HCG and SERMS Simultaneously

[Nicolaus]

Hello meso brothers,

Going to make this short so I don't lose your attention

Would you advise against or in favor of taking Nolvadex/Clomid and HCG at the same time in hopes of bringing the HPTA back to life?

I have had low LH, FSH, and low test for a very long time now (about 5 years) and have never taken any form of steroids. To be specific, my last labs were:

<1.5 mIU/mL FSH
2.4 mIU/mL LH
310ng/dL of total testosterone.
Prolactin 7.7 ng/ml
TSH 1.25 uIU/mL
T4 1.42 ng/dl
SHBG 14 nmol/L
Albumin 4.1 g/dL

*Secondary Hypogonadism perhaps?*

Age 25

Symptoms started manifesting while I was taking my second course of Accutane (age 19) and obviously still feel the same today. I know many people will not attribute this medicine to my fucked up labs but just wanted to point this out there

Regardless if accutane did fuck up my hpta or endocrine system in some way, would you guys advise taking hcg and SERMS together for restarting the HPTA? Why or why not (physiological explanation if possible)

And I will not use AI right now, even though I do have exemestane at hand, simply because I don't even have any testosterone to begin with that is aromatizing to estrogen.

And of course, I will getting labs little later on to see if hcg and nolvadex are working and keep you guys updated if interested.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post and all input is appreciated.

 

[BirdieNumNum]

I'm not 100%, but I don't see the point in taking any SERMS whilst taking HCG. Im pretty sure your HPTA will not respond well to the SERMS because it will detect the HCG.... Best off taking them after mate.

 

[G2Ready]

Hcg will not help your pituitary produce more LH or FSH--it only mimics the LH signal- and will actually lower those numbers as your future bw will show

Serms will help increase LH & FSH UNLESS the body thinks it already has enough (wich it will because your injecting Hcg)

Sending your body mixed signals.....

Now will it help you? Probably not.....

There are doctors prescribing Hcg&hmg&clomid for fertility.... but again that goal is not restoring hpta function.

 

[G2Ready]

Clomid Profile

Nolvadex Profile

hCG Profile

 

[master.on]

1 HCG may shut down your LH/FSH
this is normal
no evidence the pituitary can PERMANENTLY shutdown
but testis do

2 HCG may increase Estradiol
so SERM may be needed to CONTROL ESTROGEN while on HCG, not much to speed pituitary recovery of LH/FSH production

 

[G2Ready]

^^^ by using a serm you would be "managing" estrogen

"Controlling" it would be arimidex or AI

 

[Docd187123]

1 HCG may shut down your LH/FSH
this is normal
no evidence the pituitary can PERMANENTLY shutdown
but testis do

I guess you've never heard of secondary hypogonadism.

2 HCG may increase Estradiol
so SERM may be needed to CONTROL ESTROGEN while on HCG, not much to speed pituitary recovery of LH/FSH production

I guess you don't have a clue as to why SERMs are used in PCT.

 

[mands]

^^^ by using a serm you would be "managing" estrogen

"Controlling" it would be arimidex or AI

You manage E2 with an AI

You combat GYNO with a SERM(Nolva)

mands

 

[master.on]

I guess you've never heard of secondary hypogonadism.
This is rare and anyone with secondary hypogonadism (low Testosterone, low-normal LH) should go see a doctor immediately and not rely on Internet boards advice or self medicate.


I guess you don't have a clue as to why SERMs are used in PCT.

Of course I know.
SERMs make the pituitary "believe"there's less Estrogen circulating, so it increases LH/FSH production, which in turn should increase Testosterone production IF the testis are able to respond.

The problem is that this SLIGHTLY increased LH may not be enough for people whose testis atrophied from long-term, high-dose steroid usage.
So only HCG at high enough doses to provide SUPRAphysiological LH/FSH activity can help get testis fully back to function

In simple words
Clomid/Nolva/any other SERMS
won't consistently increase LH/FSH to say, 2x normal levels in ALL males
and this 2x LH levels still fall short to properly stimulate the testis. So there's just no way around HCG.

 

[G2Ready]

You manage E2 with an AI

You combat GYNO with a SERM(Nolva)

mands

Better way to put it---- that's better way of expressing what I was thinking

P.s don't text and drive

 

[Docd187123]

Of course I know.
SERMs make the pituitary "believe"there's less Estrogen circulating, so it increases LH/FSH production, which in turn should increase Testosterone production IF the testis are able to respond.

So are you trying to say the testes can respond to and LH like analog such as HCG but they can't or might not be able to respond to endogenous LH made from the pituitary?

The problem is that this SLIGHTLY increased LH may not be enough for people whose testis atrophied from long-term, high-dose steroid usage.
So only HCG at high enough doses to provide SUPRAphysiological LH/FSH activity can help get testis fully back to function

Bullshit. There have been plenty of bloods posted here where SERMs alone have given supra physiological ranges of LH and FSH. SERMs have been used for recovery for years before HCG was introduced. I guess we should tell all those people who recovered with SERMs that they're not really recovered bc they didn't use HCG.

In simple words
Clomid/Nolva/any other SERMS
won't consistently increase LH/FSH to say, 2x normal levels in ALL males
and this 2x LH levels still fall short to properly stimulate the testis. So there's just no way around HCG.

So you pull a bullshit number of "2x normal range" out of your ass and now that's the baseline needed for recovery? What else have you got stuffed up your ass lol?

 

[mands]

Better way to put it---- that's better way of expressing what I was thinking

P.s don't text and drive

Haha yes DO NOT text and drive.

I would like to add raloxifene can be used as an alternative to Nolva.

mands

 

[G2Ready]

Haha yes DO NOT text and drive.

I would like to add raloxifene can be used as an alternative to Nolva.

mands

U know if that's liver toxic.... or less than nolva?

 

[mands]

U know if that's liver toxic.... or less than nolva?

I've seen very few cases that caused any damage. I would say less toxic than Nolvadex from studies I've read. I can look into it though.

mands

 

[G2Ready]

I've seen very few cases that caused any damage. I would say less toxic than Nolvadex from studies I've read. I can look into it though.

mands

I'll research it up... I was just curious of the benifit

 

[mands]

I'll research it up... I was just curious of the benifit

I've never ran it personaly. From what I read from users it seems more beneficial all around.

Again I'll try and pull some studies. @Docd187123 might have a few handy.

mands

 

[Docd187123]

I've never ran it personaly. From what I read from users it seems more beneficial all around.

Again I'll try and pull some studies. @Docd187123 might have a few handy.

mands

Ive seen nothing to suggest it's worth worrying about its liver toxicity although those with existing liver damage do need to be careful.

 

[Nicolaus]

You manage E2 with an AI

You combat GYNO with a SERM(Nolva)

mands

Could AI be used to combat gyno?

 

[Docd187123]

Could AI be used to combat gyno?

Not effectively no. One study found AI's to be no more effective at treating/preventing gyno than placebo. Another study only found them minimally effective. it's bc you can get gyno even with low E2.

Dr. Scally used an analogy a while back which is also referenced in the medical literature. It's not perfect but works for our purposes.

Imagine you have a castle being invaded by marauders. The marauders are E2. Do you kill 50% of the marauders (use an ai) to prevent a seige or do you block the gates to the castle (use a serm).

 

[master.on]

So are you trying to say the testes can respond to and LH like analog such as HCG but they can't or might not be able to respond to endogenous LH made from the pituitary?



Bullshit. There have been plenty of bloods posted here where SERMs alone have given supra physiological ranges of LH and FSH. SERMs have been used for recovery for years before HCG was introduced. I guess we should tell all those people who recovered with SERMs that they're not really recovered bc they didn't use HCG.



So you pull a bullshit number of "2x normal range" out of your ass and now that's the baseline needed for recovery? What else have you got stuffed up your ass lol?

I'll add another one
if given enough time, SERMs don't bring your Testosterone to the upper-normal range (or higher) you haven't fully recovered
and your natural T will drop to low-normal upon SERM discontinuation.

Not effectively no. One study found AI's to be no more effective at treating/preventing gyno than placebo. Another study only found them minimally effective. it's bc you can get gyno even with low E2.

Dr. Scally used an analogy a while back which is also referenced in the medical literature. It's not perfect but works for our purposes.

Imagine you have a castle being invaded by marauders. The marauders are E2. Do you kill 50% of the marauders (use an ai) to prevent a seige or do you block the gates to the castle (use a serm).

Absolutely true.

But there's a practicality issue
Unlike AIs, it ain't advisable to use SERMs for many months nonstop.
For example SERM visual effects can make nighttime driving dangerous.