Growth Stack Design Principles

[ChestRockwell]

It's funny because your ideas and philosophies are almost completely contradictory to his own. He obviously believed more is almost always better, and run tren with every cycle... Also, as much GH as you can afford, and insulin with carbs out the ass...

When it comes to hormones, we agree on just about nothing. The very early versions of his character were much more in line with my philosophies, but the character changed a lot over the years.

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

Original article located here.

Disclaimer: many of the compounds referred to in this article may be controlled substances depending upon where the reader lives, always be respectful and mindful of local laws as it relates to AAS possession and use…

Arguably one of the most common questions in bodybuilding circles is “what is the best stack design for maximizing muscle growth?”. Of course, there will never be a singular answer to this question largely due to the individual variances that exist within people. With that said, there are still some general guidelines that one can employ when deciding for themselves how to proceed with their growth stack design process. Please note that this article is designed for enhanced males, and exogenous use by females is to be considered out of scope.

I also want to throw out that, when someone decides to take the plunge into the world of exogenous hormones, they should always begin with a growth phase. Often, the greatest response to hormones comes with the very first experience and so it shouldn’t be wasted during a period of dieting in my eyes. For the vast majority of folks, putting on quality lean tissue is light-years more difficult than shedding body fat, which can be done quite easily without the need for exogenous support.

The last things worth mentioning before we dive into the meat of this article are really just some housecleaning items. I want to be very clear that the decision to use exogenous hormones should not be taken lightly and in some instances it will now become a lifelong commitment. My personal views at this time are that cycling, or the use of exogenous hormones for short duration followed by a period of coming off completely, is not the wisest philosophy. Although nothing concrete exists in the literature, I tend to speculate that the hormonal roller-coaster caused with this method has the potential to be much rougher on the endocrine system that my preferred “blast and cruise” methodology. Simply stated, you replace the “coming off” phase mentioned earlier with a sustained TRT phase where you utilize exogenous testosterone much like an actual TRT patient would (although bodybuilders will often use higher doses during the cruise phase). I will likely get into the health implications of these methods in a later article.

The last things worth mentioning before we dive into the meat of this article are really just some housecleaning items. I want to be very clear that the decision to use exogenous hormones should not be taken lightly and in some instances it will now become a lifelong commitment. My personal views at this time are that cycling, or the use of exogenous hormones for short durations followed by a period of coming off completely, is not the wisest philosophy. Although nothing concrete exists in the literature, I tend to speculate that the hormonal roller-coaster caused with this method has the potential to be much rougher on the endocrine system that my preferred “blast and cruise” methodology. Simply stated, you replace the “coming off” phase mentioned earlier with a sustained TRT phase where you utilize exogenous testosterone much like an actual TRT patient would (although bodybuilders will often use higher doses during the cruise phase). I will likely get into the health implications of these methods in a later article.

I would also be remiss if I didn’t mention that exogenous hormones should not be used as a crutch in replacement of a properly structured lifestyle, including but not limited to diet, training, sleep, stress, etc. If you don’t understand how to build the structure, then you have no business decorating the windows.

With that out of the way, there are two primary growth compounds I recommend for growth anchor purposes; nandrolone and testosterone. Both are fantastic at what they do, heavily studied [1-2], and each has their own pros and cons to be aware of.

It will ultimately come down to the individual to do some self-experimentation to determine what their individual response to each is. For most beginner/intermediates, it stands to reason that testosterone is the safer option considering it is bio-identical to that which is endogenously produced in the body. With that said, it also converts to estrogen at a higher rate than nandrolone, a process known as aromatization. The conversion occurs roughly five times higher in testosterone than it does in nandrolone [4]. For those who tend to be estrogenic, this is certainly something to consider.

For more advanced users, nandrolone tends to be my recommended growth anchor compound. Nandrolone binds to the androgen receptor with a significantly higher affinity as compared to testosterone [5]. As mentioned previously, it also has a lower rate of aromatization which means that higher doses can often be run, leading to greater hypertrophy potential in the long-run. Now, a very important characteristic of nandrolone needs to be mentioned here and this kind of gets off-topic a bit as it dives deeper into how aromatization works. Bear with me though, this is something a lot of folks don’t understand and it becomes vital.

Testosterone converts to estrogen largely via the aromatase enzyme, one of the handful of pathways used by the hormone [6]. When estrogen levels become too high, as compared to androgen levels, within the body side-effects can occur. Getting into all the sides is beyond the scope of this article, but just be aware that these are precisely what should be avoided. For those on testosterone, there are compounds called aromatase inhibitors (AIs) [7] which can bind with this enzyme to suppress the rate at which this conversion occurs (or suicidally bind). AIs will be discussed, in depth, in future articles.

For now, just understand that nandrolone does not use this same pathway to convert to estrogen [8] and so the use of AIs to control the rate of aromatization will largely be pointless. For this reason, those who suffer from estrogenic sides on nandrolone are going to have very limited options. If an individual obtains significant, unwanted, side-effects from nandrolone then testosterone is more than likely going to have to be the desired growth anchor for them.

Having an androgen:estrogen (A:E) ratio in the body’s desired range is critical for both quality of life [9], but also for the body’s hypertrophy machinery operating at full speed. I do not advocate for the use of a consistent and/or proactive AI regimen during periods of growth. Without turning this into an article on AIs (that will come later), know that there are many undesirable effects that come with their sustained use, many of which directly go against building lean tissue. In fact, estrogen itself has many strength and anabolic characteristics [10] that make it a worthwhile hormone to only suppress during times of emergency (e.g. actual sides begin to develop). So, the punchline here is to leave estrogen alone unless actual sides develop.

As opposed to AIs, androgens can be used strategically for those that tend to be on the higher end of estrogenic activity. Again, it isn’t the overall amounts of estradiol in the system but rather the A:E ratio that largely determines whether one is going to be at risk for sides and/or lower quality of life. DHT derivatives such as drostanolone (masteron), stanozolol (winstrol), and mesterolone (proviron) can be used for this purpose as they do not convert to estrogen themselves and have a high androgenic profile. These compounds also tend to have a high affinity for binding with sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) [11] which leaves more free testosterone available to bind to the androgen receptor. Although it is debatable if this is nothing more than a short-term effect, ultimately regulated by the body’s feedbacks, it is still worth mentioning as a possible benefit to those using testosterone as their growth anchor compound.

Oral AAS can be used, but should never be confused for actual anchor compounds. The primary purpose of an oral based AAS should be as an accessory to your growth anchor compound of choice. They can also be used strategically around the workout to increase work capacity and intensity, secondarily leading to greater hypertrophy potential. Both methandrostenolone (dbol) and oxymetholone (anadrol) are great for this purpose. I do not recommend wasting time with other oral AAS variants as they are largely either going to be a waste, highly hepatotoxic, or both. As mentioned above, stanozolol is a bit of a gray area and can be considered an exception if used for the reasons outlined earlier.

Although I am well aware that this may upset folks, I firmly believe that if the need for AIs arises, you are either running too much gear or have designed a stack which your body does not agree with. Instead of continuing to use AIs as part of a band-aid solution, the individual should immediately lower overall AAS doses and/or determine which compound is problematic and then drop it. At the risk of beating this horse to death, AIs are very harsh on our bodies and I also feel strongly that a growth stack should promote as little stress in our body as possible. Abstaining from AIs equals less systemic stress, less systemic stress equals a happier body, and a happier body has the potential to be a more efficient “growth machine”.

These low stress environments are potentially another reason why you can make greater progress using minimalist stack designs when you plan intelligently. I’m a vocal advocate of using a minimum effective dose philosophy, and some stack designs I see floating around the internet are just horrifying. Start small, increase only when necessary, and take a break when the body is giving signs it needs a break.

In a “perfect” world, the individual will simply stick largely to the following compounds for growth purposes:
– Testosterone
– Nandrolone
– Growth Hormone
– Insulin

These are all going to be identical to endogenous hormones in the body so it is likely not a large leap to reason these would provide the most “bang for your buck”. Using things like growth hormone and insulin is not a realistic option for everyone, so that’s why I took time to elaborate above.

• 
  REFERENCES

1. Pan MM, Kovac JR. Beyond testosterone cypionate: evidence behind the use of nandrolone in male health and wellness. Translational Andrology and Urology. 2016;5(2):213-219
2. Geusens P. Nandrolone decanoate: pharmacological properties and therapeutic use in osteoporosis. Clin Rheumatol. 1995 Sep;14 Suppl 3:32-9. Review.
3. Velema MS, Kwa BH, de Ronde W. Should androgenic anabolic steroids be considered in the treatment regime of selected chronic obstructive pulmonary disease patients? Curr Opin Pulm Med. 2012 Mar;18(2):118-24.
4. RYAN KJ. Biological aromatization of steroids. J Biol Chem. 1959 Feb;234(2):268-72.
5. Kicman AT. Pharmacology of anabolic steroids. Br J Pharmacol. 2008 Jun;154(3):502-21. Review.
6. Boon WC, Chow JD, Simpson ER. The multiple roles of estrogens and the enzyme aromatase. Prog Brain Res. 2010;181:209-32.
7. De Ronde W, de Jong FH. Aromatase inhibitors in men: effects and therapeutic options. Reproductive Biology and Endocrinology : RB&E. 2011;9:93.
8. Centrella M, McCarthy TL, Chang WZ, Labaree DC, Hochberg RB. Estren (4-estren-3alpha,17beta-diol) is a prohormone that regulates both androgenic and estrogenic transcriptional effects through the androgen receptor. Mol Endocrinol 2004 May;18(5):1120-30. Epub 2004 Feb 5.
9. Bondarenko VO. [The significance of the androgen-estrogen ratios in the clinical picture of sexual disorders in men]. Lik Sprava. 2000 Jan-Feb;(1):44-7. Ukrainian.
10. Lowe DA, Baltgalvis KA, Greising SM. Mechanisms behind Estrogens’ Beneficial Effect on Muscle Strength in Females. Exercise and sport sciences reviews. 2010;38(2):61-67.
11. Sinnecker G, Köhler S. Sex hormone-binding globulin response to the anabolic steroid stanozolol: evidence for its suitability as a biological androgen sensitivity test. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1989 Jun;68(6):1195-200.

Im glad your hear. Everything you post is worthy of a "sticky"
I dont run AI's and ive taken alot of heat for that

 

[Oregongearhead]

I read Stacking Plates years ago , glad I found it again . Good articles especially Lyle McDonald articles which I like...

 

[Oregongearhead]

Im glad your hear. Everything you post is worthy of a "sticky"
I dont run AI's and ive taken alot of heat for that

I just ran out of one of my Adex foil packs , dont think I"ll break into another . Gonna try without it and finish this 750 test-c cycle without an AI . We will see...

 

[ChestRockwell]

Im glad your hear. Everything you post is worthy of a "sticky"
I dont run AI's and ive taken alot of heat for that

Thank you for those kind words, I very much appreciate that!

As far as the need to run AIs, I think it is cultural. When I first joined MESO, I remember catching a lot of heat for making my philosophies known too, as this seems to be a very cookie cutter "you must run AIs" environment.

The truth is, AIs can potentially cause a lot of hypertrophy to be left on the table, not to mention the numerous other potential concerns that come with running compounds designed for breast cancer patients. And, as I mentioned in the article there is significant aromatase activity in skeletal muscle tissue and I speculate that suppressing this is not ideal for those wanting to maximize their growth potential.

I read Stacking Plates years ago , glad I found it again . Good articles especially Lyle McDonald articles which I like...

Oh right on, welcome back to the site! Lyle and I are actually online friends and I help him administer his private FB group...very knowledgeable fella.

 

[Ripped]

Im glad your hear. Everything you post is worthy of a "sticky"
I dont run AI's and ive taken alot of heat for that

I agree another great thread.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

Thank you for those kind words, I very much appreciate that!

As far as the need to run AIs, I think it is cultural. When I first joined MESO, I remember catching a lot of heat for making my philosophies known too, as this seems to be a very cookie cutter "you must run AIs" environment.

The truth is, AIs can potentially cause a lot of hypertrophy to be left on the table, not to mention the numerous other potential concerns that come with running compounds designed for breast cancer patients. And, as I mentioned in the article there is significant aromatase activity in skeletal muscle tissue and I speculate that suppressing this is not ideal for those wanting to maximize their growth potential.



Oh right on, welcome back to the site! Lyle and I are actually online friends and I help him administer his private FB group...very knowledgeable fella.

Its not scientific but i swear the elevated estrogen makes me stronger
I got no ill effects from it so why the hell would i run my damn AI?

 

[Wunderpus]

Its not scientific but i swear the elevated estrogen makes me stronger
I got no ill effects from it so why the hell would i run my damn AI?

Lucky. I get itchy nips.... Anything at or above 1G of aromatizing compounds and I need an AI, it seems.

 

[ChestRockwell]

Anything at or above 1G of aromatizing compounds and I need an AI, it seems.

For folks that tend to be more estrogenic, getting higher amounts of androgens into the blood can really be a godsend.

Another thing to be cognizant of is how quickly you are increasing those doses...I've found with many folks that modest and measured dose increases can help the body stay in a more homeostatic place.

 

[rugerjitsu]

I've never really had any ill effects from never taking an AI other than a little bloaty red face...never had itchy nips or anything of that sort.

I've also never been a bodybuilder, and have kept my dosages under 500mg of anything.

That said, I'm 40 and only the past couple years have done my own bloodwork to keep an eye on things.

So, aside from bloaty red face, is there a limit one should keep their estrogen under to be safe, or is it purely a "if you feel bad sides coming along" type of indicator that you should use an AI?

 

[ChestRockwell]

So, aside from bloaty red face, is there a limit one should keep their estrogen under to be safe, or is it purely a "if you feel bad sides coming along" type of indicator that you should use an AI?

I don't ever want to make blanket statements such as high estrogen is never a problem. However, with that said, evidence is pretty weak that higher estrogen is going to be problematic as long as A:E ratios are kept in one's natural "sweet spot". There are some epidemiological trials that correlate high estrogen with a higher risk of certain cancers but the evidence is pretty weak at best.

 

[Sampei]

I get estrogenic sides even with 300mg of test a week split into two doses.

I would love to not use AI but for some.ppl i think is just not possible

If i add deca or eq or.any other aromatizating compounds i get into a nightmare of sides

 

[Sampei]

If i use androgenic compounds like tren becayse my e2 are high due to 300mg test and.no.AI i get leaking nipples in a matter of a few days. Very unpleasent.

 

[ChestRockwell]

I get estrogenic sides even with 300mg of test a week split into two doses.

I would love to not use AI but for some.ppl i think is just not possible

If i add deca or eq or.any other aromatizating compounds i get into a nightmare of sides

If i use androgenic compounds like tren becayse my e2 are high due to 300mg test and.no.AI i get leaking nipples in a matter of a few days. Very unpleasent.

I think we should take a step back and focus on the fundamental principles discussed in the article. And let me preface this by stating that not everyone aromatizes in an identical manner, some folks are more estrogenic than others.

However, with that said, I have yet to come across anyone who I haven't been able to all but ween off of AIs within a matter of months.

Step One, create a stable hormonal baseline in your body. This can simply be TRT and nothing else. Step Two, add an androgen that your body responds well to. This can be primobolan, winstrol, masteron, etc.

Step Three, gently increase the testosterone dose until the body starts to give signs it is unhappy. Gently increase androgen dose.

The most common problems I've seen often involve making hormone changes too quickly, or too aggressively. Secondarily, often folks design stacks that are no good for their bodies. It takes time to learn the ins and outs of one's response, but once you do, you'll be able to run much higher doses without the need for things such as ancillaries.

 

[Sampei]

I think we should take a step back and focus on the fundamental principles discussed in the article. And let me preface this by stating that not everyone aromatizes in an identical manner, some folks are more estrogenic than others.

However, with that said, I have yet to come across anyone who I haven't been able to all but ween off of AIs within a matter of months.

Step One, create a stable hormonal baseline in your body. This can simply be TRT and nothing else. Step Two, add an androgen that your body responds well to. This can be primobolan, winstrol, masteron, etc.

Step Three, gently increase the testosterone dose until the body starts to give signs it is unhappy. Gently increase androgen dose.

The most common problems I've seen often involve making hormone changes too quickly, or too aggressively. Secondarily, often folks design stacks that are no good for their bodies. It takes time to learn the ins and outs of one's response, but once you do, you'll be able to run much higher doses without the need for things such as ancillaries.

I can stay off AI with 150mg a Week of test.

I can try your method but that. Means staying on for a very long time, i mean the whole increase slowly etc will take few months... doesnt it?

What i'm gonna do when i have found a way of using higher test or deca? Start the blast from there? Then stay on another 3 months?

I'm misuderstanding the whole thing probabily.

You all can't understand how jealous i'm of the ppl that can.get away with no AI

 

[ChestRockwell]

@Sampei No doubt this can be frustrating, but I think your willingness to exert patience will pay off in the long run.

Ideally, using short esters can increase the experimentation window timelines. But even using long esters can be done over the course of a month or two depending upon your level of development.

So, here is a high-level outline, not to be used as an actual template but more just to give you an idea and ensure we are clear with one another (assuming you are transitioning out of a cruise and have stable 150mg/week TestE levels):

150mg/week - TestE
(one week later)
150mg/week - TestE
200mg/week - MastE
(two weeks later)
300mg/week - TestE
200mg/week - MastE
(assess)
(assuming no estrogen symptoms)
(two weeks later)
450mg/week - TestE
200mg/week - MastE
(assess)
(assuming estrogen starting to creep up)
(two weeks later)
450mg/week - TestE
400mg/week - MastE

etc...etc...

 

[Sampei]

I can try that. You dont like tren? Cuz you never spoke about it in this thread.

I just wonder in case i find a way to use test without AI why not use tren as well in the mix with masteron and just cut and bulk with it.

@Sampei No doubt this can be frustrating, but I think your willingness to exert patience will pay off in the long run.

Ideally, using short esters can increase the experimentation window timelines. But even using long esters can be done over the course of a month or two depending upon your level of development.

So, here is a high-level outline, not to be used as an actual template but more just to give you an idea and ensure we are clear with one another (assuming you are transitioning out of a cruise and have stable 150mg/week TestE levels):

150mg/week - TestE
(one week later)
150mg/week - TestE
200mg/week - MastE
(two weeks later)
300mg/week - TestE
200mg/week - MastE
(assess)
(assuming no estrogen symptoms)
(two weeks later)
450mg/week - TestE
200mg/week - MastE
(assess)
(assuming estrogen starting to creep up)
(two weeks later)
450mg/week - TestE
400mg/week - MastE

etc...etc...

 

[ChestRockwell]

I can try that. You dont like tren? Cuz you never spoke about it in this thread.

Trenbolone has its time and place, however not for basic growth stacks. There are a million reasons for this which I'll get further into when I release my updated "Science of Trenbolone" article.

But, generally speaking, to fit with our thesis on limiting systemic stress, trenbolone is not the best fit except in very certain situations which also normally include heavy insulin and growth hormone usage.

However, if the individual is at that point then they are likely out of scope for this particular article, aimed more for beginner and intermediate level bodybuilder types. Advanced growth protocols often just throw as much at the body as it can handle, which is not my M.O.

I just wonder in case i find a way to use test without AI why not use tren as well in the mix with masteron and just cut and bulk with it.

Trenbolone exerts direct and indirect effects on numerous hormones including estrogen, progesterone, and others. For someone sensitive to overall hormonal balance issues, it is one of the last hormones I'd advise using...

 

[gr8whitetrukker]

Advanced growth protocols often just throw as much at the body as it can handle, which is not my M.O.

certain situations which also normally include heavy insulin and growth hormone usage.

Cant wait