For Those Of You Who Are Wild About Zinc

[SWALE]

That is a very nice article. However, this statement:

"Progesterone. Topical natural progesterone is converted in males into testosterone without any feminizing side effects."

...does not belong there.

Also, there is no evidence that supplementing GH increases the risk of cancer. In fact, quite the opposite is true, IMPO. The elevated IGF-1 levels associated with increased cancer risk occur in those without a commensurate high IGFBP-3 production.

I was not aware that human and bovine IGF-1 are identical.

 

[marianco]

I did not know DIM inhibits 5-AR, or chrysin.

In doing a MedLine search on DIM/diindoylmethane and Reductase, 33 articles in the medical literature were found. None discussed whether or not DIM inhibits 5-alpha-reductase.

Thus, given the lack of credible evidence, I don't think DIM inhibits 5-alpha reductase.

DIM does inhibit cytochrome P450 1A1 and 1A2, which are involved in converting estrogens to other growth promoting estrogens, some of which may increase the risk of cancer. Blocking them forces estrogens to go through other conversion pathways to weaker, non-growth promoting estrogens - which are thought to be safer.

 

[pmgamer18]

In doing a MedLine search on DIM/diindoylmethane and Reductase, 33 articles in the medical literature were found. None discussed whether or not DIM inhibits 5-alpha-reductase.

Thus, given the lack of credible evidence, I don't think DIM inhibits 5-alpha reductase.

DIM does inhibit cytochrome P450 1A1 and 1A2, which are involved in converting estrogens to other growth promoting estrogens, some of which may increase the risk of cancer. Blocking them forces estrogens to go through other conversion pathways to weaker, non-growth promoting estrogens - which are thought to be safer.

I have a Estrogen problem and need my Total and Free T levels on the high side. So my Dr. has me do both Indolplex/DIM and .5 mgs. of Arimidex a day is this bad. It is keeping my E2 in check and I feel it is a small price to pay having high E2 and feeling this good. I have never felt this good in the 21 yrs. on TRT.

 

[marianco]

I have a Estrogen problem and need my Total and Free T levels on the high side. So my Dr. has me do both Indolplex/DIM and .5 mgs. of Arimidex a day is this bad. It is keeping my E2 in check and I feel it is a small price to pay having high E2 and feeling this good. I have never felt this good in the 21 yrs. on TRT.

I wonder if the DIM is redundant since Arimidex itself can reduce the production of E2 significantly.

Would you tell us your Free and Total Testosterone and Estradiol levels to help us understand how you can feel so good? Thanks. I wonder if there is an ideal testosterone to estrogen ratio.

 

[pmgamer18]

I wonder if the DIM is redundant since Arimidex itself can reduce the production of E2 significantly.

Would you tell us your Free and Total Testosterone and Estradiol levels to help us understand how you can feel so good? Thanks. I wonder if there is an ideal testosterone to estrogen ratio.

On my last test we did a 4-OHE test and it was done wrong so I don't have a E2 test on my last test. But my Total T was 900 range is 262 to 1593 ng/dL and Free T was 22.6 range 8.8 to 27 pm/mL. By the way I feel I would say my E2 is about 20 to 25. I can tell when it is to low or to high. I will be seeing my Dr. on the 3rd next month and will post the results hear. I am hoping my DHT came down was over 2200 on test before last. Range 36 to 573 pg/mL.

 

[SWALE]

All androgen and estrogen levels require consideration independently. T/E ratio is, IMPO, more an explanation for the effects of possible estrogen dominance, and system performance, rather than an actual treatment goal.

I have read a couple of studies showing DIM--under the specific laboratory conditions given--also increases activity of CYP1B1, which would tend to also elevate the very dangerous 4-OHE. DIM has also been shown to increase total estrogens, which would put it in opposition to the effects of an AI.

 

[The_Skeptic]

I have read a couple of studies showing DIM--under the specific laboratory conditions given--also increases activity of CYP1B1, which would tend to also elevate the very dangerous 4-OHE. DIM has also been shown to increase total estrogens, which would put it in opposition to the effects of an AI.

Now I'm confused. I thought DIM reduced or block estrogen, not increase it. What are CYP1B1 and 4-OHE?

 

[ciobl]

cyp1b1 is a polypeptide steroid hormone of the P450 system, the old name...the p450 syst. the one that takes care and washes the liver and gets rid of wasteful chemicals, etc...and ohe is hydroxyestradiol....

wanted to direct you to a website explaining such thing with an easier layman's terms but can't find one

 

[1cc]

I did not know DIM inhibits 5-AR, or chrysin.

Sorry, for DIM I used the wrong term. DIM is an antiandrogen, which means it binds to the androgen receptor. It is supposed to act similar to the drug Casodex. If this is the case, then it is probably not selective as to whether it binds to only androgen receptors in cancer cells or elsewhere. I personally am not very enthusiastic about using anything that lowers DHT. This is a thread on the subject https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134236533

For Chrysin, I have read a bunch of places on the net that sell the product that claim that it is an AI as well as that it lowers DHT. I wish there was a study on Chrysin showing what it does.

 

[pmgamer18]

I tried Chrysin and it did nothing for my high E2 and I tried 3 brands of DIM that also did nothing. The only thing that works for me is Arimidex and Indolplex/DIM. As for 4-OHE I tried to get it tested and there was no test for it my lab called all over the country and one lab said they would test it when the Test came back they did not test 4-OHE they tested 2-OH Estrogen and 16 ALPHA-OHE1. The result was no range for men and just a graf or bell curve. So I still take Indolplex/DIM and this is not the same as pain DIM with a .5 mg of Arimidex to keep my E2 in check. The Arimidex blocks E2 and the Indolplex/DIM converts E2 to good E's so they say.

 

[Sunkist]

Most studies I have read on chrysin say it works great in the tube, not in the body. The trick seems to be bioavailability. There is some quasi study stuff that shows that it needs to be ingested with fats to be more available. I personally make my own transdermal as well as oral. It does have some other side effect that are positive even if it does nothing with T.

I am aware I have no way of testing its efficacy, except that my levels are maintained. Still, with many other suppliments I take it may well be doing nothing.

My thoughts as always are that what I ingest or TC needs to be natural, or a substance found in nature someplace.

Seems that it is like GABA. Tests show it can't get into the brain, but many of us take it anyway. I think the term is an 'influence' substance in that case.

 

[pmgamer18]

Most studies I have read on chrysin say it works great in the tube, not in the body. The trick seems to be bioavailability. There is some quasi study stuff that shows that it needs to be ingested with fats to be more available. I personally make my own transdermal as well as oral. It does have some other side effect that are positive even if it does nothing with T.

I am aware I have no way of testing its efficacy, except that my levels are maintained. Still, with many other suppliments I take it may well be doing nothing.

My thoughts as always are that what I ingest or TC needs to be natural, or a substance found in nature someplace.

Seems that it is like GABA. Tests show it can't get into the brain, but many of us take it anyway. I think the term is an 'influence' substance in that case.

I have talked to men doing DIM not Indolplex/DIM and to get it to work they opened the cap and mixed the DIM with OIL any good one and took it and it worked. So the oil helped it from getting ingested. So this could be why the chrysin did not work for me. Here is a link I have that is a dam good read on Herbs.
http://www.geocities.com/bill3320/hormones.html
After reading what David Z said about L-Arginine and the other posts on using DHEA I stopped using them 5 days ago and my E2 has settled down so much that I am not doing .5mgs. of Arimidex everyday stopped 3 days ago. All I am taking is the Indolplex/DIM one tablet a day. So far all is good.

 

[SPE]

Hey Phil, in the link you provided it says that anti-e's will pump up DHT levels. Given your past dosage of arimidex, I think that could have been part of your DHT problem.

 

[pmgamer18]

Hey Phil, in the link you provided it says that anti-e's will pump up DHT levels. Given your past dosage of arimidex, I think that could have been part of your DHT problem.

Is this the part your talking about.
If you really want to know what symptom is caused by DHT then use a high dose of anti-aromatase for about 3 days which will artificially pump up the DHT.
I stopped using Maca and look what he says on it.
-Maca Root: This Peruvian herb (vegetable) is said to increase the testosterone level by stimulating production via the pituitary gland but more modern thinking is that it blocks SHBG thereby increasing free T and increases dopamine due to its high concentration of L-dopa. It seems to lower the DHT level and is a substitute for saw palmetto. It is a prolactin inhibitor.
See it is good to have some other input on articles. I read this 2 yrs. ago and did not have DHT problems then now I am going to go over this with a fine tooth comb. I have been back on Saw Palmetto for the last 6 weeks I see my Dr. in two days so we will see if my DHT came down. I hope some of the Dr.'s here read this link and give us some input on it

 

[SPE]

Interesting about the maca and DHT. Here is a link to a good interview done by Mary Shomon, who knows a ton about hormones, especially about thyroid function. The doctor she interviews warns about TOO MUCH maca for men. I guess it's known to have the opposite effect when men take too much. Nonetheless, I find maca exciting and think I'll go buy some.

http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/viana-muller-herbs.htm

 

[pmgamer18]

Interesting about the maca and DHT. Here is a link to a good interview done by Mary Shomon, who knows a ton about hormones, especially about thyroid function. The doctor she interviews warns about TOO MUCH maca for men. I guess it's known to have the opposite effect when men take too much. Nonetheless, I find maca exciting and think I'll go buy some.

http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/viana-muller-herbs.htm

At this group a lot of men that take Maca started a file in the files section on how maca was keeping there BP down.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alt-Support-Impotence-ASI/
A dam good link I put it in my files but we are on TRT and most take Zinc and keep are E's in check. Here is a cut & paste on Maca how to take it.

To: hypogonadism2@yahoogroups.com
From: "invest99_2000" <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 00:09:39 -0000
Subject: [Hypogonadism] Re: Raising below normal free T with nettle root extract



The following is some info I sent someone recently. Maca was shown
not to increase T in scientific experiments.


Maca stimulates the adrenals to produce it's own cortisol and DHEA
and probably a few other hormones as well. Since Maca is a food, it
has to be taken in much larger doses than what is recommended on some
products found in Health Food stores. I was doing great on 3
compacted level teaspoons(using a measuring teaspoon), which is the
approximate dose that most people find benefit at. Maca is expensive
at this dosage if purchased from a health food store and so it is
best to purchase it in bulk 1kg packages, which actually turns out to
be quite cheap.

This is a website by a lady that uses Maca and she provides good
information and dosing instructions as well:
http://allaboutmaca.dreamstation.com/

This website sells Maca in bulk at the best prices I've seen:
http://www.therootofthematter.ca/cgi-bin/itsmy/go.exe?
page=1&domain=12&webdir=therootofthematter

The following is an excerpt from a doctor that personally uses Maca
for adrenal function:

"Henry Campanile, MD., offers Adrenal Balancing Maca root
In keeping with its mode of acting through the hypothalamus and
pituitary, maca has a balancing and nourishing effect on the adrenal
glands. Henry Campanile, MD, a 50-year old specialist in internal and
family/complementary medicine practising in Florida states: "I happen
to have been born with only one adrenal gland just like my father. I
started taking cortisone in my late twenties to relieve the fatigue
which I was already feeling. Knowing the dangers of long term
cortisone use, I looked around for an alternative, and this
circumstance is what got me interested in complementary medicine. I
started using pregnenelone about 10 years ago and it has been fairly
satisfactory. But one of my patients told me about Maca and I started
taking it about a month ago.

It is phenomenal! I haven't felt this good since I was 20 years old.
I have so much energy and look so well, my patients have remarked on
it and told me how rested I seem. I've got so much energy now, that
I've started an exercise program". After trying it on himself, Dr
Campanile began using maca with his patients. My first patient to
take maca capsules was experiencing hot flashes and other menopausal
symptoms. She started feeling much better after using this herb for
only four days. I'm also employing it with patients who have a low
adrenal function." "

The following are informational links for Maca:

http://www.imperialgoldmaca.com/nutritional_value.htm
http://www.medicine-plants.com/articles/145/
http://health.discovery.com/centers/sex/libido/maca.html
http://www.rain-tree.com/maca.htm
http://www.maca-miracle.com/maca_composition.html
http://www.macaroot.com/science/hormone.html

I hope this helps. Feel free to ask should you have any questions,
I'd be glad to help.

George

 

[innermusic]

Just a note to say that my T levels improved a whole bunch when I started supplementing 50 mg Zn picolinate (stacked with 3 mg Cu and 500 mg Vit C) every evening. But these great results could have been due to the fact that I'm vegetarian and would tend toward low dietary Zn anyway.

 

[AndrogenicBodyBuilder]

prostate

If you are taking a multi vitamin and eating a good diet, you are certainly getting enough zinc.

I guess I'll get prostate cancer then.

 

[BRICK]

I have noticed much deeper, restfull sleep when using ZMA. I also don't need as much sleep. So I do believe it works wonders for rest and recovery.

 

[Ruper]

I have noticed much deeper, restfull sleep when using ZMA. I also don't need as much sleep. So I do believe it works wonders for rest and recovery.

I've noticed the same just taking Magnesium and Zinc in the evening on an empty-ish stomach, then taking my regular multi with my last pre-bed meal.

I don't tent to feel the effects of 'suppliments', but this combo definitely makes a difference to my depth of sleep.