HCG Only Protocol and Secondary Hypogonadism

[mranak]

Krom--You have not noticed all the times I have stated that HCG as sole TRT does not provide the subjective benefits of TRT?

I must confess that I've missed that point. I've have noticed your repeated mentioning that a _SERM_ "as sole TRT does not provide the subjective benefits of TRT."

I don't recall you really mentioning just hCG for TRT though. I recall something about how when your standard regimen doesn't work, you sometimes increase the hCG and decrease the exogenous testosterone.

<shrug>

 

[forex]

bump.

 

[SWALE]

Oh.

 

[earthdog]

Krom--You have not noticed all the times I have stated that HCG as sole TRT does not provide the subjective benefits of TRT?

I heard him say it, your honor!

Thanks David, You seem to have an excellent knowledge of this subject. In order for me to present this properly to my Doc I have 2 questions for you (if you would be so kind) the answers you give me will help me in comming up with a starting point for the t-cream & hCG protocol.

1- How much (i know 500iu a day is WAT too much) hCG would be a good starting point each day, approx. range?

2- How much t-cream each day, again approx.?

Forex, Swale's starting protocol for Androgel is 5g per day. Once hormonal levels are stabilized and balanced, as verified by labs after 2 weeks, he puts them on 250IU of hcg every third day. These are very general guidelines and depend upon labs, symptoms, patient history, etc. He has also stated that everyone is different, and there is not a cookie cutter approach to TRT.

But if you broke that hcg dose down to daily, it would work out to something like 83IU of hcg per day.

 

[DavidZ]

Forex, Swale's starting protocol for Androgel is 5g per day. Once hormonal levels are stabilized and balanced, as verified by labs after 2 weeks, he puts them on 250IU of hcg every third day. These are very general guidelines and depend upon labs, symptoms, patient history, etc. He has also stated that everyone is different, and there is not a cookie cutter approach to TRT.

But if you broke that hcg dose down to daily, it would work out to something like 83IU of hcg per day.

The required dosage of T gel varies significantly for each man probably due to the rate of absorbtion through the skin. The required dosage of HCG varies even more from man to man. When you mix the 2 together the problem becomes far more complex.

Optimally, to best figure out your TRT/HCG combo dosages, you would want to know the dosage of each alone that would put your T into the upper normal range. Let's say that 10 g of T gel per day alone might put you there. And 700 IU/week (100 IU/day) of HCG alone might put you there. With that knowledge, you could prorate the full dosages to get the appropriate partial dosages. For example, you could apply 5 g of T gel and 50 IU of HCG per day. Or you could apply 7 g of T gel and 30 IU per day, etc. The relationships are probably not perfectly linear, but that's a good basis for setting initial dosages with the combo protocol.

 

[DavidZ]

Forex, Swale's starting protocol for Androgel is 5g per day. Once hormonal levels are stabilized and balanced, as verified by labs after 2 weeks, he puts them on 250IU of hcg every third day. These are very general guidelines and depend upon labs, symptoms, patient history, etc.

While I think the idea of a TRT/HGC combo protocol is great and that this approach is a good start, it has the following limitations, IMHO.

(a) The full equilibrium T gel dosage is established up front and validated by blood tests (that's a good thing), but the HCG dosage is "one size fits all," and

(b) T gel dosage should be reduced or eliminated on the day of an HCG shot to maintain consistent daily T levels.

HCG response varies greatly from man to man. The approach described in the above quote is optimal only for a man who has VERY LITTLE OR NO T RESPONSE to HCG.

Optimally, in order to set dosages with a TRT/HCG combo protocol, one would need to know the full equilibrium HCG dosage as well as the full equilibrium T gel dosage. Then you could prorate dosages optimally as described in another posting. See:
https://thinksteroids.com/community/posts/418184#post418184

There's probably no way to determine the full equilibrium HCG dosage other than to put the man on an HCG only protocol for a while and then fine tune the dosage based on blood tests. Even then, his equilibrium HCG dosage will probably drop over time as I discussed in another thread.

One could argue that 500 IU/week of HCG comprises a relatively small percentage of the total combined TRT/HCG protocol, and is therefore a minimal consideration dosage-wise. However, 500 IU/week exceeds my full equilibrium HCG dosage. I realize that my dosage is at the very low end of the scale for most men with secondary hypogonadism. Nonetheless, I would argue that 500 IU/week of HCG constitutes a significant portion of the full equilibrium dosage for many men.

He has also stated that everyone is different, and there is not a cookie cutter approach to TRT.

Exactly. Tricky stuff, eh?

 

[SWALE]

The dosing for the HCG is set to prodcue ITT (IntraTesticular Testosterone) levels around baseline, NOT for what it does to serum T.

 

[1cc]

The dosing for the HCG is set to prodcue ITT (IntraTesticular Testosterone) levels around baseline, NOT for what it does to serum T.

Based on the study in this link http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/5/2595 and considering IntraTesticular Testosterone, if one wanted to do daily HCG, then the ideal dosage would be approx. 200iu per day with a maximum of 250iu. Would this be a correct assumption?

Would there be any reason to use less than 200iu as is mentioned in this post:
https://thinksteroids.com/community/posts/378426

Would there be any reason to use more than 250iu?

 

[DavidZ]

Based on the study in this link http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/5/2595 and considering IntraTesticular Testosterone, if one wanted to do daily HCG, then the ideal dosage would be approx. 200iu per day with a maximum of 250iu. Would this be a correct assumption?

Would there be any reason to use less than 200iu as is mentioned in this post:
https://thinksteroids.com/community/posts/378426

Would there be any reason to use more than 250iu?

The ideal dosage is whatever puts your T in the upper normal range. The ideal dosage varies greatly from man to man.

200 to 250 IU per day of HCG would be a good starting dosage for an HCG only protocol. But the ideal dosage would be based on periodic blood tests.

 

[pmgamer18]

Good point now how do you tell if your doing to much T and Hcg by the blood tests being to high.
Phil

 

[DavidZ]

Good point now how do you tell if your doing to much T and Hcg by the blood tests being to high.
Phil

On a daily HCG only protocol it's pretty easy. You just look at your T result and adjust up or down from there, keeping in mind that how you feel is as important as the numerical result and that different men have different optimum T levels.

On a TRT/HCG combo protocol, it's pretty tricky, IMO. Swale's approach is to set the T only dosage first and then add a small amount of HCG 2 days a weeks. (I think he uses about 150 to 250 IU per dosage.) I gather that Swale believes that the increase in serum T from the HCG is insignificant.

Swale is adding 400 to 500 IU of HCG per week to a full TRT regimen. OTOH, Phil, you are adding 1,500 IU per week, IIRC.

 

[pmgamer18]

I konw it does not sound the same but my Dr. said he needs to get a value and adjust for there. I asked about the 250 IU dose and he said I may well end up on that. So I am not sure what my Dr. is looking for. He wants to see me in 2 weeks no blood test. But I think you can check something in a urine test. It took me some time to get here and I don't feel in the short run this will heart anything.
Phil

 

[1cc]

Swale is adding 400 to 500 IU of HCG per week to a full TRT regimen. OTOH, Phil, you are adding 1,500 IU per week, IIRC.

From what I have read in the posts he is adding 150-250 per day for the daily HCG protocol with TRT. That comes to 1050-1750iu of HCG per week.

 

[DavidZ]

From what I have read in the posts he is adding 150-250 per day for the daily HCG protocol with TRT. That comes to 1050-1750iu of HCG per week.

I was referring to Swale's recipe dosage. Swale has discussed numerous protocols here, usually relating to a specific guy.

Nonetheless, HCG dosage varies greatly by individual. Much more than TRT dosage.

For example, my dosage is 65 IU/day or 455 IU/week. That alone puts me in the upper normal T range. Some men need 3 or 4 times that much or more. Some men won't respond at all to 100 times that much. So, it's not very meaningful to say what an average dosage for HCG is.

 

[pmgamer18]

Well I don't know if my T levels will go up being primary and on TRT for over 16 yrs. But the calm feeling is worth it I feel dam good after taking a shot of Hcg. It is the best I have felt even better then Meditating. And it lasts a lot longer. If my testis get bigger this would be a bonus.
Phil

 

[1cc]

Based on the study in this link http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/5/2595 and considering IntraTesticular Testosterone, if one wanted to do daily HCG, then the ideal dosage would be approx. 200iu per day with a maximum of 250iu. Would this be a correct assumption?

Would there be any reason to use less than 200iu as is mentioned in this post:
https://thinksteroids.com/community/posts/378426

Would there be any reason to use more than 250iu?

I miscalculated. I think based on the study 150iu per day would be the dosage that should get most guys to baseline ITT.

 

[SWALE]

DavidZ--Excellent point! Dosing must be individulized.

 

[inquisitive1]

Where are/is the reliable places to obtain HCG with all the necessary tools?...

 

[seeking]

Where are/is the reliable places to obtain HCG with all the necessary tools?...

go to an endocrinologist

hcg only protocol's suck though, never heard of anyone, myself included, that felt any good on them

 

[Soochers88]

Really? I was hoping that they did work? Some of the guys that posted earlier in this forum indicated that they had benefits from it...if you do an internet search you will find a lot of testimonials.

Anyway I am a 23 yr old male with all of the symptoms of low T, I suspect that I have secondary hypogonadsim brought on by excessive levels of cortisol (due to excessive sexual activity). Do you guys think HCG will benefit me? My Total T level hovers around 400 (range is 300-1200) and my free T hovers around 12 (range is 9-26). I have had my cortisol tested and it is above the normal range by a few points.

I believe that my pituitary has been suppressed by excessive sexual activity, and HCG seems like the logical step to get my pituitary back to functioning normally. What do you guys think?