hcg and testosterone levels - Bill Roberts

[Jack Herer]

Hey Bill,

once I read a post from you (cannot find it now) where you said that depending on the dosage of hcg, it would add an equivalent amount of testosterone, similar to an injection of 100mg test per week, which is basically maintenance levels.

I understand this could vary a lot, but what kind of dosage you think it would be needed to achieve such levels in most people?

Thank you for your attention!

 

[Bill Roberts]

Typically, an amount coming to no more than about 1400-1750 IU per week if testicular function is good.

Not that those numbers are that exact: they just represent 200-250 IU per day, or 500 IU every other day, or 500 IU 3x/week.

Some individuals have primary hypogonadism that cannot be corrected, and in these instances HCG may not give this much effect.

But if natural T production was fine going into a cycle and HCG is used throughout, I think it's fair to figure these amounts of HCG as being "worth" to the cycle about 100 mg/week of testosterone and possibly somewhat more. Not as an exact figure, but a good figure for planning purposes.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

That sounds like a good estimate.

For a study, see: https://thinksteroids.com/community/posts/773890

Healthy young men (n = 10) aged 21–29 years old with a BMI of 18.8–26.2 kg/m2 were recruited in the study. Three hCG injections (2000 I.U.) were performed at days 0, 2 and 4 between 7 am and 8 am just after urine and serum collection.

The mean level in all subjects of serum testosterone increased from 14.1 to 16.8 nmol/L 12 h after the first injection and to 21.4 nmol/L after 24 h. At the second injection time the mean value was 27.4 nmol/L and increased to a maximum of 30.7 nmol/L observed 24 h after the second injection. 12 h after the last injection, the mean serum concentration was slightly decreased to 29.5 nmol/L.

Interestingly, the mean testosterone level in serum was significantly decreased twelve days after the last injection dose compared to the basal level (p < 0.001, paired t-test) with 9.8 nmol/L.

The serum LH level decreased along the study due to the negative feedback on the hypothalamo-pituitary axis (HPA) performed by the testosterone up regulation. The average LH basal level of 3.4 mIU/mL remained stable 12 h after the first injection and decreased to 1.7 mIU/mL after 24 h and 1.2 mIU/mL after 48 h. The average LH concentration remained low 24 h after the second injection and 12 h after the last injection with 1.5 mIU/mL and 1.1 mIU/mL, respectively. Twelve days after the last injection, the LH level among volunteers was not significantly different from the basal concentrations measured before the first treatment.


Also, check out: https://thinksteroids.com/community/posts/786868

 

[softballer]

In injecting 3 times a wk? Glut, delt, and quad? For how long would you run it Bill? Are we talking about running this if your not fully recovered or running this while your on cycle??

 

[Jack Herer]

Thank you Bill and Dr. Scally for your help and opinions.

I've been reading some of this studies posted by Dr. Scally and it seems Bill it's right on spot.

500iu eod seems the best option to mantain testosterone levels around 800ng/dl.

that being said, I have another question: is it likely with this dose of hcg, to have a problem with estradiol (above 30pg/ml)? In these studies I couldn't find anything specific about estradiol levels.

another question, does estradiol levels tend to be stable or vary constantly like testosterone?

Thanks!

 

[Bill Roberts]

I think no more likely, for a given individual, than when having the resulting testosterone level by any other means.

Some do have high aromatase activity and will have a high estradiol level with this testosterone level. Others don't, and will not. It's definitely individual.

I haven't seen a study on it but I expect that estradiol levels are pretty stable on an hour-to-hour basis, as the half-life is much longer than that of testosterone.

But if on a long term basis testosterone level changes -- for example, there's a period of chronically low testosterone -- then estradiol tends to change along with it in the same direction. But where testosterone is fairly stable, so is estradiol.

 

[Bill Roberts]

In injecting 3 times a wk? Glut, delt, and quad? For how long would you run it Bill? Are we talking about running this if your not fully recovered or running this while your on cycle??

HCG is most conveniently injected with a 29 gauge insulin needle. Glutes usually aren't chosen for that, though they are possible if reasonably lean. Sub-Q is also possible, for those who prefer it.

Most preferably HCG is used during the cycle.

In some instances, for individuals with chronically low testosterone, ongoing HCG-only therapy can be effective and a good solution.

 

[MR10X]

Is there a difference in injecting SC in the glutes and the abdomin. seems like they would both be effective.I dont think how fast the compound is absorbed into the blood stream is that important.I have read where insulin is absorbed more quickly when done SC in the abdomin,which i can see where absorbtion time is more critical.

 

[Jack Herer]

I think no more likely, for a given individual, than when having the resulting testosterone level by any other means.

Some do have high aromatase activity and will have a high estradiol level with this testosterone level. Others don't, and will not. It's definitely individual.

I haven't seen a study on it but I expect that estradiol levels are pretty stable on an hour-to-hour basis, as the half-life is much longer than that of testosterone.

But if on a long term basis testosterone level changes -- for example, there's a period of chronically low testosterone -- then estradiol tends to change along with it in the same direction. But where testosterone is fairly stable, so is estradiol.

thank you again Bill, you are always very helpful!

from my understanding, if one desires to cycle with a non-aromatising compound, let's say oxandrolone, turinabol, masteron, primobolan, or even tren ace as the base of that cycle, one could use hcg to mantain normal levels of testosterone (and estradiol), libido and testicular function, which in turn will make recovery faster.

I think I got it.

 

[Bill Roberts]

Yes.

For any cycle, maintaining testicular function during the cycle is useful for that reason, but as you point out, with non-aromatizing cycles there's even more reason.

It works very well to do this.

 

[Bill Roberts]

Is there a difference in injecting SC in the glutes and the abdomin. seems like they would both be effective.I dont think how fast the compound is absorbed into the blood stream is that important.I have read where insulin is absorbed more quickly when done SC in the abdomin,which i can see where absorbtion time is more critical.

There really should be no significant difference in speed of absorption, and amount of absorption will be 100% regardless of sub-Q location or IM location.

 

[MR10X]

There really should be no significant difference in speed of absorption, and amount of absorption will be 100% regardless of sub-Q location or IM location.

I was speaking of SC in the glute or hip in the fat tissue with a insulin syringe.

 

[Bill Roberts]

I believe one should avoid injecting into fat. It's possible to inject sub-Q into an area that has a lot of fat, but the injection isn't actually into the fat when done properly.

If it's actually sub-Q it shouldn't matter where the site is.

 

[MR10X]

I have injected Melanotan 2 into my glute,which doesnt have a lot of fat with a 1/2 insulin syringe at 90 degrees to the skin,i could feel the effects of the PT 141 with in a half hour.Flushing of the skin, spontanious errection and eventual tanning from the melanotan. I found that it is just as quickly absorbed as it is in the stomach. Thats been my personal experience with something that has obvious effects like Melanotan 2.