HCG and SERMS Simultaneously

[BirdieNumNum]

Please don't text and drive funny as fuck.. SERMS really do make it hard to see properly in the dark for re for real

 

[Docd187123]

I'll add another one
if given enough time, SERMs don't bring your Testosterone to the upper-normal range (or higher) you haven't fully recovered
and your natural T will drop to low-normal upon SERM discontinuation.

Without openly admitting you were wrong, you have now moved the goal posts lolol.

You say SERMs can't raise TT to upper normal range then proceed to say TT drops to low-normal range. Which one is it? If TT doesn't raise to upper normal range then how in the fuck does it DROP back into a low-normal range?

Anyway, several studies have shown clomid can restore TT function and alleviate symptoms even after discontinuation in certain males suffering from secondary hypogonadism.

Absolutely true.

But there's a practicality issue
Unlike AIs, it ain't advisable to use SERMs for many months nonstop.
For example SERM visual effects can make nighttime driving dangerous.

Bullshit again. The eyesight problem is mainly with clomid not nolva and since you don't take clomid to prevent gyno.....

Also, from a practicality perspective, AIs don't prevent or treat gyno to any effective extent, so your point is moot.

Furthermore, studies done on clomid long term (up to 12months that I'm aware of) showed no serious side effects.

 

[BirdieNumNum]

True I only ever had visual problems off 50mg clomid ED

 

[Nicolaus]

Not effectively no. One study found AI's to be no more effective at treating/preventing gyno than placebo. Another study only found them minimally effective. it's bc you can get gyno even with low E2.

Dr. Scally used an analogy a while back which is also referenced in the medical literature. It's not perfect but works for our purposes.

Imagine you have a castle being invaded by marauders. The marauders are E2. Do you kill 50% of the marauders (use an ai) to prevent a seige or do you block the gates to the castle (use a serm).

Good anaology. I would use both in the castle analogy if allowed ...

Excuse my ignorance but..what specifically causes gyno then. And what is the difference, between that cause and E2?

Thank you for your sharing your knowledge

 

[Nicolaus]

You say SERMs can't raise TT to upper normal range then proceed to say TT drops to low-normal range. Which one is it? If TT doesn't raise to upper normal range then how in the fuck does it DROP back into a low-normal range?

Anyway, several studies have shown clomid can restore TT function and alleviate symptoms even after discontinuation in certain males suffering from secondary hypogonadism.


Furthermore, studies done on clomid long term (up to 12months that I'm aware of) showed no serious side effects.

That is great to hear. From those studies you have read, how long did the researchers wait till they checked the bloodwork of the subjects to confirm TT function stayed restored? Also, do you happen to have the links to the studies?

In regards to hcg use, here is a study that keeps me hopeful Penile Growth in Response to Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) Treatment in Patients with Idiopathic Hypogonadotrophic Hypogonadism

After 24 weeks of cessation, subjects still had elevated testosterone if I remember correctly. That's about 6 months! : o

Do you think taking both nolvadex and hcg would push me back a few steps instead of benefiting? I would assume they would work in sync (wishful thinking) due to their functions.

 

[Docd187123]

Good anaology. I would use both in the castle analogy if allowed ...

Excuse my ignorance but..what specifically causes gyno then. And what is the difference, between that cause and E2?

Thank you for your sharing your knowledge

"The mechanism is usually a decrease in androgen effect or an increase in estrogen effect (eg, decrease in androgen production, increase in estrogen production, androgen blockade, displacement of estrogenfrom sex-hormone binding globulin, androgen receptor defects)."

Gynecomastia - Genitourinary Disorders - Merck Manuals Professional Edition

 

[Docd187123]

That is great to hear. From those studies you have read, how long did the researchers wait till they checked the bloodwork of the subjects to confirm TT function stayed restored? Also, do you happen to have the links to the studies?

It was about 4-5months after discontinuation of treatment IIRC. Here's one good read. It's lengthy, but good

Alternatives to testosterone replacement: testosterone restoration McCullough A - Asian J Androl

In regards to hcg use, here is a study that keeps me hopeful Penile Growth in Response to Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) Treatment in Patients with Idiopathic Hypogonadotrophic Hypogonadism

After 24 weeks of cessation, subjects still had elevated testosterone if I remember correctly. That's about 6 months! : o

Do you think taking both nolvadex and hcg would push me back a few steps instead of benefiting? I would assume they would work in sync (wishful thinking) due to their functions.

I would look into Dr. A ally's protocol which involves HCG, clomid, nolva, and blood testing at certain points. Don't skimp out on the bloods, they're crucial towards an effective recovery protocol.

 

[BirdieNumNum]

I done several power pcts to even begin to see progress.

 

[Nicolaus]

Anyone heard of selective estrogen receptor downregulator/degrader??