because of the testing. GW will give the biggest gains to those who are not at a good level. PPAR activation is most likely at its maximum so there is no more room to move up.

Insulin post workout is used to replenish carbohydrates ASAP.

Narcotic painkillers are used, a lot. Some are not even banned whatsoever. The same with sleep medication.

Much like all sports off season training mode and race mode will look very different. Off season more GH is used with higher T especially since this is the time strength and conditioning training is part of the training cycle.

It must be noted that weekly blood tests at that level mean you are able to adjust or is causing a health issue later

 

[Chips7]

Ex pro endurance athlete here.

Replacing T even to mid level will be a boost, since the more you train the more hormones shut down (Test, gh, T4). Iv'e seen doping develop over the years. One thing about TRT for endurance is the body is only getting one exaggerated benefit. On T all long distance athletes will go slower, but can train harder so come race day you're clear and loose the water leading up. HCG is a must for an endurance athlete on TRT. In fact now HCG/HMG is most beneficial for an endurance athlete. You. will stop the depletion of natural T this way.

EPO was simple until the better tests. Now the only one is Zeta variant with daily macrodosing IV. Similar with GH. Its still almost undetectable but there is concern of non pharma brands getting contaminated with GHRP which is very easy to detect.

T4 isn't banned and is a great aid to an endurance athlete if they are training hard enough.

There is a big discrepancy between a pro and as a very fit working athlete. This next part is dangerous, commonly used. Remember this is their job.

Traimcinalone (corticoid) 40mg IM deep glute will strip fat, excess muscle off for 4 weeks into a key event. A. therapeutic use form can be given, or just stating you are using a topical product.

Real AICAR is very expensive but is commonplace, even orally. GWs are a no go because of the testing. GW will give the biggest gains to those who are not at a good level. PPAR activation is most likely at its maximum so there is no more room to move up.

Insulin post workout is used to replenish carbohydrates ASAP.

Narcotic painkillers are used, a lot. Some are not even banned whatsoever. The same with sleep medication.

Much like all sports off season training mode and race mode will look very different. Off season more GH is used with higher T especially since this is the time strength and conditioning training is part of the training cycle.

It must be noted that weekly blood tests at that level mean you are able to adjust or is causing a health issue later

Hi thanks for sharing this information.

When you have a contest, your clearing everything and go HCG/HMG ? No more test at this time ?

What is the mechanism of T4 for boosting endurance ?

 

[Millard]

Ex pro endurance athlete here.

Replacing T even to mid level will be a boost, since the more you train the more hormones shut down (Test, gh, T4). Iv'e seen doping develop over the years. One thing about TRT for endurance is the body is only getting one exaggerated benefit. On T all long distance athletes will go slower, but can train harder so come race day you're clear and loose the water leading up. HCG is a must for an endurance athlete on TRT. In fact now HCG/HMG is most beneficial for an endurance athlete. You. will stop the depletion of natural T this way.

EPO was simple until the better tests. Now the only one is Zeta variant with daily macrodosing IV. Similar with GH. Its still almost undetectable but there is concern of non pharma brands getting contaminated with GHRP which is very easy to detect.

T4 isn't banned and is a great aid to an endurance athlete if they are training hard enough.

There is a big discrepancy between a pro and as a very fit working athlete. This next part is dangerous, commonly used. Remember this is their job.

Thank you for sharing this!

There's not a lot of open uncensored internet discussion on PEDs for endurance sports. There are quite a few athletes seeking such info that frequently end up on bodybuilding/powerlifting/strength forums looking for advice. But obviously well-meaning individuals try to apply what works for muscle size/strength to the demands/goals of endurance sports. It''s often bad advice with too many drugs and too high dosages.

Replacing T even to mid level will be a boost, since the more you train the more hormones shut down (Test, gh, T4).

I see therapeutic TRT as almost an essential harm reduction strategy for extreme endurance training.

The sport itself (extreme endurance training) is far more dangerous than the risks accompanying TRT. TRT makes the sports healthier. TRT ameliorates many of the risks associated with suppressed hormones.

Low T causes a myriad of health problems especially in older, masters endurance athletes. Ironically, cardiovascular problems are a concern.

I hope you stick around and continue to share your insight!

 

[I6JQdr06]

There's not a lot of open uncensored internet discussion on PEDs for endurance sports. There are quite a few athletes seeking such info that frequently end up on bodybuilding/powerlifting/strength forums looking for advice. But obviously well-meaning individuals try to apply what works for muscle size/strength to the demands/goals of endurance sports. It''s often bad advice with too many drugs and too high dosages.

Couldn’t agree more @Millard. I’m one of those people.

Over the past year my TRT dose has dropped from 280mg, to 200, to 175, and now 150. I’m still very much in the dark about how and what to cycle for maximising recovery while minimising weight gain, and how this would be planned around my periodised training. This is not due to a lack of time spent researching, just lack of available information.

The problem is that body builders don’t always realise that they’re not the only people to use PEDs (they’re just the only people to talk about it). They can sometimes get a little, how would one say it, cognitively dissonant when faced with athletes asking questions/proposing needs and use cases that differ from their own

I’d go as far as to advise sports people to avoid bodybuilding forums if they’re looking for harm reduction info on PEDs for athletic performance. Where should they go? I’ve actually no idea.

Traimcinalone (corticoid) 40mg IM deep glute will strip fat, excess muscle off for 4 weeks into a key event. A. therapeutic use form can be given, or just stating you are using a topical product.

@jimmy endurance thanks so
Much for the info. I’d love to hear more about corticosteroid use. Does corticosteroid use increase the chance of soft tissue injury while training? I understand they weaken tendons?

How is training adjusted during corticosteroid use? Would a normal ‘peak followed by taper’ protocol still be leveraged? What other PEDs would be used during this peak phase?

Are corticosteroids usually run alongside anabolics other than TRT?

Corticosteroids make you hungry, right? How is this dealt with if the aim is to lose body mass?

Sorry for all the questions. Your willingness to talk about this stuff isn’t encountered very often.

 

[animalwithin9]

I’d go as far as to advise sports people to avoid bodybuilding forums if they’re looking for harm reduction info on PEDs for athletic performance. Where should they go? I’ve actually no idea.

I wish you had an answer for this question. I do agree there is a lack of "space" for those seeking athletic performance compared to bodybuilding

 

[I6JQdr06]

Because so many people (coaches) make money out of being the only people in the know. And everyone’s pretending that widespread athletic doping doesn’t exist anyway

 

[Millard]

The problem is that body builders don’t always realise that they’re not the only people to use PEDs (they’re just the only people to talk about it). They can sometimes get a little, how would one say it, cognitively dissonant when faced with athletes asking questions/proposing needs and use cases that differ from their own

I’d go as far as to advise sports people to avoid bodybuilding forums if they’re looking for harm reduction info on PEDs for athletic performance. Where should they go? I’ve actually no idea.

I think there is definitely a need for this type of information for non-strength athletes using PEDs.

It's no secret that I hope to make MESO inclusive of harm reduction for EVERYONE who uses PEDs.

Many bodybuilders/powerlifters and other strength athletes are extremely knowledgeable about the PEDs themselves, side effect management, and other things that can contribute to harm reduction.

However, I concur when it comes to applications for endurance athletes, this is not there strength NPI.

Hopefully, we can see more guys like @amorgan90 and @jimmy endurance stop by and share some knowledge and experience.

 

[cyclist00]

I disagree with the first post a bit based on my own experience at a high level amateur and friends that were domestic pros. Water GAIN prior to an event due to enhanced glycogen loading made for extra matches to burn in a race. I've tried shedding water and glycogen to get as tiny as possible pre-race but wound up with cramps and fading power towards the end of events.

You can and absolutely WILL get busted for EPO, corticos, and especially test. Nobody even on the domestic pro teams have real doctors or doctors that supervise their doping, and unless you are able to pay someone to help you dope, guessing and hoping isn't a good plan. Got one of my buddies busted that way, lost his contract too.

I felt like test 48 hours before an event along with glycogen loading 24 hours before led to the best outcomes performance wise, even though it was risky. Come in a few pounds water logged with a ton of glycogen on-board and well rested, plus some of the CNS stimulation that comes from test, and I could throw down big power numbers on Saturday/Sunday.

I never used EPO, but my buddy that did had to iron load before hand and then had to buy his own crit spinner and measure it all the time and even drain his own blood to keep his HCT in check. He also experimented with corticos and found that he really like them, but they could also block his legs up sometimes and have a negative effect. I never used them.

I think the GLP-1 agonists have a HUGE appeal, as weight loss is key for endurance sports so long as you can maintain power output and recovery. Plus they are still legal to use. Would not surprise me if people are using this now.

AICAR was never used when my buddies were pros, none of us had any money anyway so even buying test and epo was expensive. HGH was a waste of money, nobody touched it in our circle.

Things like tamoxifen or clomid, or AI's were a waste too, though maybe there was something and it was just too small to notice. Two times I checked my test levels after taking tamoxifen, my test did go up, but my SHBG went up too and my free test never improved. Last time it went down LOL even though total test was up like 30%.

I'd love some more discussion on current trends in the endurance world, I've been out for a decade or more, but coming back to race masters now.

 

[hoogyboogy]

Ex pro endurance athlete here.

Replacing T even to mid level will be a boost, since the more you train the more hormones shut down (Test, gh, T4). Iv'e seen doping develop over the years. One thing about TRT for endurance is the body is only getting one exaggerated benefit. On T all long distance athletes will go slower, but can train harder so come race day you're clear and loose the water leading up. HCG is a must for an endurance athlete on TRT. In fact now HCG/HMG is most beneficial for an endurance athlete. You. will stop the depletion of natural T this way.

EPO was simple until the better tests. Now the only one is Zeta variant with daily macrodosing IV. Similar with GH. Its still almost undetectable but there is concern of non pharma brands getting contaminated with GHRP which is very easy to detect.

T4 isn't banned and is a great aid to an endurance athlete if they are training hard enough.

There is a big discrepancy between a pro and as a very fit working athlete. This next part is dangerous, commonly used. Remember this is their job.

Traimcinalone (corticoid) 40mg IM deep glute will strip fat, excess muscle off for 4 weeks into a key event. A. therapeutic use form can be given, or just stating you are using a topical product.

Real AICAR is very expensive but is commonplace, even orally. GWs are a no go because of the testing. GW will give the biggest gains to those who are not at a good level. PPAR activation is most likely at its maximum so there is no more room to move up.

Insulin post workout is used to replenish carbohydrates ASAP.

Narcotic painkillers are used, a lot. Some are not even banned whatsoever. The same with sleep medication.

Much like all sports off season training mode and race mode will look very different. Off season more GH is used with higher T especially since this is the time strength and conditioning training is part of the training cycle.

It must be noted that weekly blood tests at that level mean you are able to adjust or is causing a health issue later

You seem very knowledgeable and educated on doping in the endurance sport world. I am a female distance runner who focuses on the 1500/3k/5k. What kind of PED do you think I would see the most benefit from? I was thinking gh, but I heard it is bad for the heart. However, I heard it boosts recovery so that you can train harder more often. I was then thinking trt/nandrolone, but I am unsure. There is so little information about using peds to enhance performance in sports, so looking for some insight.

 

[speedyboi]

Ex pro endurance athlete here.

Replacing T even to mid level will be a boost, since the more you train the more hormones shut down (Test, gh, T4). Iv'e seen doping develop over the years. One thing about TRT for endurance is the body is only getting one exaggerated benefit. On T all long distance athletes will go slower, but can train harder so come race day you're clear and loose the water leading up. HCG is a must for an endurance athlete on TRT. In fact now HCG/HMG is most beneficial for an endurance athlete. You. will stop the depletion of natural T this way.

EPO was simple until the better tests. Now the only one is Zeta variant with daily macrodosing IV. Similar with GH. Its still almost undetectable but there is concern of non pharma brands getting contaminated with GHRP which is very easy to detect.

T4 isn't banned and is a great aid to an endurance athlete if they are training hard enough.

There is a big discrepancy between a pro and as a very fit working athlete. This next part is dangerous, commonly used. Remember this is their job.

Traimcinalone (corticoid) 40mg IM deep glute will strip fat, excess muscle off for 4 weeks into a key event. A. therapeutic use form can be given, or just stating you are using a topical product.

Real AICAR is very expensive but is commonplace, even orally. GWs are a no go because of the testing. GW will give the biggest gains to those who are not at a good level. PPAR activation is most likely at its maximum so there is no more room to move up.

Insulin post workout is used to replenish carbohydrates ASAP.

Narcotic painkillers are used, a lot. Some are not even banned whatsoever. The same with sleep medication.

Much like all sports off season training mode and race mode will look very different. Off season more GH is used with higher T especially since this is the time strength and conditioning training is part of the training cycle.

It must be noted that weekly blood tests at that level mean you are able to adjust or is causing a health issue later

Can you talk more about the benefits of HCG. I am a non-professional runner trying to cut down the last bits of time to earn my OTQ, I’m currently using EPO, HGH, and Test (I’ll be ending most of the products prior to my testing window before the CIM in December, and luckily am not subject to randomized doping control), but I hadn’t considered adding HCG to the mix.

 

[Alyk89]

@jimmy did you or your friends ever look at something like Proviron to lower SHBG?

 

[jimmy endurance]

Sorry for the absence. I will try and answer each question with a brutally truthful answer and a safe alternative. I am firstly lucky. I am in recovery from IV opioid addiction and if I wast so fit and vascular due to my training, I would have lost limbs and easily my life. The addiction was not just down to sport. I used tramadol at a very low dose for years, but you can't always control things in your personal life.

TESTING AND CLEANING OUT

Firstly testosterone is mainly an off season drug. You can miss 3 tests before you have to explain. The testing budget is low. If you base yourself somewhere expensive and logistically difficult for testers, after attempt 1 you have 2-3 weeks minimum to clear out. Easy with prop and some HCG to bring the T:E ratio within limits. Test during peak performance will make you feel heavy and actually slow you down.

T4

Vital for use with HGH. Hard training causes thyroid shutdown. This means you can keep T4 high normal to metabolise as much energy as possible. Its legal and doesn't change HR like T3

CORTICOSTEROIDS

For a normal person, yes. Weight gain. When you train 20-30hrs a week it cannibalises any tissue into energy, and the artificial stress gives you that strength like in a flight or fight situation. By any tissue, I mean every tissue. Fat, muscle, bone, tendon. Weight drops while you feel stronger and chronically stressed 24/7. Your immune system shuts down. 2006-2020 when it was at its peak you'd see riders break bones very easily due to its abuse. Common colds became pneumonia, many injuries. Triamcinolone (kenalog) in deep IM would last a month and should only be used once per year but as you can imagine, more was sometimes used, like dexamethasone IM, short acting before a hard single day race. Ever see a race favourite have a shocker of a day? Usually down to this, and the cortisone not being ridden into the legs the day prior.

Smaller pro teams don't need pre approval for cortisone use. This can be retroactive IF the rider gets tested which is rare.

GLP-1

Power on the bike in watts is based on kilojoules. The body is about 25% efficient so 1000kj = 1000 calories. 280w for 1 hour is about 1000 calories. GLP-1 will inhibit calorie replacement and refuelling due to its mechanism of action. A pro rider will burn 1000 calories an hour as an average (68-72kg) training 20-30 hrs per week. With that energy expenditure, if you cant reach a good race weight then something is wrong. Unless you are a pure climber, body weight is less important now due to advancements in aerodynamics and rolling resistance. There have been some interesting articles of pros gaining 5-10kg and improving in all areas. The more carbs you can metabolise the better. Not to mention GI distress with GLP-1s.

PROVIRON

Detection is easy and unpredictable. Mast prop is one of my personal favourites in the off season. 150T, 150PV and 5000iu HCG/week.

HCG

This will prevent testosterone getting too low. Because it increases production through the body's pathway, epitestosterone will be 1:1. I will try and find the study where one of the byproducts in this process can help with fat loss. You will get the benefits of endurance HRT (mid-high normal) without the heavy feeling in the legs. As for water and glycogen, if you are trained to world class level your glycogen storage capacity will be maxed out in both muscle and liver. 5g creatine per day is great for hydration and having a bit more phosphate for pure strength at the start of a sprint (1-3s). High doses (25g / day for 7 days) have also shown positive results in cognition, concussion and head injury healing.

HGH + INSULIN

HGH before bed 1-4iu is a game changer when you are training at your limit. It can add an extra day to a block, you'll recover better in a taper week but it needs to be cycled for a long time. Insulin post workout gets your recovery meal and any nutrition supplements into the damaged cells. Use a 24hr glucose monitor always. Dose and food are personal and the monitor will guide you.

TESTING

Testing for exotic or endogenous compounds is expensive. Some races at a very high level didn't test a single sample for EPO or rHGH. It's intel based. Ive done races where the teams have known whats being tested for prior. An amateur team who were all on epo and test were targeted for weeks. The caught 1 out of the 8 riders for.... masteron and primo. Taken for vanity reasons. A joke.

MODERN TRENDS

Since the tramadol ban, a stronger and cheaper version has taken over. Tapentadol. Oraly is 32% bioavalale and still blows tramadol out the water. Tramadol had limited recreation value whereas this one does. Tizanadine to relax constricted blood flow is common, plus baclofen and pain-o-soma at night to relax the muscle. This is actually really helpful after a crash since it stops twitching while asleep with heavy cuts and abrasions.

Injectable carnitine is popular now. Legal, safe and effective. It's the best thing for weight loss when risk/reward is added.

Oral AICAR during races. No one knows much apart from deep inside some teams. A dose is about $5000 per race.

Ketone esters. These have been around for a while but no one knew how to use them. The consensus now is a dose mixed with tart cherry extract immediately post race. Some evidence that this method can boost natural EPO production.

The sport is cleaner now at lower levels. A rider on a limited budget will gain more from aero testing, custom kit, wheel and tyre choice for the same price as a medical support.

MEASURMENTS AND AI

24hr glucose trackers while training is really helpful in nailing your carb and energy plan.

Taking a lactate finger prick test at set times during a training ride has become popular, I believe this technology will go the same way as the glucose monitors.

Haemoglobin monitors can be helpful if accurate enough.

Heat training. This is the next big thing in training and have seen the benefits myself. Currently the only sensor is a CORE but it's worth it. Blood plasma has some oxygen delivery capability. Not only will heat adaptation make a rider more resilient, it will create more plasma. More plasma means more oxygen and more fluid to dilute and remove metabolic waste.

Id recommend these over PEDs now. Suppliments work best on untrained people because the pathway is already maxed at world class level. Medicine is the opposite (apart from PPAR drugs). Bodybuilders who are very anaerobic and low aerobic describe GW like a 3rd lung. I have not heard any top athlete say it's done much. In fact its caused PPAR to be too dominant and take away capacity at high intensity/short duration (1-90 seconds)

A final note.

Doping is underwhelming. It's a 2-5% gain if everything else is perfect. For world class, this turns a finish into a result. Out of everything, the biggest difference I found was tramadol/tapentadol with paracetamol and caffeine. This will 99% chance of destroying your life.

Genetics

I was blessed with my genetics even though I was an average pro. My first piece of exercise after a year and a half estimated my FTP to be 3.8w/kg. I rode 160km the next day at 180w (70kg) and I feel fresh the next day. Im still vaping 20mg nicotine a day, but never drink alcohol. Be honest with yourself, go to a doctor and make your aim health. I would put money on it that this will give the best raw improvement. I drink kefir and pickled cabbage and beetroot daily and the change in gut health helped my mental health in a way I didn't think possible (serotonin is made in the gut). You don't have to be ripped to perform. Yes the top riders are lean, but many don't have that crazy body type. Its genetic.

Anymore questions, I will answer to the best of my knowledge. A bad crash and painkillers turned me from a paid athlete to spending 6 months in prison, 15 seizures needing intense care, and three cardiac events. My genetics saved my life.

 

[jimmy endurance]

I should also add that the opioids not only helped my legs, but made me feel invincible. I took so many risks on it. When addiction was creeping up, after one hospital stay I was actually happy, knowing I was going to get IV oxy, fentanyl or morphine on tap - being a private clinic. Sad existence

 

[Nidus]

Oral AICAR has about 5% Oral bio availability, so you might as well just inject 25mg right before the race. Can easily dissolve it in normal saline. The raws are fairly cheap too, ready vials cost about 60-80 USD for 50mg. Raws are like 10g for 200 USD.

Surprised that you did not mention Carnitine, MOTS-C or Actovegin or EPO pre-cursors, aren't more famous by now?

 

[rbc]

Very interesting insights - HCG makes sense for the T:E ratio, but does the effect carry over to the testing window by the time HCG clears out of the system? Or is the testing for HCG not sensitive enough for that to matter?
Curious as well about HIF-PHIs and other alternatives to EPO.
Great thread, very rare to get any inside takes on the open web.

 

[jimmy endurance]

Very interesting insights - HCG makes sense for the T:E ratio, but does the effect carry over to the testing window by the time HCG clears out of the system? Or is the testing for HCG not sensitive enough for that to matter?
Curious as well about HIF-PHIs and other alternatives to EPO.
Great thread, very rare to get any inside takes on the open web.

HCG is preset in the mail body anyway. Its biologically so similar and a proper normal range for a male is not well established

 

[rbc]

HCG is preset in the mail body anyway. Its biologically so similar and a proper normal range for a male is not well established

From the WADA documentation I have seen, the limit for an adverse finding is 5IU/L in urine, which gives a huge buffer relative to endogenous production in males, but I imagine if one were blasting 5000IU per week, that might exceed the threshold without allowing some time for clearance. From the test development documentation (Development of standardized methods for determinational of hCG in urine), it seems like the test itself is not very effective or consistent, so a low dose seems a fairly safe bet.
From personal experience 800iu weekly is a good minimum effective dose as an accompaniment to TRT without pushing E2 too high, though a higher dose would definitely push down the T:E ratio to a safer level.

 

[vulpes]

HCG is preset in the mail body anyway. Its biologically so similar and a proper normal range for a male is not well established

Thanks for all the great info. It is so rare anyone speaks out on the endurance side.

Could you elaborate on the length and timing of HCG cycles with regard to a main race and any PCT please? How long can you run it? when would you aim to start and stop it? Do you need to do anything after you stop it? Recommended dose bracket?

Also when would you run the off season TRT? Is it say 10 weeks ending 4 weeks before a targeted race?

Thanks

 

[Benf15harp]

lol. At all these “sports” that require this level of PED usage make less than your local Burger King manager unless you’re absolutely dominant. Seems a bit much. But carry on.

 

[vulpes]

lol. At all these “sports” that require this level of PED usage make less than your local Burger King manager unless you’re absolutely dominant. Seems a bit much. But carry on.

Money matters and respect to you for making it the hard way in sport. But when does the Burger King manager get to come home and say "Today I brought it all, I left it all and I did better than I have ever done". Most endurance athletes willingly took a pay cut just to live for this ambition.

Don't forget, there are guys taking PEDs just to like what they see in a mirror.