For those of you who don't want to to run more than TRT testosterone levels, how do you cycle?

[Zmitmex]

I should check this out. Might answer my questions.

Im assuming the 'TRT' these guys are talking about is with the main intent of buidling muscle?

The guys I mentioned are trying to help men with ALL side effects of low testosterone, not focusing on the muscle building alone (but definitely part of the equation). Don’t want to get in trouble with linking the the video (am I allowed to do that? I got banned on another forum because I asked about a specific brand I ordered, just being cautious because you guys are amazing here.)

The video is titled This Is The Real Reason Your TRT Isn’t working. Super good episode with Jason Ferruggia. Should answer a lot of your TRT related questions.

 

[jtmarlin]

100mg/week seems low to me for TRT. Dave Lee talks about optimizing your dose (IE finding the top dose that doesn’t produce side effects). But he and the guy over at Cortex labs have said some guys need as high as 300mg/wk (rare but many in the 250mg/wk range) to get the same as some guys get from 150-200mg. Not saying 100mg isn’t the right call but I’ve been working on getting my dose right with Dave’s help and I’ve settled into 250mg/wk to resolve symptoms (not cycle).

Muscle is packing on finally (life long strength athlete and shit gains to show for it). More so than that though is that my mental health is back and I feel healthier than ever. I would like to try replacement levels of HGH but haven’t gotten there.

All that to say I would keep everything the same and play with the test dosage. Dave’s made the point that if you’ve optimized your TRT dose you won’t really be craving more androgens in any form since you’re at the edges of what your body can productively use without disrupting other systems (that was in his interview with Dave Tate from EliteFTS if you’re curious to watch).

I have tried it so many ways for so.many years TRT. I have really low SHBG (doesnt matter how in inject I have done it weekly, daily twice a week) and my free t at trough on 140 was 30. I also could not keep my BP under 130. I have done 30mg per day, 200mg per week, 20mg per day, 80mg e3.5 day, 70mg e3.5d, every combo of HCG and adex you can think of. I have been doing this for over half a decade. What I have seen in the TRT space for men who more interested in replacement vs how much they can get away with as "optimization" is that the first camp truly wants to go as low as possible and still retaining the benefits. I dropped to 100mg per week.months ago and am just fine. My BP went down to sub 130, I stopped getting shoulder acne here and there and my libido is even better. My HDL went up double digits. I also am holding steady in gym at 5'8 200. Using TRT (not cycling) to build muscle for me is impossible anyways at this point. I have too much muscle that even 30mg per day (210 per week) won't do anything other than maintain what I have. If I want to build muscle I will take anabolics. I also just had BPH surgery so I definitely want to keep.my DHT and e2 out of higher range.

30mg per day 210 per week put me at 2000 total t, 45 free t, e2 60s. My HDL was 40 instead of now 60 on 100mg. My LDL was climbing (aI am on a statin and repatha now). Those numbers are way way way way too high to run long term and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

 

[jtmarlin]

Tren and pulsing orals.

This crossed my mind. I have never used tren but I stare at a bottle I have all the time and want to put 5-10mg in a syringe and roll.

 

[wp_375]

Its by far my favorite for effectiveness but I have had some sexual issues with it. Thay being said I have only run it with higher amounts of test.

There's your problem. For me and a lot of other people 50-80mg of Test plus Deca is the magic ratio. If I went over TRT amounts of Test with Deca I immediately got sides. 50mg Test and 300 Deca for me gave good gains, libido was great and diamond like boners. No BP issues either.

Aside from Deca (or orals that don't aromatize) the only thing I can think of is to run TRT Test + whatever amount of Primobolan you want + injectable Estradiol Cyp to keep your E2 where you want it. May take some experimenting but Primo is super mild, you could probably run TRT + 500mg of Primo and get good gains with little to no sides if you use the injectable E2 to keep your E2 right.

I also have low SHBG, mine is typically 10 or less.

 

[jtmarlin]

There's your problem. For me and a lot of other people 50-80mg of Test plus Deca is the magic ratio. If I went over TRT amounts of Test with Deca I immediately got sides. 50mg Test and 300 Deca for me gave good gains, libido was great and diamond like boners. No BP issues either.

Aside from Deca (or orals that don't aromatize) the only thing I can think of is to run TRT Test + whatever amount of Primobolan you want + injectable Estradiol Cyp to keep your E2 where you want it. May take some experimenting but Primo is super mild, you could probably run TRT + 500mg of Primo and get good gains with little to no sides if you use the injectable E2 to keep your E2 right.

I also have low SHBG, mine is typically 10 or less.

Thanks. Was looking for this. If you are on TRT what is your usual.dose?

 

[atruse]

Injectible e2 is also an option to reach a baseline e2 so that primo/EQ can be run independent of your test

This

I can’t run my test to high or my BP and RHR gets outta control as well. Plus it just bloats my face and makes me look way older ..

So I’m running 200mg test 420mg primo, plus 0.7mg e2/week
Feel great

 

[craigdt]

This

I can’t run my test to high or my BP and RHR gets outta control as well. Plus it just bloats my face and makes me look way older ..

So I’m running 200mg test 420mg primo, plus 0.7mg e2/week
Feel great

I did something like this during my test/eq cycle.

Eq was HAMMERING my estrogen way harder than primo ever has.

 

[jtmarlin]

This

I can’t run my test to high or my BP and RHR gets outta control as well. Plus it just bloats my face and makes me look way older ..

So I’m running 200mg test 420mg primo, plus 0.7mg e2/week
Feel great

my e2 would be basically zero on 200 test and 420 primo... does that sound like you and where does this protocol land you e2?

 

[just some dude]

At lower dosages it just makes me "last longer" but being in my mid-50's it does hit my BP hard so I dont run it anymore. This cycle would still give you 500 total with E2 control, joint help and hopefully still a good performance. Just a thought

prolactin makes you last longer so ya

 

[atruse]

my e2 would be basically zero on 200 test and 420 primo... does that sound like you and where does this protocol land you e2?

I have bloodwork in two weeks
Only been on this cycle 4 weeks now
So we’ll find out haha

So far tho, no real low e2 side effects

 

[Duraclear]

I have tried it so many ways for so.many years TRT. I have really low SHBG (doesnt matter how in inject I have done it weekly, daily twice a week) and my free t at trough on 140 was 30. I also could not keep my BP under 130. I have done 30mg per day, 200mg per week, 20mg per day, 80mg e3.5 day, 70mg e3.5d, every combo of HCG and adex you can think of. I have been doing this for over half a decade. What I have seen in the TRT space for men who more interested in replacement vs how much they can get away with as "optimization" is that the first camp truly wants to go as low as possible and still retaining the benefits. I dropped to 100mg per week.months ago and am just fine. My BP went down to sub 130, I stopped getting shoulder acne here and there and my libido is even better. My HDL went up double digits. I also am holding steady in gym at 5'8 200. Using TRT (not cycling) to build muscle for me is impossible anyways at this point. I have too much muscle that even 30mg per day (210 per week) won't do anything other than maintain what I have. If I want to build muscle I will take anabolics. I also just had BPH surgery so I definitely want to keep.my DHT and e2 out of higher range.

30mg per day 210 per week put me at 2000 total t, 45 free t, e2 60s. My HDL was 40 instead of now 60 on 100mg. My LDL was climbing (aI am on a statin and repatha now). Those numbers are way way way way too high to run long term and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

I am in a very similar boat and have the same "true TRT" philosophy. I'm not looking to "optimize" and have also settled at just over 100mgs/wk administered subq daily, which puts me at right around 1,000 total, SHBG 35, free test between 150-200. I've also put a lot of thought into this question.

The conclusion I've come to is that we don't have any perfect options. There's no magic to this. If we want juicer results, we'll just have to juice and deal with the side effects and consequences. Or not.

I've upped my T dose as high as 250, but I feel strangely "hot" on that dose, my libido gets out of control, and it screws up my sleep. No noticeable effect to bloods or BP, but I just generally feel amped and unhealthy. It's not something I can do for more than 6 weeks at a time or so.

I experimented with masteron and it trashed my sleep. Totally unsustainable and didn't really do much anyway.

I've added up to 150mg/wk of nandrolone (tried both deca and NPP, there was no difference). Didn't get any of the rumored joint benefits and it was only in retrospect that I realized how bad it made my temper. I would fly off the handle for no reason occasionally, but it didn't register as abnormal behavior at the time. It also cranked my hematocrit up to 54 and E2 over 100 in very short order. In general, I hate this substance and won't use it again.

The only thing that's been tolerable and effective is low dose Anavar at 5 - 10mgs/day, especially in a defecit. Definitely helps to retain muscle and gives a noticeably harder look. But it hits my HDL for about a point per mg. Fortunately, my triglycerides (which is a more significant marker than LDL) are down in the 30s, so it's not a huge deal, but it's not something I want to do for extended periods of time.

I may experiment with very low dose tren at 20-ish mg/wk and see how that goes. Obviously, there will be some negative sides with probably minimal returns at that dose and it may not turn out to be worthwhile, but we will see.

 

[aromatizer]

I'm in my 60s. 2:1 Test to Masteron, 5mg cialis daily, 6-10g citruline/argiline works for me on TRT doses. libido cranking, rock hard boners. blood pressure and bloodwork all good. E2 is through the roof but the mast blocks the sides. E1 is high and I take CDG and DIM to control it.

As far Ryan Ballow from Cortex "labs" is concerned, his latest shtick is spiking testosterone. Yeah right, ok thanks. If it comes to knowledge from ppl like John Jewett who advocate stable levels, I'll pick Jewett every time. Get the AIs to research it and stable levels rock.

David Lee TRT claims no one should measure E2, hmm, yeah... nah bro. I get these ppl are trying to be contrary to stake out some market niche but, like seriously, fuck off already

Listen to these influences at your own peril.

 

[niqTM]

I'm in my 60s. 2:1 Test to Masteron, 5mg cialis daily, 6-10g citruline/argiline works for me on TRT doses. libido cranking, rock hard boners. blood pressure and bloodwork all good. E2 is through the roof but the mast blocks the sides. E1 is high and I take CDG and DIM to control it.

As far Ryan Ballow from Cortex "labs" is concerned, his latest shtick is spiking testosterone. Yeah right, ok thanks. If it comes to knowledge from ppl like John Jewett who advocate stable levels, I'll pick Jewett every time. Get the AIs to research it and stable levels rock.

David Lee TRT claims no one should measure E2, hmm, yeah... nah bro. I get these ppl are trying to be contrary to stake out some market niche but, like seriously, fuck off already

Listen to these influences at your own peril.

I agree. Ryan from Cortex is all over the place with his information constantly contradticting himself in later videos and it doesn't seem like its from more information. It seems like he is trying to come up with something novel that will pique the interest of some new guy to try something new to get attention.

He has mentioned over and over again that EOD prop injections is the best protocol for a lot of guys and that just seems totally backwards considering we know that active half life is less than 24 hours now.

I am not staying prop is garbage and cyp is best by any means. Everyone is different but the dogmatic nature of some of these guys and then changing it later without mentioning why thry changed their mind is annyoing at best.

 

[JK1]

I am in a very similar boat and have the same "true TRT" philosophy. I'm not looking to "optimize" and have also settled at just over 100mgs/wk administered subq daily, which puts me at right around 1,000 total, SHBG 35, free test between 150-200. I've also put a lot of thought into this question.

The conclusion I've come to is that we don't have any perfect options. There's no magic to this. If we want juicer results, we'll just have to juice and deal with the side effects and consequences. Or not.

I've upped my T dose as high as 250, but I feel strangely "hot" on that dose, my libido gets out of control, and it screws up my sleep. No noticeable effect to bloods or BP, but I just generally feel amped and unhealthy. It's not something I can do for more than 6 weeks at a time or so.

I experimented with masteron and it trashed my sleep. Totally unsustainable and didn't really do much anyway.

I've added up to 150mg/wk of nandrolone (tried both deca and NPP, there was no difference). Didn't get any of the rumored joint benefits and it was only in retrospect that I realized how bad it made my temper. I would fly off the handle for no reason occasionally, but it didn't register as abnormal behavior at the time. It also cranked my hematocrit up to 54 and E2 over 100 in very short order. In general, I hate this substance and won't use it again.

The only thing that's been tolerable and effective is low dose Anavar at 5 - 10mgs/day, especially in a defecit. Definitely helps to retain muscle and gives a noticeably harder look. But it hits my HDL for about a point per mg. Fortunately, my triglycerides (which is a more significant marker than LDL) are down in the 30s, so it's not a huge deal, but it's not something I want to do for extended periods of time.

I may experiment with very low dose tren at 20-ish mg/wk and see how that goes. Obviously, there will be some negative sides with probably minimal returns at that dose and it may not turn out to be worthwhile, but we will see.

Well said, you cover a lot of useful points of experience here. Sensible approach.

That amped feeling and/or even slight reduction in sleep quality if all else ok/ reasonable are in my opinion other side effects worth taking notice of if your risk tolerance is lower. My HRV gets flatlined and thats a reflection of that amped up/ constant sympathetic tone and its absolutely not healthy. Essentially a form of chronic stress, with cardiac and other implications.

Currently waiting to notice if i get any joint effects from deca ... nothing yet so it may be similar to you.

If you ever get to your microdose of tren experiment keep us updated.

 

[Kracken]

I'm in my early 60s. I was running "TRT" at 280 mg / week (administered twice weekly) for a long time. I knew my blood was thick but when I did labs it came back at about 54% and worse, the E2 was at 100.

I couldn't find any mast, because Todd Lee says it will prevent high E2 from giving my gyno, but I found some primo. So I changed to 200 Mg test cyp with 100 mg primo weekly, the idea that the primo will keep the E2 from all the test in check. My hope is that I can find a sweet spot where the E2 is acceptable, the hematocrit is reasonable and I can still make progress.

I'll do labs in 2 weeks and see. If the E2 is still high, depending upon how high I'll reduce test and increase primo, 6 more weeks and check again.

I am also using hCG which is probably also contributing to the high E2 but I really don't want my balls to shrink. Other than that stuff, nothing.

I realize this is not going to help OP (sorry) since he has a hard limit of 100 mg test weekly, but I'll watch this thread, post my results in case someone finds it useful.

 

[JK1]

I'm in my early 60s. I was running "TRT" at 280 mg / week (administered twice weekly) for a long time. I knew my blood was thick but when I did labs it came back at about 54% and worse, the E2 was at 100.

I couldn't find any mast, because Todd Lee says it will prevent high E2 from giving my gyno, but I found some primo. So I changed to 200 Mg test cyp with 100 mg primo weekly, the idea that the primo will keep the E2 from all the test in check. My hope is that I can find a sweet spot where the E2 is acceptable, the hematocrit is reasonable and I can still make progress.

I'll do labs in 2 weeks and see. If the E2 is still high, depending upon how high I'll reduce test and increase primo, 6 more weeks and check again.

I am also using hCG which is probably also contributing to the high E2 but I really don't want my balls to shrink. Other than that stuff, nothing.

I realize this is not going to help OP (sorry) since he has a hard limit of 100 mg test weekly, but I'll watch this thread, post my results in case someone finds it useful.

E2 at 100 pg/mL? Out of curiosity were you attributing any side effects to this? I've been at 405 pmol/l → 110 pg/ml.

I am also on a 2:1 test to primo ratio as a start point. 300 test and 150 primo and that has my E2 at 198 pmol/L ≈ 54 pg/mL. The primo is certainly lowering my E2 here, knowing what my historical test only dose and E2 measurements are.

What are you going to consider as acceptable E2 and hematocrit, if no overt side effects?

 

[Cvazquez1216]

Nothing I have ever run anything replaces Deca for strength and size (I have some NPP but never ran it figuring it will have the same sides albeit shorter lived). I have never run Tren. So, to answer tour question, I just go without at my age or if I want to grab a boost I am a very good responder to Anavar.

I like NPP but it’s littered with sides when you push the doses. These days I keep it only as joint support and don’t really ever exceed 75mg

 

[Cvazquez1216]

This crossed my mind. I have never used tren but I stare at a bottle I have all the time and want to put 5-10mg in a syringe and roll.

Tren is overrated imo. Way too many sides to try and manage or just straight up deal with. If you wanna feel like you’re gonna run through a wall pop some Anadrol

 

[Kracken]

E2 at 100 pg/mL? Out of curiosity were you attributing any side effects to this? I've been at 405 pmol/l → 110 pg/ml.

I'm not sure I had any side effects of high E2 actually. I'm scared to heck of gyno but there are really no signs of it, no ED, libido is good, I'm not losing muscle and I have not gained weight or fat. No hair thinning or loss. Also no acne, although thats a test thing I guess. It may have been impacting my emotions though. I feel a little happier now and get upset less easily than several weeks ago but that could be coincidence.

I am also on a 2:1 test to primo ratio as a start point. 300 test and 150 primo and that has my E2 at 198 pmol/L ≈ 54 pg/mL. The primo is certainly lowering my E2 here, knowing what my historical test only dose and E2 measurements are.

Thanks for posting that, its very reassuring. I hope I have as good a result with the 2:1 ratio. I'll know in several weeks and post the result.

What are you going to consider as acceptable E2 and hematocrit, if no overt side effects?

Great questions. For E2, I have no idea. The lab results say < 29 is the "desirable result" but I have read that higher is okay, even as high as 100 which was what I last tested in late December. I probably would be happy under 50ish if I continue to have no sides and my mood / emotions / whatever remain stable and good. I *think* E2 is anabolic so a little on the high side is good. Not sure thats true.

For hematocrit, lab results say 39.4 to 51.1 is "desirable." That seems oddly specific. I last tested at 58.6%. Last time I tried to give blood the Red Cross did their test and wouldn't touch me. Another place that does not care did the test and the tech told me that she could see my blood is "really thick." So I guess, absent contrary data, I want it in that desirable range.

I have been told I can reduce it by drinking lots more water and injecting daily as opposed to twice weekly. I have also read that a higher RBC count is good because more red blood cells means more O2 to my muscles.

What do you think are "desirable" or at least acceptable levels?

 

[Badsanta]

I'm not sure I had any side effects of high E2 actually. I'm scared to heck of gyno but there are really no signs of it, no ED, libido is good, I'm not losing muscle and I have not gained weight or fat. No hair thinning or loss. Also no acne, although thats a test thing I guess. It may have been impacting my emotions though. I feel a little happier now and get upset less easily than several weeks ago but that could be coincidence.



Thanks for posting that, its very reassuring. I hope I have as good a result with the 2:1 ratio. I'll know in several weeks and post the result.


Great questions. For E2, I have no idea. The lab results say < 29 is the "desirable result" but I have read that higher is okay, even as high as 100 which was what I last tested in late December. I probably would be happy under 50ish if I continue to have no sides and my mood / emotions / whatever remain stable and good. I *think* E2 is anabolic so a little on the high side is good. Not sure thats true.

For hematocrit, lab results say 39.4 to 51.1 is "desirable." That seems oddly specific. I last tested at 58.6%. Last time I tried to give blood the Red Cross did their test and wouldn't touch me. Another place that does not care did the test and the tech told me that she could see my blood is "really thick." So I guess, absent contrary data, I want it in that desirable range.

I have been told I can reduce it by drinking lots more water and injecting daily as opposed to twice weekly. I have also read that a higher RBC count is good because more red blood cells means more O2 to my muscles.

What do you think are "desirable" or at least acceptable levels?

One other thing that can contribute to high hematocrit is sleep apnea. Starting TRT and getting a CPAP is the smartest medical decision I have made yet.