Finally got my compounded testosterone gel!

[SPE]

Bump

Sorry, had to bump this. I know there are those of you out there with high DHT when applying the transdermals. Looks like applying it to a smaller area creates less DHT.

 

[SWALE]

I did not know that, but have given it a lot of thought. Thank you for the find!

This means it makes sense to have T gels compounded to higher concentrations, so less must be applied.

I would also expect the same to be true of estrogen conversion.

 

[SPE]

Exactly...

That is exactly what I'm thinking. I am actually going to switch from androgel 5g to a compounded PLO/Testosterone gel @ 100mg/ml tomorrow. I'm kind of excited to see the results.

 

[pmgamer18]

I was on a compounded cream from Collage Pharmacy I never had problems with high E2 but never had it tested. I did not have ED or trouble reaching an orgasm. I called Collage to find out how strong the compounded cream was as to the Testim 10 grams I was on. They told me that the compounded cream was 2 times as strong as the 10 grams of testim. I used this info to get off the gels and on the shots. When I was doing the cream I just put it on my fore arms both sides. I never has a rash and did not have panic attacks on the cream so I feel it is true doing the compounded cream keeps DHT and E2 down.
Phil

 

[GymJim]

A quick update on my progress on this compounded testosterone cream. I am using the 10% Testosterone carbopol based gel from Signature Labs. I squeeze out and slather on 1 mL each day usually on the side of my abdomen and upper arms. After ten or so days I was feeling a stronger libido and better erections and also a mental boost which continues, and after twenty days I have also been getting stronger lifting weights in the gym as well. So I am pretty happy so far. I haven't gotten new labs done yet but after thirty days I will get tested again.

 

[SPE]

Update on mine. I had started on androgel and my dht had gone higher than I would have like it to. I switched to a higher concentration(compounded CREAM @ 10%) and it SUCKED!!! I get my test results sometime this coming week, but I bet they were a good 2-300 points down from last time with androgel. I had two extra pump bottles of androgel and I started back on that again today. I feel ALOT better!

 

[pmgamer18]

Update on mine. I had started on androgel and my dht had gone higher than I would have like it to. I switched to a higher concentration(compounded CREAM @ 10%) and it SUCKED!!! I get my test results sometime this coming week, but I bet they were a good 2-300 points down from last time with androgel. I had two extra pump bottles of androgel and I started back on that again today. I feel ALOT better!

You might be better off going to shots every week and adding HCG.
Phil

 

[stat1951]

Update on mine. I had started on androgel and my dht had gone higher than I would have like it to. I switched to a higher concentration(compounded CREAM @ 10%) and it SUCKED!!! I get my test results sometime this coming week, but I bet they were a good 2-300 points down from last time with androgel. I had two extra pump bottles of androgel and I started back on that again today. I feel ALOT better!

Have read a number of sites where one of the concerns with compounded T products was with the quality control and also if their transdermal formula (depending on the formula used) was actually getting that much of the T across the skin barrier and into the dermal layers where it could then leach into the bloodstream.

I had a concern with AG in that it just didn't seem to be getting my levels that high. 7.5 grams was only a 375 and 10 grams was an even 500. So I switched to Testim (also 10 grams). Hasn't been a full month yet but I haven't felt anything different (other than Testim is a lot "stickier"!). I've got a feeling that I'm gonig to have to get up and see Dr John sooner that I had been planning on and get on the IM shots / Hcg protocol....

 

[GymJim]

Update on mine. I had started on androgel and my dht had gone higher than I would have like it to. I switched to a higher concentration(compounded CREAM @ 10%) and it SUCKED!!! !

I am surprised to hear that, guess it's different for everyone. I just passed the thirty day mark on 10% tesosterone gel and although I haven't gotten new labs yet to see what the testosterone levels in my body are, I can say that my libido has been through the roof for most of this whole month. I haven't tried Androgel or Testim or shots or hcg to compare it to, but this stuff seems to be working well for me. My strength is up in the gym too, and I keep pushing myself and getting stronger, in between recovering from nagging forearm pain and elbow tendonitis and the rib injury I sustained recently.

 

[mfiver]

great study SPE, thanks

1 did 1 month with 1/2 gram of 10% TestoCreme on the scrotum and T levels increased from 163 to only 224, while DHT rose to 175 (no baseline). Doc doubled the dose and moved the application site to my ribs. After 2 weeks on 1gm/day of 10% TestoCreme applied to my rib area (both sides, total about 30 square inches), my T levels shot up from 250 to 1242 while DHT increased slightly from 175 to 242. That 242 level is just under what the guys in SPE's quoted study above were getting (converted to nm/dl by dividing by .0347) with the multi area application.

Now I remember that Dr. Kryger suggested that the application area should be the size of a Coke Can (about 15 square inches). I was applying it to an area 2x that size.

The 1242 T level is 10% higher than Dr. Kryger's target upper limit for me (1100) but the DHT is further past his upper limit of 155. I'm going to half the surface are of application and slightly decrease the dose by 10%. That should drop the DHT level by 40% I get the 1/3 DHT reduction like they did in the study and compound that with a 10% reduction in cream. My labs should read 1100 and 145 for T and DHT respectively on this new application protocol. I'll report in a few weeks.

Estradiol levels are unchanged from original baseline at 31.

 

[SPE]

How did you feel on it?

 

[1cc]

Here are some more studies that seem to suggest that a smaller application area for Testosterone Gel/Cream should lead to lower DHT and Estrogen conversion.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/8/3821#R18
When transdermal T gels are applied to a large area of skin, higher serum DHT/T ratios have been reported, although the increase is considered not to be clinically significant (20, 21). This may be due to the presence of 5- -reductase in the skin that may result in greater conversion of T to DHT and the larger skin area that is exposed to the gel on administration, compared with other topical formulations, or to TBS (18, 19).


http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/12/4500?ijkey=fbc586e699ade2bb6a96e32e759418c23053cb5e
T gel application resulted in mean serum DHT that tripled after application of 50 mg T gel and rose nearly 5-fold with 100 mg T gel treatment. As 5 -reductase is present in nongenital skin (25), the increase in DHT/T ratios in the 100 and 50 mg gel groups could be explained by the higher conversion in the skin of T to DHT as a result of the large area of skin surface exposed to T in the gel groups compared with the very small area of skin exposed to the T patch.

 

[1cc]

Gel/Cream application site

Some doctors recommend applying T cream to the thin skin at inner bicep area. I was just wondering if the amount of fat under the skin determines how long the T release will be. For example, Androgel should be applied on the shoulders and outer upper arms. The skin in that area acts as a reservoir and releases T over 24 hours. That area of skin is fatty. Would the timed release of T be different if it were applied to the thin skin at inner bicep area?

 

[SPE]

I'm still on a compounded T cream. After being on .5ml 10% for a while and not feeling great, I finally was tested. Total T was 616(241-827). SO, I upped it to 1ml/day for a month. Tested again and total t was 1687, twice the normal range. Now I'm back down to .6ml/day and feel good. For me, it's much more a matter of absorption rather than how controlled the delivery is. I've HEARD that using a PLO base can cause it to be absorbed too rapidly, but I haven't had that issues with either androgel or the t cream.

 

[stat1951]

Some doctors recommend applying T cream to the thin skin at inner bicep area. I was just wondering if the amount of fat under the skin determines how long the T release will be. For example, Androgel should be applied on the shoulders and outer upper arms. The skin in that area acts as a reservoir and releases T over 24 hours. That area of skin is fatty. Would the timed release of T be different if it were applied to the thin skin at inner bicep area?

That would seem to only make sense, that a transdermal T gel (or cream) applied to thin skin areas where there's minimal subsurface dermal layers would therefore have the containd T reach the bloodstream much quicker (and likely in higher initial concentrations?)....

I had a salesman from a compounding pharmacy make a point of telling me that their transdermal product should be rubbed into the inner arm area opposite the elbow, the insides of the wrist, and the inner thighs near the crotch as "the skin is much thinner there and the testosterone will get into the bloodstream quicker".

I asked him if he knew that the half-life of testosterone (once it actually gets into the bloodstream) is roughly 70 minutes or so.

There was a long pause and he then said that it was usually best to apply their product twice a day (at the full strength of course).

So I said, okay, I apply at 8 AM and get a good burst of T activity from 8 AM to 10 AM, maybe even Noon - and then a big drop off until my next application at 4 PM when I get a good burst of T activity from 4 PM until 6 PM, maybe 8 PM... and then another big drop off until 8 AM the next day???

I asked him if he didn't think that using the subsurface transdermal layers to "hold" the applied testosterone and leach it into the system steadily and evenly didn't make more sense as it allowed the body to attain a more even steady state and eliminate spikes of blood level testosterone that would be more likely to elevate estradiol and raise SHBG, etc.? After another long pause he then told me that this action (what I just cited in the above paragraph) "described the body's own normal testosterone daily cycling".

I thanked him for his time and moved on.

Larry

 

[1cc]

Dr. Phillip Miller the writer of "The Life Extension Revolution" has one of his patients in the book apply 50mg of T Cream once a day to the "thin skin on his inner arm in the morning".

 

[SPE]

Next time I'll go in for blood tests I'll get tested 24 hours after my last application. We'll see if there are any differences.

 

[1cc]

Next time I'll go in for blood tests I'll get tested 24 hours after my last application. We'll see if there are any differences.

Where do you apply your gel SPE?

 

[stat1951]

Dr. Phillip Miller the writer of "The Life Extension Revolution" has one of his patients in the book apply 50mg of T Cream once a day to the "thin skin on his inner arm in the morning".

Located that book through our intra-library system and just ordered it. Does he indicate just the one dose application (i.e., not one in the morning and another one in late afternoon / early evening)? I'm assuming that he's talking a compounded product here rather than AndroGel or Testim... but a 50 mg dose would be the strength equivalent of 5 grams of AndroGel or 5 grams of Testim. Of course with transdermals that are compounded, there's always the question of

Also does he address issues (with the T cream) like as relates to absorbability, concerns with transfer of substance to skin on contact with others, whether the T maintains a steady state blood level through the day, etc.? Does he also adress other forms of TRT such as IM shots, application of HcG, etc?

I have been looking into half-lives of not only testosterone but also other hormones (DHEA, Preg, etc.), looking into it from the perspective of whether or not different dosings might be more appropriate to maintain those steady state applications.

Just as a quick example...

At one point in time the "gold standard" for TRT was considered to be 500 mg of Test Cyp (etc.) given once a month (or once every four weeks). Of course with the involved half-life of the injected T, there were all kinds of problems with that form of TRT. And yet that form of TRT persisted for years (decades?) before medical authorities finally started looking at improvements via advanced TRT protocols (using compounded transdermal products, developing commercial daily transdermals like AG and Testim, switching IM shots to a protocol of first 200 mg of Test Cyp every other week and then adjusting it again to 100 mg of Test Cyp weekly, addition of HcG to TRT protocols, etc.).... But the fact is that for a long time the standard protocol was that lowly form of 400 mg IM once a month.

Anyway, thanks for the info on the book.

Larry

 

[stat1951]

Dr. Phillip Miller the writer of "The Life Extension Revolution" has one of his patients in the book apply 50mg of T Cream once a day to the "thin skin on his inner arm in the morning".

Some info on Dr. Philip Lee Miller (Philip with one "L"):

http://www.antiaging.org/who.html

Larry