iris
Well-known Member
Cool.
Let's see if we can find something out about it and share it here.
I am not sure where this pumped up version comes from...
Cannot do it now but if I do not get back too late, tonight, I will have a quick search.
X
MESO-Rx
Anabolic Steroids
Improvement in Endurance training with peds
- Thread starter bossetti
- Start date
Cool.
Let's see if we can find something out about it and share it here.
I am not sure where this pumped up version comes from...
Cannot do it now but if I do not get back too late, tonight, I will have a quick search.
X
egruberman
Well-known Member
Some yea, others not so much.
bossetti
New Member
What do you suggest?
iris
Well-known Member
A quick look, I couldn't find many studies about this.
This is what Roche says:
www.fiercepharma.com
There are the usual mentions of cancer angiogenesis, somewhere else:
"We show here that pharmacological PPARβ/δ activation increases endothelial cell proliferation in vitro and intensifies tumor angiogenesis in vivo, enhancing tumor progression and metastases formation. Conditional vascular specific overexpression of PPARβ/δ also resulted in enhanced tumor angiogenesis, growth, and metastases formation, suggesting an endothelial cell- specific mechanism for PPARβ/δ function in tumor progression, independent from its contrasting effects on specific tumor cell types.".
One more, that contradicts this, with a bit of abstract below:
academic.oup.com
"Contradictory findings are also reported suggesting that PPARβ/δ ligands potentiate tumorigenesis by increasing cell proliferation, by inhibiting apoptosis through phosphorylation of Akt and by increasing cyclooxygenase-2 (COX2) and vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) expression. The contradictory findings could be due to differences in the model system (cancer cell line versus in vivo ), differences in cell culture conditions (with and without serum) or differences in ligands. The present study examined the effect of two different PPARβ/δ ligands (GW0742 and GW501516) in human cancer cell lines (HT29, HCT116, LS–174T, HepG2 and HuH7) cultured in the presence or absence of serum and compared in vitro analysis with in vivo analysis. Neither PPARβ/δ ligand increased cell growth or phosphorylation of Akt and no increase in the expression of VEGF or COX2 were detected in any cancer cell line in the presence or absence of serum. Similarly, liver, colon and colon polyps from mice administered these PPARβ/δ ligands in vivo did not exhibit changes in these markers. Results from these studies demonstrate that serum withdrawal and/or differences in ligands do not underlie the disparity in responses reported in the literature. The quantitative nature of the present findings are inconsistent with the hypothesis that cancer cell lines respond differentially as compared with normal cells, and provide further evidence that PPARβ/δ ligands do not potentiate tumorigenesis."
I suppose you are either in the camp that looks at the cancer data and regards it as flawed/irrelevant, or viceversa, so taking cardarine/cardarine+ is a no go (just in case).
Most of the sites I found this referenced in are the ones that are selling it.
I did not look at what Reddit says, since you told me that's where you found out about it.
There was someone saying cardarine plus dose is 10-15mg tops, I forgot where.
You will only be taking it for a few weeks, so you may be thinking that those rat studies are irrelevant for dose+length of administration, for your purposes.
Idk if you have actually taken it, before.
Does the guy coaching you know about this and/or has he had any input in your doping agenda, here?
This is what Roche says:
Progress in Cancer Research: Characterisation of a New PPAR β/δ Antagonist, GSK3787, with Roche’s xCELLigence System
PENZBERG, Germany--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- The peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors (PPAR α, β/δ and γ) are nuclear receptors that modulate transcription of regulatory pathways involved in diseases | PENZBERG, Germany--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- The peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors (PPAR α...
There are the usual mentions of cancer angiogenesis, somewhere else:
"We show here that pharmacological PPARβ/δ activation increases endothelial cell proliferation in vitro and intensifies tumor angiogenesis in vivo, enhancing tumor progression and metastases formation. Conditional vascular specific overexpression of PPARβ/δ also resulted in enhanced tumor angiogenesis, growth, and metastases formation, suggesting an endothelial cell- specific mechanism for PPARβ/δ function in tumor progression, independent from its contrasting effects on specific tumor cell types.".
One more, that contradicts this, with a bit of abstract below:
Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-β/δ (PPARβ/δ) ligands do not potentiate growth of human cancer cell lines
Abstract. Ligands for peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-β/δ (PPARβ/δ) increase skeletal muscle fatty acid catabolism, improve insulin sensitivity,
academic.oup.com
"Contradictory findings are also reported suggesting that PPARβ/δ ligands potentiate tumorigenesis by increasing cell proliferation, by inhibiting apoptosis through phosphorylation of Akt and by increasing cyclooxygenase-2 (COX2) and vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) expression. The contradictory findings could be due to differences in the model system (cancer cell line versus in vivo ), differences in cell culture conditions (with and without serum) or differences in ligands. The present study examined the effect of two different PPARβ/δ ligands (GW0742 and GW501516) in human cancer cell lines (HT29, HCT116, LS–174T, HepG2 and HuH7) cultured in the presence or absence of serum and compared in vitro analysis with in vivo analysis. Neither PPARβ/δ ligand increased cell growth or phosphorylation of Akt and no increase in the expression of VEGF or COX2 were detected in any cancer cell line in the presence or absence of serum. Similarly, liver, colon and colon polyps from mice administered these PPARβ/δ ligands in vivo did not exhibit changes in these markers. Results from these studies demonstrate that serum withdrawal and/or differences in ligands do not underlie the disparity in responses reported in the literature. The quantitative nature of the present findings are inconsistent with the hypothesis that cancer cell lines respond differentially as compared with normal cells, and provide further evidence that PPARβ/δ ligands do not potentiate tumorigenesis."
I suppose you are either in the camp that looks at the cancer data and regards it as flawed/irrelevant, or viceversa, so taking cardarine/cardarine+ is a no go (just in case).
Most of the sites I found this referenced in are the ones that are selling it.
I did not look at what Reddit says, since you told me that's where you found out about it.
There was someone saying cardarine plus dose is 10-15mg tops, I forgot where.
You will only be taking it for a few weeks, so you may be thinking that those rat studies are irrelevant for dose+length of administration, for your purposes.
Idk if you have actually taken it, before.
Does the guy coaching you know about this and/or has he had any input in your doping agenda, here?
UncleBuns
Well-known Member
I find the risk:reward for cardarine to be not worth it.
Any AAS above high normal TRT diminishes my endurance in a dose dependent manner. Higher test or AAS makes me stronger, recover faster, motivated, longer training sessions possible, reduces body fat. heavier, reduced mobility/flexibility, reduced endurance. Moderate high test or AAS can be successfully used during a strict training phase then drop to TRT well before performance phase to let esters clear and extra weight come off. Timing this will be different for each guy and depends on ester choice. If timed well you get the elevated training gains into the performance phase and the dropped weight. Be careful with blasting though as it is much easier to put on LBM so you can end heavier than you'd like. Doses for endurance athletes are MUCH lower than for body builders.
I'm in my 40's and GH is magic for sports performance. Same as AAS it adds weight with higher dose but greatly improves recovery. For performance I find 2 - 2.2iu a perfect balance. If you are young GH is likely unnecessary.
Any AAS above high normal TRT diminishes my endurance in a dose dependent manner. Higher test or AAS makes me stronger, recover faster, motivated, longer training sessions possible, reduces body fat. heavier, reduced mobility/flexibility, reduced endurance. Moderate high test or AAS can be successfully used during a strict training phase then drop to TRT well before performance phase to let esters clear and extra weight come off. Timing this will be different for each guy and depends on ester choice. If timed well you get the elevated training gains into the performance phase and the dropped weight. Be careful with blasting though as it is much easier to put on LBM so you can end heavier than you'd like. Doses for endurance athletes are MUCH lower than for body builders.
I'm in my 40's and GH is magic for sports performance. Same as AAS it adds weight with higher dose but greatly improves recovery. For performance I find 2 - 2.2iu a perfect balance. If you are young GH is likely unnecessary.
bossetti
New Member
No he dont know but im going to tell him soonA quick look, I couldn't find many studies about this.
This is what Roche says:
Progress in Cancer Research: Characterisation of a New PPAR β/δ Antagonist, GSK3787, with Roche’s xCELLigence System
PENZBERG, Germany--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- The peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors (PPAR α, β/δ and γ) are nuclear receptors that modulate transcription of regulatory pathways involved in diseases | PENZBERG, Germany--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- The peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors (PPAR α...
There are the usual mentions of cancer angiogenesis, somewhere else:
"We show here that pharmacological PPARβ/δ activation increases endothelial cell proliferation in vitro and intensifies tumor angiogenesis in vivo, enhancing tumor progression and metastases formation. Conditional vascular specific overexpression of PPARβ/δ also resulted in enhanced tumor angiogenesis, growth, and metastases formation, suggesting an endothelial cell- specific mechanism for PPARβ/δ function in tumor progression, independent from its contrasting effects on specific tumor cell types.".
One more, that contradicts this, with a bit of abstract below:
Peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-β/δ (PPARβ/δ) ligands do not potentiate growth of human cancer cell lines
Abstract. Ligands for peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor-β/δ (PPARβ/δ) increase skeletal muscle fatty acid catabolism, improve insulin sensitivity,
"Contradictory findings are also reported suggesting that PPARβ/δ ligands potentiate tumorigenesis by increasing cell proliferation, by inhibiting apoptosis through phosphorylation of Akt and by increasing cyclooxygenase-2 (COX2) and vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF) expression. The contradictory findings could be due to differences in the model system (cancer cell line versus in vivo ), differences in cell culture conditions (with and without serum) or differences in ligands. The present study examined the effect of two different PPARβ/δ ligands (GW0742 and GW501516) in human cancer cell lines (HT29, HCT116, LS–174T, HepG2 and HuH7) cultured in the presence or absence of serum and compared in vitro analysis with in vivo analysis. Neither PPARβ/δ ligand increased cell growth or phosphorylation of Akt and no increase in the expression of VEGF or COX2 were detected in any cancer cell line in the presence or absence of serum. Similarly, liver, colon and colon polyps from mice administered these PPARβ/δ ligands in vivo did not exhibit changes in these markers. Results from these studies demonstrate that serum withdrawal and/or differences in ligands do not underlie the disparity in responses reported in the literature. The quantitative nature of the present findings are inconsistent with the hypothesis that cancer cell lines respond differentially as compared with normal cells, and provide further evidence that PPARβ/δ ligands do not potentiate tumorigenesis."
I suppose you are either in the camp that looks at the cancer data and regards it as flawed/irrelevant, or viceversa, so taking cardarine/cardarine+ is a no go (just in case).
Most of the sites I found this referenced in are the ones that are selling it.
I did not look at what Reddit says, since you told me that's where you found out about it.
There was someone saying cardarine plus dose is 10-15mg tops, I forgot where.
You will only be taking it for a few weeks, so you may be thinking that those rat studies are irrelevant for dose+length of administration, for your purposes.
Idk if you have actually taken it, before.
Does the guy coaching you know about this and/or has he had any input in your doping agenda, here?
But i never tryed anithing before in completely Natural right now
Btw its Just Better to use normale cardarine in the end (more tested and a bit safer) maybe im going to add cardarine+ in the future
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Benf15harp
Well-known Member
Should probably stay that way
bossetti
New Member
Its more a curiosity , i like obviusly the performance gains but i want to know how much i can improve and make It pro
The only time i talked about It with my coach said that i would easily win National or at least top 3 if i improved the downhill
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Benf15harp
Well-known Member
As someone that’s been in professional sports for decades. The order that really matters:
1.skill/experience
2.mental
3. Physical/recovery
Also, if you can’t make it pro naturally, you aren’t gonna make it. Meds are to get to the top, not in the door.
bossetti
New Member
Mental Is pretty important, i underperform a lot in MOST races but when im fully relaxed im basically the best climber
But physical in Cycling Is the MOST important
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UncleBuns
Well-known Member
Tbol increasing endurance is a myth. It is a mild oral anabolic and doesn't have any unique improvement for endurance.
egruberman
Well-known Member
Given your total t, your age, and your test level, there's probably no need to mess with it and shut yourself down. Your natural GH production is also likely quite good.
Give the EPO a whirl if you must and see what it does to your power output. I'm dubious about the other compounds you listed, but I'll give it some consideration.
Benf15harp
Well-known Member
lol. GL. You’ll need it.
bossetti
New Member
Btw you was a pro right?
You have some TIPS to relax for a race /game ?
In the last races i feel pretty relaxed but in others i was pretty anxious, a bit of anxiety i know its normal but i want to try to manager It Better
Benf15harp
Well-known Member
Correct.
It’s completely normal to feel butterflies prior to an event. Once again, this is the skill/experience and mental aspects that will always supersede any physical performance. 99% of all athletes either lack skill/experience and/or the mental fortitude necessary to make it to or stay at the highest level. Everyone has elite fitness because that’s the easy part.
My advice would be
1. To compete as much as possible. With that you will become more relaxed and increase skill set.
2. Train/ride with others that have your ambitions
3. Find a retired pro cyclist or elite level coach that’s trained top pros(going to be pricey) to truly learn what is required
4. Don’t use peds for now.
5. Understand the need for rest. You cannot grow/get faster/get stronger/heal without rest.
It’s completely normal to feel butterflies prior to an event. Once again, this is the skill/experience and mental aspects that will always supersede any physical performance. 99% of all athletes either lack skill/experience and/or the mental fortitude necessary to make it to or stay at the highest level. Everyone has elite fitness because that’s the easy part.
My advice would be
1. To compete as much as possible. With that you will become more relaxed and increase skill set.
2. Train/ride with others that have your ambitions
3. Find a retired pro cyclist or elite level coach that’s trained top pros(going to be pricey) to truly learn what is required
4. Don’t use peds for now.
5. Understand the need for rest. You cannot grow/get faster/get stronger/heal without rest.
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bossetti
New Member
Yes i have to do more races probably and ride more in mountains to have more skills
The coach luckily Is world class if you want i pm the athletes Who train
Benf15harp
Well-known Member
bossetti
New Member
Thanks
bossetti
New Member
Everyone tells me in too obsessed about Watts and physical performance and i am shit at riding i have to improve that off course when i get my car license i can go much more to ride in mountains they arent too far
