HcG, Hmg, and Sertoli cells.

It seems that if the testes shut down and are not stimulated with hcg (or hmg, I guess) for a while, it takes much longer for them to respond to FSH, LH, or hcg/hmg then testicles that are constantly stimulated. Therefore, I guess low doses of hcg on cycle is probably worth my money.

Also, it seems testicle size has alot to do with treatment success. So, IF long term steroid abuse causes a long-term decrease in testicle size, that person would be a poor responder to LH, FSH, or hcg/hmg in regards to spermatogenesis (compare to someone whose nuts were bigger prior to treatment).

There are a lot more articles that pretty much say the same things as the ones above, a lot of emphasis on testicle size and on prior stimulation makes future stimulation more successful.
 
My anecdote is add in hMG at 37.5iu doses every once and a while. Maybe 37.5iu twice per week for 3 weeks. It can't hurt.

Also, use toremifene periodically. You should also consider stopping TRT for 4-6 weeks every few months and using higher doses hCG throughout the break. Even better if you can switch to test prop before the 4 week break so you have an actual ~3 weeks without any exogenous T

SERM (toremifene, avoid nolva and clomid) monotherapy is proven to increase sperm quality and raise TT, FT, LH, and FSH.

Yes, this is totallly guesswork Mr JIM. I am basing this on my Ouija board.
 
Long term androgen replacement therapy does not preclude gonadotrophin-induced improvement on spermatogenesis.
Hammar M1, Berg AA.

Author information
Abstract

A previously hypophysectomized man with azoospermia, who was on androgen replacement therapy since 11 years, was studied with regard to his intratesticular steroid conversion capacity in vitro after which he was given combined hCG/hMG therapy. Before therapy a steroid conversion pattern similar to that seen in prepubertal boys was found, i.e. a high proportion of 20 alpha-dihydroprogesterone was produced while only smaller amounts of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone was produced from the substrate 3H-progesterone. After only five weeks of hCG/hMG treatment, sperm counts and serum testosterone levels increased dramatically and a child was conceived. The steroid conversion pattern simultaneously switched to the mature, adult type with a low production of 20 alpha-dihydroprogesterone and large amounts of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone being produced in vitro. Thus gonadotrophin substitution therapy may still be very effective after long term androgen replacement.
 
Maintenance of spermatogenesis induced by HMG treatment by means of continuous HCG treatment in hypogonadotrophic men.
Johnsen SG.

Abstract
In a long-term hypophysectomized male HCG treatment was unable to initiate spermatogenesis. However, a spermatogenesis induced by HMG/HCG treatment could be maintained by HCG alone for 7 years with clinical fertility. In another hypogonadotrophic male HCG was also unable to initiate spermatogenesis. But a spermatogenesis once induced by HMG/HCG treatment could be maintained for more than one year with HCG alone. It is suggested that gonadotrophin treatment of the hypogonadotrophic male should consist of HMG + HCG until complete spermatogenesis is induced followed by maintenance treatment with HCG.
 
Endocrinology of the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis with particular reference to the hormonal control of spermatogenesis.
Matsumoto AM, Bremner WJ.

Abstract
The normal physiology of the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis in man is reviewed. According to current concepts, LH plays an important role in the initiation and maintenance of spermatogenesis by stimulating Leydig cell production of high concentrations of T within the testes. FSH is thought to be important in spermatid maturation (spermiogenesis) during the initiation of spermatogenesis by stimulation of Sertoli cells. Studies of selective gonadotrophin replacement in experimentally-induced hypogonadotrophic hypogonadal men demonstrate that qualitatively normal sperm production can be achieved by replacement of either LH or FSH alone, but both LH and FSH are necessary to maintain quantitatively normal spermatogenesis. Studies of gonadotrophin replacement in spontaneously-occurring hypogonadotrophic men suggest that the requirement for FSH activity to stimulate sperm production is greatest during the initiation of sperm production at the time of puberty. The initiation of spermatogenesis in postpubertal men with acquired hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism and the maintenance of spermatogenesis after its initiation can often be achieved with LH activity alone.
 
John,

What protocol for hcg/hmg would you recommend for someone on cycle and in thru pct?

I have always used 500iu/week while on cycle. The last four weeks of my cycle are short ester compounds. Following my cycle I do 2000iu EOD for 14 days then pct follows the third week after cycle ends.
 
John,

What protocol for hcg/hmg would you recommend for someone on cycle and in thru pct?

I have always used 500iu/week while on cycle. The last four weeks of my cycle are short ester compounds. Following my cycle I do 2000iu EOD for 14 days then pct follows the third week after cycle ends.

The million dollar question. I just found this article that I am going to post below. I'll bold the important stuff. Your on-cycle dose seems about right, your PCT seems overkill. It COULD be causing uneccesary desensitization of your Luteneizing Hormone-Receptors. 250 mg EOD seems to be a dose that would bring your Inter-testicular testosterone level to high-normal level. One of the papers I found and posted above concluded that Leydig cells maintain fertility exclusively and only by keeping your intertesticular testosterone level "normal."

"However, a spermatogenesis induced by HMG/HCG treatment could be maintained by HCG alone for 7 years with clinical fertility. In another hypogonadotrophic male HCG was also unable to initiate spermatogenesis. But a spermatogenesis once induced by HMG/HCG treatment could be maintained for more than one year with HCG alone."

Based on this, as long as you keep your testes from "shutting down" while on cycle, you wouldn't need a super huge dose to shock them back to life (idk if thats real or bro science anyways). A super huge dose seems unnecessary, because if you maintain your testes on cycly your waiting on your pituitary to produce more LH and FSH, not your testes. Your testes are good and receptive, titrating HCG lower rather than higher seems to be the way to get things normal again.

I don't know if having intertesticular-testosterone levels higher than normal has any benefit-it very well could, but it very well could be unecessary.
 
Dose-Dependent Increase in Intratesticular Testosterone by Very Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin in Normal Men with Experimental Gonadotropin Deficiency-(this one is new, 2010, newer than all the studies using massive doses)
M. Y. Roth, S. T. Page, K. Lin, B. D. Anawalt, A. M. Matsumoto, C. N. Snyder, B. T. Marck, W. J. Bremner, and J. K. Amory
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Abstract
Context and Objective: In men with infertility secondary to gonadotropin deficiency, treatment with relatively high dosages of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) stimulates intratesticular testosterone (IT-T) biosynthesis and spermatogenesis. Previously we found that lower dosages of hCG stimulated IT-T to normal. However, the minimal dose of hCG needed to stimulate IT-T and the dose-response relationship between very low doses of hCG and IT-T and serum testosterone in normal men is unknown.

Design, Setting, Patients, and Intervention: We induced experimental gonadotropin deficiency in 37 normal men with the GnRH antagonist acyline and randomized them to receive one of four low doses of hCG: 0, 15, 60, or 125 IU sc every other day or 7.5 g daily testosterone gel for 10 d. Testicular fluid was obtained by percutaneous aspiration for steroid measurements at baseline and after 10 d of treatment and correlated with contemporaneous serum hormone measurements.

Results: Median (25th, 75th percentile) baseline Inter-testicular Testosterone was 2508 nmol/liter (1753, 3502 nmol/liter). Inter-testicular Testosterone concentrations increased in a dose-dependent manner with very low-dosage hCG administration from 77 nmol/liter (40, 122 nmol/liter) to 923 nmol/liter (894, 1017 nmol/liter) in the 0- and 125-IU groups, respectively (P < 0.001). Moreover, serum hCG was significantly correlated with both IT-T and serum testosterone (P < 0.01).

Conclusion: Doses of hCG far lower than those used clinically increase IT-T concentrations in a dose-dependent manner in normal men with experimental gonadotropin deficiency. Assessment of IT-T provides a valuable tool to investigate the hormonal regulation of spermatogenesis in man.

Intratesticular testosterone (IT-T) is essential for spermatogenesis. In men with infertility secondary to hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism, injections of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG), which mimics the activity of LH, stimulates the testicular biosynthesis of testosterone. Treatment with hCG (often in combination with injections of FSH) leads to spermatogenesis and fertility in approximately two thirds of men (1). In rodents, 75% reductions in IT-T are still compatible with normal spermatogenesis; however, sperm production falls off sharply below this threshold (2,3,4). However, the minimum concentration of IT-T necessary for spermatogenesis in man is unknown. This may be relevant in male hormonal contraceptive development because spermatogenesis is not consistently suppressed in some men, despite marked suppression of gonadotropins. In these men, persistently elevated IT-T concentrations may allow for ongoing spermatogenesis despite gonadotropin suppression (5,6,7,8). A better understanding of the relationship between low concentrations of IT-T and spermatogenesis would be useful to optimize the treatment of male infertility and would inform efforts to develop a male hormonal contraceptive.

Understanding the intratesticular steroid environment in man is challenging. Until recently methods for measuring intratesticular hormone concentrations in men required testicular biopsy (9,10,11); therefore, prior studies were performed mainly in infertile men requiring testicular biopsy and general anesthesia for the evaluation and treatment of their condition. More recently the technique of fine-needle tissue aspiration has been used to obtain intratesticular fluid in normal men (5,12,13,14). This technique can be safely performed in the outpatient setting using local anesthesia without serious adverse effects. We previously used this technique to examine the dose-response relationship between hCG as a proxy for LH and IT-T in normal men. However, although the doses of hCG in our previous work were lower than those used to treat patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, IT-T concentrations were similar to those in untreated normal men (15). In addition, our previous work relied on exogenous testosterone to suppress the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis, and there was concern that the exogenous testosterone could potentially increase IT-T concentrations. Therefore, in this study, we experimentally induced low levels of IT-T in normal men using the GnRH antagonist, acyline, and subsequently stimulated testicular testosterone biosynthesis with very low doses of hCG, lower than we used previously. In addition, we included a group of men treated with exogenous testosterone to determine whether treatment with testosterone would affect intratesticular steroid concentrations. In this way, we sought to ascertain the dose-response relationship between very low doses of LH-like stimulation and IT-T in man.
 
I can't believe I missed this one.

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 May;90(5):2595-602. Epub 2005 Feb 15.
Low-dose human chorionic gonadotropin maintains intratesticular testosterone in normal men with testosterone-induced gonadotropin suppression.
Coviello AD1, Matsumoto AM, Bremner WJ, Herbst KL, Amory JK, Anawalt BD, Sutton PR, Wright WW, Brown TR, Yan X, Zirkin BR, Jarow JP.
Author information

Abstract
In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.
 
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