HCG during cycle; Clomid, Nolvadex, and Clenbuterol as PCT?

[Ironbender]

I was advised by one of the posters here that I can use HCG towards the end of the cycle or simply means within the cycle. And he seems right after doing my research. Now, I would like to know if anyone ever used Clomid (100 mg, then 50 mg) and Nolvadex (20 mg) with Clenbuterol (2 weeks on, 2weeks off, 2 weeks off)?

 

[Jimmyinkedup]

Ok 500IU weekly that's one tenth not a thrid, moreover since the half life is 24 hours, after three-four days the HCG level will approximate 25-12% which is fully inadequate. Through this process:
1) I've looked up the Beta agonist information previously which is WHY I know there's study supporting anabolic activity in humans!
2) I've answered your question about why FIVE HALF LIVES are important.
3) I explained the importance of hormonal competitive inhibition as it applies to PCT
3) AI's were discussed to enhance your vague understanding of their effects on E-2 and testosterone both during and after a cycle
4) I've provided rationale for my initial statement regarding SERM's and whether there is evidence to support their combined use in PCT.
In summary I've REBUTTED EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOUR ORIGINAL ASSERTIONS and throughout this process the only thing you have done is to RELY ON OTHERS, as a scapegoat for your LIMITED FUND OF KNOWLEDGE, and ADMIT YOUR LAZY. Well you have certainly have convinced me of the latter, LMAO!

Cute story. Now lets take a look at what you have really done.
1- Changed your tune on beta agonists and their anabolic activity in humans - which you previously were arguing with me about for the ske of oh i dunno not looking like a fool since you thought the application in pct was to offest water retention or some BS.
2- Somehow convinced yourself that even though the active life of oh say anastrozole is 48 hrs that the terminal elimination half life is what needs to be taken into consideration- Nonsense!
3- Competitive inhibition is a freaking non issue when one is shut down from exogenous test administration and when doses of hcg will not raise test levels out of normal endogenous range ..even in combo with an ai ...because an aui ..when you are shut down ..doesnt do a damn thing to testosterone levels.
4- Once again you came at me arguing there was no benefit to combining serms ..only to have to backpedal and admit there is some very prudent applicable data that suggests it may be beneficial.

In summary , as I said, while you have the textbook knowledge on the endocrine system and pharmacodynamics - however you lack the knowledge to take into consideration the presence of exogenous testosterone and the effects it has in changing these pharmacodynamics.I dunno perhaps even the basic common sense to take dosage amounts into consideration when making your inaccurate ascertations.
Obviously , as you have dodged my real world experience questions like the plague - you have none.
On top of that factor in that Dr Scally - probably the foremost expert in reversing steroid induced andropause recommends a very similar protocol (if not identical) to the one i use.
Well I'll let people come to their own conclusions about your arrogance, ignorance, and what they should do for their pct. fuk sake man put your overinflated ego aside here ...we are talking about people recovering testosterone production ... fairly important health consideration. Yet you are more concerned with being "right"at any cost...but the fact is you are wrong on many countss. Which is why slowly your contentions on several points are changing..because mine are accurate...yours are textbook fueled speculation with some profound ignorance thrown in on top of no practical personal or professional application on your part.
Good Day Dr Jim !

 

[solo47]

Ask a simple question... and it turns into WWIII of information, misinformation, disinformation, and a whole lot of personal interpretation.

To the OP: Just attend to the simple answers and make your own choices. Both of these guys are knowledgeable but they won't bend to each other's perspective.

Solo

 

[JimStevens]

I'll stick with the guy who has actually done a pct personally. Especially when he obviously knows what he is talking about.
I will say this, i did find it a bit hilarious that the guy who never did a pct successful or otherwise told the guy who has obviously done successful pct's that he is "relying on others" to support his contentions. O RLY? :wtf:

 

[Dr JIM]

JS how presumptious of you, yet whether I have or have not done PCT or cycles matters not (yet I have done both). However, how many patients do I treat and evaluate for, "Cycles and PCT" in more than twenty years of practice in sports medicine, more than you or Jimmynonot can count. However I've had discussions like this previously where a "know it all" like "Jimmynonot" cites experience as evidence yet is unable to support their assertions based on the literature. Moreover regardless of my documentation to the contrary they hold steadfast to arciform and word of mouth beliefs to support their "experiences". Why Jimmynonot probably believes the sun setting sky is orange-yellow because of the "reflection from Mars" also, rest assured, I will not attempt to convince him otherwise!

 

[Pericles]

So again..Have you ever done a pct ?

Jim, I like you a lot, and quite frankly, I am not a big fan of Jimmy, but he is right on this one. We" lab rats" have actually run the tests in the real world. Some guys come up with a theory, one which has been resoundingly proved wrong in my real world experience, that one only needs one serm. Take it from me, I have run Clomid alone, and Nolva alone. The reslts are much, much better if using both.

Also, we must remember that very few people will run tiny amounts of HCG throught the cycle, as that ends w/ lots of lef over HCG, which is hard to get (OK, I know one ugl that has it, and it is a $200 min purchase). That is why I usually hav guys run it at the end.

It is also true that HCG needs to clear before the serms (2) will work. I have my guys start srms one day before the last 2K IU shot of HCG, and stay on a good amount for 10 days, and then less for 10 day although I might keep Nolva at 20 mg for a while, and then take 10 mg for up to a month.

 

[Pericles]

JS how presumptious of you, yet whether I have or have not done PCT or cycles matters not (yet I have done both). However, how many patients do I treat and evaluate for, "Cycles and PCT" in more than twenty years of practice in sports medicine, more than you or Jimmynonot can count. However I've had discussions like this previously where a "know it all" like "Jimmynonot" cites experience as evidence yet is unable to support their assertions based on the literature. Moreover regardless of my documentation to the contrary they hold steadfast to arciform and word of mouth beliefs to support their "experiences". Why Jimmynonot probably believes the sun setting sky is orange-yellow because of the "reflection from Mars" also, rest assured, I will not attempt to convince him otherwise!

Sorry my friend, but again you are wrong. In 20 years I have worked with probably more than 100 people....I also experimented upon myself.

Having said that, I have tons of respect for anyone who made it through Med school and residency. I went through hell for my PhD. But asserting that that training trumps real world experience (IE reality) it is a classic ergo hoc propter hoc argument. I see one of the top experts in the country, and he, while an excellent authority, is learning things now that I knew 15 years ago. I knew Dan Duchaine (he was a morphine addict, btw....but brilliant, IMO). He was the first to suggest clomid for HPTA recovery.

Demanding literature as proof is not a valid position, as this area is massively understudied.

 

[Dr JIM]

I also run lab tests and have not found any difference in recovery combining TWO SERMS and in my opinion the literature which I have referenced supports me. To maintain steady state levels of any drug the dosing interval needs to meet or be less than the drugs have life.
Since the half life of HCG is between 24-36 hours twice weekly dosing will not achieve steady state levels and results in levels similar to "hills and valleys" which is suboptimal therapeutically.
However if you would rather discover the most effective means of PCT absent using existing literature and thru "experimentation" that's your prerogative. Nonetheless, rest assured that's WHY research and citations are so important, because they establish a standard or benchmark rather than the chaos which would occur if each patient, doctor or scientist just "did their own thing", wonderful!

 

[Dr JIM]

Oh unequivocally this discussions or debates I've had with Jimmy, and others, are NOT about whom is right or wrong but bonified attempt to establish some form of consensus, such that many may benefit from the efforts of the few. Unfortunately that did not occur in this instance, but I must believe that the explanations offered by both parties, in addition to the process, is potential learning material for those whom visit this forum with less exposure and or experience! Jimmy I do thank ya for maintaining a certain degree composure and civility (which I've been told can be quite difficult when I'm yanking on an experienced fellas tail like yourself)!

 

[Sworder]

My opinion on the things discussed:
Clenbuterol isn't "anti-catabolic" or "anabolic" at the doses used in humans.
HCG @ 250iu x2/week when it hasn't been used prior won't help much with bringing the testicles back.
You don't need to wait 5 half lives, drugs will work/stop working during their active life in a dose dependent fashion.
I would prefer two SERMs.
An AI during PCT can be a good thing.

I am not taking any sides, as I think that both of you gentlemen are wrong... And both of you gentlemen are right

 

[Dr JIM]

Your insight is always appreciated, Sworder!

 

[Jimmyinkedup]

Dr Jim - Id like to think everyone benefits from discussions/debates such as this one. I see nothing wrong with it and dont take your differing opinions personal. It is ok to agree to disagree. Even adamantly.

Sworder - I just want to point out 250ius - 2x/week on cycle up to pct is not to "bring the testicles back". It is , if you will , to maintain some function , low dose avoiding possible desensitization. The goal isnt to use it to get Testicular function (using term loosely) to where it would be off cycle or in an hcg monotherapy protocol. The goal is to maintain some functionality so the recovery process is easier. In my experience it seems to work well. Even in the very unscientific area of a noticeable difference in testicular atrophy. It def assists of makes easier the pct recovery process.

At any rate goal wasnt to rekindle or start another debate...but to explain the thought process behind the low dose hcg on cycle up to pct. Of course there are diff protocol,. Some "blast"hcg immediately pre pct. I was always of the mindset that maintaining throughout was better than long tern non functionailty and the trying to restart from scratch by blasting hcg. High dose hcg is hairy when it comes to aromatization and e2 among other issues i see with it. Full cycle high dose hcg is definately not prudent in my mind for both reaons i mentioned - possible desensitization AND the added e2 issues that need managing.

 

[Michael Scally MD]

In the patients I treated post AAS, the greatest error by far is the failure to get labs. This is based on the false assumption their PCT was sound. If I had to pick one area of PCT that is most flawed it would be in the timing. SERMs, for the most part, are worthless if used while in the presence of elevated AAS for HPTA restoration. Once AIH is present, continued AAS use will only compound the problem.

 

[Pericles]

To the OP and everyone else: Please keep in mind that we are basically arguing about details. The larger points, we agree upon (IE the need for pct, etc.). The vast majority of knowledgeable guys on this forum (which is the best, btw) will tell you that running Clomid and Nolva both the fully restore the HPTA. Dr. Jim found an article that posits one only needs one. I can tell you, as a recovering academic, that there are lies, more lies, and then statistics which contradict what any one with and IQ over 60 knows to be false. I taught stats, so I can tell you that many many studies are poorly designed. That is why one should always look at measures of validity like ANOVA, margin of error, and T scores.

If I have the time, I will be glad to look at Dr Jims literature.

As I said eartlier, there are a boat load of guys, and this is not bro science, that will tell you unequivocaly, that you will recover HPTA function faster, and more completely w/ 2 serms.

 

[Pericles]

My final note, is that I consider Dr jim to be exceptionally knowledgeable. Please don't misinterpret the fact that I disagree w/ him on this one detail. I would say that overall I agree with him about 90% of the time.