Got an autoclave

[HuckingFuge]

autoclave was a waist of money, but now you can sterilize you used vials

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

The autoclaving is an extra precautionary measure. Of course you'd strive for asepsis before bottling.

Not strive, achieve. Sterilize by filtration and autoclave your empty, open vials and caps, then bottle and be done with it.

Wet heat/steam beats the glass vial which in turn heats the contents inside. It does not have to come in direct contact with what's inside the vial.

And that is the same as baking sealed vials in an oven. It will heat the contents in exactly the same way. The autoclave might be wet heat outside the vial but it's still results in dry heat within. There is no magical property by which steam heats the inside of a sealed vial. It's just transferring thermal energy.

I believe you're bowling the risk of implosion and caps blowing off. We are not overfilling the vials and there's plenty of head space for the vial not to explode. The first time I brewed I had ordered the wrong crimper for my flip tops so I wasn't able to use it to seal the vials. I used a Knife and spoon to crimp the tops and stoppers on. You could say it was a poor crimp so some of the internal pressure of the vial was allowed to dissipate but the crimp was good enough to not let any moisture enter the vials so I doubt it was due to that. Here's a company in the pharmaceutical industry on autoclaving closed containers

The risk isn't implosion, it's explosion. Air within the vial expands along with the oil. The reason your poorly crimped caps didn't allow moisture to enter the vial was because they vented the pressure while still maintaining positive pressure within the vial, i.e., the pressure within the vial was greater than that of the chamber. Had your caps vented enough pressure to allow the pressures in the vials and chamber to equalize, you would have had moisture contamination inside the vials. Had they not allowed the pressure to vent at all, it's quite likely those poorly fitted caps would have blown off and ruined your gear.

Putting sealed vials in an autoclave is at best a waste of time and at worst could ruin your whole batch. It's a needless risk.

 

[Docd187123]

Not strive, achieve. Sterilize by filtration and autoclave your empty, open vials and caps, then bottle and be done with it.

I use dry heat aka the oven to sterilize the open vials. It works much better on the open vials at 500deg.

And that is the same as baking sealed vials in an oven. It will heat the contents in exactly the same way. The autoclave might be wet heat outside the vial but it's still results in dry heat within. There is no magical property by which steam heats the inside of a sealed vial. It's just transferring thermal energy.

You're not getting this. I understand it's a transfer of thermal energy. But wet heat or steam penetrates to heat the contents of the vial much faster and better than dry heat does. Red my excerpt from the WHO, I believe in there it states it. The steam allows the contents of the vial to be heated up much faster than dry heat would or the steam allows for a better transfer of the thermal energy. Dry heat requires much higher temps and exposure time to equate to similar sterlitly levels that can be achieved with autoclaves.

The risk isn't implosion, it's explosion. Air within the vial expands along with the oil. The reason your poorly crimped caps didn't allow moisture to enter the vial was because they vented the pressure while still maintaining positive pressure within the vial, i.e., the pressure within the vial was greater than that of the chamber. Had your caps vented enough pressure to allow the pressures in the vials and chamber to equalize, you would have had moisture contamination inside the vials. Had they not allowed the pressure to vent at all, it's quite likely those poorly fitted caps would have blown off and ruined your gear.

Putting sealed vials in an autoclave is at best a waste of time and at worst could ruin your whole batch. It's a needless risk.

And if you read the Telstar link I provided it says steam sterilization if closed containers containing liquids is fine unless the pressure differential between internal and external/chamber pressure is substantial in which case problems MAY arise. By not overfilling the vials you leave ample head space for the internal pressure to remain lower and not damage the vial or the aluminum cap which is the weakest link.

How could it ruin the whole batch? By shattering the glass or seal on the aluminum top? In light of what I've linked and read through hundreds of anecdotal reports of people using pressure cookers and autoclaves on their finished products I've yet to read once of a vial exploding. And at best you, the waste of time you speak of can destroy the microorganisms missed with filtering. Even a .22um filter can leave behind microorganisms. You also must have glossed over the fact that most of us home brewers aren't in a sterile environment or work in a clean room. So once you autoclave or use dry heat to sterilize an open vial and filter the oil, you are still left with an open vial exposed to a non-sterilie/non-clean environment while you're filling that vial and before it's capped. The autoclaving deactivates anything that might have contaminated the oils during this time.

I will not brew without autoclaving/pressure cooking. If you brew feel free to skip the step, I will not.

 

[Docd187123]

autoclave was a waist of money, but now you can sterilize you used vials

You don't need an autoclave to sterilize used vials. There's other ways to do it.

 

[Docd187123]

I asked this question to one of my friends at the gym a little while ago who is a medical tech, well i guess is what you would call him, and he said flat out said you NEVER put anything pressurized in an autoclave what so ever. Emphasis on the never....

Pressurized? When you cap a vial it's only at the atmospheric pressure of the environment you capped it in.....

 

[HuckingFuge]

You don't need an autoclave to sterilize used vials. There's other ways to do it.

true, but he has one

 

[colossus25]

Pressurized? When you cap a vial it's only at the atmospheric pressure of the environment you capped it in.....

I specifically asked him about a sealed vial and that was the answer he gave. He went explain what a few others have already stated about their being a risk of caps exploding because of the pressure build up but also said that it depends on whats inside and also the settings of the machine. He then said regardless it was pointless and what ever was in the vials should be sterile before even going in the vials. Ive never used an autoclave so i dont know what to specifically ask brother i went to him because he deals with this on a daily basis and this was the answer he gave me. Im honestly following this thread to learn more about autoclaves and home brewing. Furthest ive gone is making gso mixes to reduce pip in gear. I guess in a hospital setting they dont autoclave sealed vials.

 

[colossus25]

I mean seriously your answers seem educated and you obviously have a lot of experience i dont you for a second.

 

[Docd187123]

I specifically asked him about a sealed vial and that was the answer he gave. He went explain what a few others have already stated about their being a risk of caps exploding because of the pressure build up but also said that it depends on whats inside and also the settings of the machine. He then said regardless it was pointless and what ever was in the vials should be sterile before even going in the vials. Ive never used an autoclave so i dont know what to specifically ask brother i went to him because he deals with this on a daily basis and this was the answer he gave me. Im honestly following this thread to learn more about autoclaves and home brewing. Furthest ive gone is making gso mixes to reduce pip in gear. I guess in a hospital setting they dont autoclave sealed vials.

One thing medical techs and the like have going for them is they usually have access to clean rooms. We usually do not. It's an extra step that may not be required but it doesn't hurt either. 250deg isn't going to damage the hormone and the likelihood of a good quality vial that's not overfilled exploding is negligible IMO. The weak link is the aluminum cap anyway not the vial itself and if the aluminum cap gets loose pressure will be allowed to vent out the vial negating the risk of an explosion.

In an ideal setting everything is sterile before entering the vial of course but as I mentioned earlier, we don't usually work in a clean room and the time spent filling an opened vial exposes it to outside contamination. Autoclaving will neutralize the bacteria or whatever else may get in.

 

[colossus25]

One thing medical techs and the like have going for them is they usually have access to clean rooms. We usually do not. It's an extra step that may not be required but it doesn't hurt either. 250deg isn't going to damage the hormone and the likelihood of a good quality vial that's not overfilled exploding is negligible IMO. The weak link is the aluminum cap anyway not the vial itself and if the aluminum cap gets loose pressure will be allowed to vent out the vial negating the risk of an explosion.

In an ideal setting everything is sterile before entering the vial of course but as I mentioned earlier, we don't usually work in a clean room and the time spent filling an opened vial exposes it to outside contamination. Autoclaving will neutralize the bacteria or whatever else may get in.

Hmmm makes perfect sense its more an extra precaution to insure sterility. How long do you vials in the autoclave?

 

[Docd187123]

Hmmm makes perfect sense its more an extra precaution to insure sterility. How long do you vials in the autoclave?

I do 1.5 to 2hrs since oil based solutions aren't heated as well as aqueous solutions with wet heat.

 

[CensoredBoardsSuck]

I use dry heat aka the oven to sterilize the open vials. It works much better on the open vials at 500deg.

So the one thing for which you SHOULD be using the autoclave, you don't. Nice!

You're not getting this. I understand it's a transfer of thermal energy. But wet heat or steam penetrates to heat the contents of the vial much faster and better than dry heat does. Red my excerpt from the WHO, I believe in there it states it. The steam allows the contents of the vial to be heated up much faster than dry heat would or the steam allows for a better transfer of the thermal energy. Dry heat requires much higher temps and exposure time to equate to similar sterlitly levels that can be achieved with autoclaves.

The reason autoclaves are so effective at sterilization is because they use pressurized steam to evacuate the chamber of air (a condition that does not occur within your sealed vials) allowing the superheated water molecules to rapidly conduct heat into the microorganisms. You seem to believe steam has some magical property that enables it to affect the inside of a sealed container by a means other than thermal transfer. It does not.

Your WHO article makes no such claims regarding sealed vials. Sterilization MUST be completed before the product is sealed in the vial. From the FDA:

“In an aseptic process, the drug product, container, and closure are first subjected to sterilization methods separately, as appropriate, and then brought together.2 Because there is no process to sterilize the product in its final container, it is critical that containers be filled and sealed in an extremely high-quality environment.”

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/.../Guidances/ucm070342.pdf​

And if you read the Telstar link I provided it says steam sterilization if closed containers containing liquids is fine unless the pressure differential between internal and external/chamber pressure is substantial in which case problems MAY arise. By not overfilling the vials you leave ample head space for the internal pressure to remain lower and not damage the vial or the aluminum cap which is the weakest link.

The "headspace" is made up of air. It expands too.

Your Telstar citation put vials of water in an autoclave, not oil. However, they do note the expansion of air within the sealed vial:

Inside the container there are two volumes. One volume is occupied by liquid and the other, which -is referred to as the head- space, is filled with a mixture of air and water vapour. When heating the glass container, five physical phenomena simultaneously occur:

​

• • The glass expands, increasing the total volume of the vial. Consequently, the head-space increases and the pressure decreases.
  • Part of the water evaporates, which increases the pressure.
  • Although only slight, the volume of liquid water decreases because part of it evaporates, increasing the head-space and lowering the pressure.
  • The water that has not evaporated expands, increasing its volume, and consequently the head-space decreases and the pressure increases.
  • The air expands therefore increasing the pressure.

How could it ruin the whole batch? By shattering the glass or seal on the aluminum top? In light of what I've linked and read through hundreds of anecdotal reports of people using pressure cookers and autoclaves on their finished products I've yet to read once of a vial exploding.

There is a risk of moisture entering the vials if the seal is compromised. In addition, subjecting the AAS to heat risks oxidation, particularly with the easily oxidized compounds like trenbolone.

And at best you, the waste of time you speak of can destroy the microorganisms missed with filtering. Even a .22um filter can leave behind microorganisms.

Anything remaining after .2 micron filtration is not a concern. You will inject way more bacterial from whatever the needle picks up from your skin flora than from whatever remains in the oil after filtration.

You also must have glossed over the fact that most of us home brewers aren't in a sterile environment or work in a clean room. So once you autoclave or use dry heat to sterilize an open vial and filter the oil, you are still left with an open vial exposed to a non-sterilie/non-clean environment while you're filling that vial and before it's capped. The autoclaving deactivates anything that might have contaminated the oils during this time.

And as soon as you puncture the seal of the vial with a needle, you've just introduced outside air (from a non sterile environment) to the inside of the vial. It doesn't matter.

You're free to do whatever you want but I would caution anyone that is reading this thread to view your comments on the aseptic processing of parenteral drugs with a high degree of skepticism.

 

[6Fingers-Pharma]

I have tried reading the articles you quoted, for if I am wrong, I feel it important to admit it.
I shared with my partner the difficulty in helping you realize how to interpret what is being stated in articles you read. She believed it important for me to explain that your methodology is not always wrong, only in this case.
The method of sterilization you are trying to utilize is what we refer to as terminal sterilization, as it is final environment. It can be used on aqueous solutions and with sealed containers, but this has no bearing on the situation of oil-based solutions in vails.

Your autoclave gives readings that must fit certain parameters, of both heat and pressure, to succeed at sterilization.
As you state:
Pressurized? When you cap a vial it's only at the atmospheric pressure of the environment you capped it in.....

So when you utilize your autoclave, the interior of the autoclave reaches a point of pressure and temperature necessary for sterilization. But these readings do not reflect the interior pressure of your vial.


You quoted the World Health Organization, which personally I believe are merely puppets, but in this, they are accurate.

http://apps.who.int/phint/en/p/docf/

"In dry-heat processes, the primary lethal process is considered to be oxidation of cell constituents. Dry-heat sterilization requires a higher temperature than moist heat and a longer exposure time. The method is, therefore, more convenient for heat-stable, non-aqueous materials that cannot be sterilized by steam because of its deleterious effects or failure to penetrate. Such materials include glassware, powders, oils, and some oil-based injectables."

 

[6Fingers-Pharma]

So the one thing for which you SHOULD be using the autoclave, you don't. Nice!


You're free to do whatever you want but I would caution anyone that is reading this thread to view your comments on the aseptic processing of parenteral drugs with a high degree of skepticism.

The comments you have made regarding your understanding of sterilization and aseptic conditions has been 100% accurate. I cannot PM. If you wish, send me an email address. You will be taken care of, free of charge.

 

[MoriorInvictus]

The comments you have made regarding your understanding of sterilization and aseptic conditions has been 100% accurate. I cannot PM. If you wish, send me an email address. You will be taken care of, free of charge.

If you want to start peddling gear you'd better do an introduction and prepare to answer many questions. This isn't a source board but if you have aspirations of selling gear here start in the underground section and start a thread. But don't tip toe around other threads trying to build a customer base by giving away free bees and being a "nice guy".

 

[Docd187123]

The comments you have made regarding your understanding of sterilization and aseptic conditions has been 100% accurate. I cannot PM. If you wish, send me an email address. You will be taken care of, free of charge.

He won't accept "gifts" FYI. as much as he and I have disagreed and fought in the past I will say he has the morals to not take free shit from a UGL.

 

[Docd187123]

So the one thing for which you SHOULD be using the autoclave, you don't. Nice!

Depyrogenation is fine at sterilizing open vials. Yes you could use the autoclave but I simply prefer using the other method.

The reason autoclaves are so effective at sterilization is because they use pressurized steam to evacuate the chamber of air (a condition that does not occur within your sealed vials) allowing the superheated water molecules to rapidly conduct heat into the microorganisms. You seem to believe steam has some magical property that enables it to affect the inside of a sealed container by a means other than thermal transfer. It does not.

Your WHO article makes no such claims regarding sealed vials. Sterilization MUST be completed before the product is sealed in the vial. From the FDA:

“In an aseptic process, the drug product, container, and closure are first subjected to sterilization methods separately, as appropriate, and then brought together.2 Because there is no process to sterilize the product in its final container, it is critical that containers be filled and sealed in an extremely high-quality environment.”

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/.../Guidances/ucm070342.pdf​

The "headspace" is made up of air. It expands too.



Your Telstar citation put vials of water in an autoclave, not oil. However, they do note the expansion of air within the sealed vial:

Inside the container there are two volumes. One volume is occupied by liquid and the other, which -is referred to as the head- space, is filled with a mixture of air and water vapour. When heating the glass container, five physical phenomena simultaneously occur:

​

• • The glass expands, increasing the total volume of the vial. Consequently, the head-space increases and the pressure decreases.
  • Part of the water evaporates, which increases the pressure.
  • Although only slight, the volume of liquid water decreases because part of it evaporates, increasing the head-space and lowering the pressure.
  • The water that has not evaporated expands, increasing its volume, and consequently the head-space decreases and the pressure increases.
  • The air expands therefore increasing the pressure.

There is a risk of moisture entering the vials if the seal is compromised. In addition, subjecting the AAS to heat risks oxidation, particularly with the easily oxidized compounds like trenbolone.

Anything remaining after .2 micron filtration is not a concern. You will inject way more bacterial from whatever the needle picks up from your skin flora than from whatever remains in the oil after filtration.



And as soon as you puncture the seal of the vial with a needle, you've just introduced outside air (from a non sterile environment) to the inside of the vial. It doesn't matter.

You're free to do whatever you want but I would caution anyone that is reading this thread to view your comments on the aseptic processing of parenteral drugs with a high degree of skepticism.

You've given me food for thought. I'll have to look into this further. Thank you for the discussion.

 

[Dr JIM]

View attachment 23912 picked up my last piece of the puzzle for my home brewing, shown here warming up running a test cycle. Being new to this, I want to make sure my thought process is right. My plan is to mix up my brew, heat and stir until clear, filter, place in properly prepped vials, install the sterilized caps and stoppers, and then run them in autoclave. It's my understanding that when pressure cooking like that I do not have to vent the vials. Any advice before I start is always appreciated.

You have obviously never used an AC before, bc one of the golden rules is ANY "closed apparatus", a comparative example in this instance is a test tube, MUST BE VENTED!

The only means of avoiding venting is the use of heat that does NOT exceed the boiling temperature of water, yet doing that will NOT sterilize the products enclosed!

The bottom line considering the advances in filtering techniques, using an AC is not only cumbersome but also potentially dangerous!

 

[OdieM]

I can't not believe what I just read in this thread. Remind me to never buy/trade home-brew from anyone on this board. lol

 

[colossus25]

So much good information on this thread honestly. Thank you everyone that contributed.