Help me please -- Finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high E

[madclown]

Hi guys, I've been lurking for awhile but the time has come for me to post... I really need your help, PLEASE. I don't know what to do anymore and my health and quality of life has been ruined thanks to Finasteride.

I am 27 years old, 5'10, 150lbs. I took Finasteride (Proscar) quartered 1.25mg/day for 11 months when I was 25-26 for hairloss. It has now been 14 months since I quit (cold turkey) and I have still not recovered from the side effects I experienced. This was after I was told by my doctor and MERCK's literature that any side effects would resolve upon discontinuation of the drug.

Prior to Finasteride I was a perfectly healthy 25 yr old guy, I loved to have sex, could get hard at the drop of a hat, was always horny and mentally sharp. Now a year and a half later I'm a shell of my former self, and am STILL experiencing side effects that manifested while on the drug, including:


Sexual:
---------
- Low libido, no primal desire for sex, never horny
- No spontaneous, morning or nocturnal erections
- Numb feeling/lack of sensitivity in penis/balls, rubbery penis
- Penis/nuts extremely wrinkled when flaccid, constantly retreating
- Penile/scrotum shrinkage
- Porn/girls don't turn me on anymore (nothing happens down there)
- Some penis curvature and rotation on axis to left
- Semen volume/shooting distance decrease
- Semen consistency change from thick creamy white before fin, to clear and watery while on fin.... after fin, semen is somewhat thick and sheet yellow/white in color.
- Loss of erections soon after penetration, unable to sustain


Mental:
--------
- Brain fog, difficulty remembering things, forgetfulness
- Stumbling over words, tongue tied, slurring of speech
- Emotional blunting / no feelings
- Lack of energy, interest in hobbies, no passion to do anything anymore


Physical:
--------
Pseudo-gyno


When I quit on October 1, 2005, my dick was shrivelled, totally numb and tingly, and completely lifeless... I couldn't feel anything down there anymore. I couldnt get turned on, my jizz was like water and I felt like I was constantly out of it mentally, and always tired. Also by this point I was experiencing full-blown panic attacks, anxiety, weight gain and the beginnings of puffy nips/gyno (I had major chest pains in month 6 -- should have recognized the signs).

2 weeks after I quit I felt a massive flood of DHT come back into my system. I felt horny and alive again!!! I could get turned on no problem, erections were 100%, jizz volume great, penis/balls were full size.

3 months later by January 2006, the flood of DHT had disappeared and I felt like complete crap... my system had crashed. At this point I got my first labs drawn.


LABS (Canadian values):
-----------------------

1. January 2006 (3 months off):
- low T (12.8 nmo/L, range 8.4-28.7 = 388 in US)
- high TSH (4.54, range 0.30-5.50).

Family doctor refused to believe Finasteride could be causing these problems, said everything was in my head. I knew it wasn't and by this point I had found the Yahoo Finasteride Side Effects forum. I came to realize there were hundreds of other men who had their HPTA screwed by finasteride, and have yet to recover.

2. May 2006 (8 months off) - 2nd blood test:
- T went up to 17.3 (519)
- TSH went down to 2.33
- Estradiol 154 (43 US terms)
- LH 2.0 (2.0-18) ... BORDERLINE
- FSH 2.1 (2.0-18) ... BORDERLINE
- Also had a semen test - came back fertile.

I realized at this point I was experiencing symptoms of secondary hypogonadism. Again my doctor shrugged things off and told me to come back in 6 months.


TODAY:
--------

December 2006 (14 months off):

- Have since seen a world-reknowned Urologist who basically told me this was all in my head and claimed all my values were "normal", yet found it "interesting" that I had no morning, noctunals or spontaneous wood.
- Prescribed me Viagra (at 27!!!) and sent me on my way.

Even though its been 14 months since I quit, I am still experiencing all of the above side effects, and nothing has really improved. My main issue is still the lack of sex drive, penis/nuts shrinkage, reduced ejaculate and difficulty getting erections (due to lack of libido).

I am seeing another local Endo in March but may get new labs before then (they cost me $) to check Estradiol, Total T, TSH, LH, FSH, Prolactin, Progesterone, SHBG, DHT, AST, ALT, DHEA-s, Cortisol, Albumin, and Free Testosterone.

--------------

TREATMENT:

Well, here's where I need your guys' help and expert opinions...

Basically... HOW CAN I GET BACK TO NORMAL? I understand HCG and Clomid can be used to jumpstart the HPTA... but for how long after you've been shutdown? Does anyone even know how or why Fin screws up the HTPA in the first place (besides blocking DHT/T upregulation/extra aromatization to E?)

Based on my last labs, my best guess is to get my Estradiol under control (apparently its high?) to correct the T/E ratio, and see where Prolactin and SHBG are with my next labs. I understand the former can shutdown T production/the latter binds Free T, which is crucial for libido. Hopefully by correcting those hormones LH will be stimulated and T/FSH will rise again?

However, eventually I think I will make an appointment to see Dr John or Shippens in the US. I understand they have experience treating men shutdown my Fin... but if anyone knows a doctor or endo in Canada that has treated Finasteride patientsthen please let me know... I really don't want to have to resort to going on TRT for life (if I could even find a doc willing to work with me on it).


Thanks in advance for any and all insight, I feel like a shell of my former self but I know there must be a way to beat this.

You guys are the best.

 

[pmgamer18]

First thing on my list of things to do is get some Indolplex/DIM take one tablet at dinner time this link sends all over the world unless you can find it in your area. Make sure it's in tablet form so you can cut in to halfs if needed. Doing this should bring on your morning wood and get your Total and Free T levels back up. Also see it you can get your family Dr. to work with Dr. John at www.allthingsmale.com he has treated men for this and will work with your Dr. over the phone.
http://www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html

 

[Sunkist]

Find a good physcian who will work with you as Phil suggested. You were subjected to one of the most dangerous meds, right there with Premarin, ever pushed on the public by big pharma.

 

[wildfox]

Good luck! Ditto what Phil said. Go see Dr. Crisler if you can or get your doctor to consult with him!

 

[madclown]

Phil -- I am assuming you think 43 too high for Estradiol and that is why you are suggesting I3C/DIM? How long should I take it? Can a level of 43 impair T/LH/FSH production that much to make someone experience everything I described??

Sunkist -- I am attempting to find a doc to work with me on this, its damn hard tho when they all say everything is in range and all these symptoms are in my head. What have you heard or read that shows Finasteride is so dangerous (besides the experiences of people like me?)

Finally... why Dr. Crisler and not Dr. Shippens? Just curious.

THANKS GUYS!

---------------
MY HORMONES:

3 months off Finasteride:
Invalid Link Removed

8 months off Finasteride:
Invalid Link Removed


Semen analysis:
Invalid Link Removed

 

[ccrtx7]

Madclown,

I have experienced almost exactly the same things you have/are experienced, but my problems were induced by steriods. I am almost 27 now, and my problems began at the end of a prolonged cycle that ended in Feb/March of 2005. I was totally shut down at that time, HPTA badly damaged (I assume), as well.
Weeks later I saw a doctor in the city I was attending college at, and she told me to stop all the meds I was taking (nolva and clomid). She also had an attitude that I was a stupid jock, so I did not go back to see her.
In October of 2006 I saw "the world renound" guy in Houston and got blood tests taken. I went back a couple of weeks later, and LH and FSH were in the 3-4 range, Test was in the 300-400 range, and eveerything else was normal. There was alot of BORDERLINE, but nothing was glaring. This was VERY disheartening to me because I was still experiencing many of the things you mentioned above.
I graduated in Dec of 2005, and moved. In Feb of this year I went to see another Doctor in my new city, and he basically told me the same thing.......that I was fine and all was in my head. He did not order new bloodwork, and gave me a sample pack of VIAGRA, and sent me on my way. THANKS ALOT.
Recently I ordered some HCG thinking the same thing you thought. I thought it would "jumpstart" my HPTA to working properly again. HCG is actually very suppressive. Basically, if your balls are not working, you need it. If they are working and producing LH and FSH, you prob dont need it. I thought my balls had atrophied, and that is why I ordered it. I was taking 500iu 3 x week for about 3 weeks. I felt good at first, but no change in my balls and then I kind of semi crashed again. I WOULD NOT TAKE IT UNLESS YOU ARE TAKING NOLVADEX AT THE SAME TIME, AND MAYBE WOULD THINK TWICE ABOUT TAKING IT AT ALL. HCG has alot of benefits, but not really for your case.
Currently I am on 25mg of Nolva a day, and am feeling MUCH better. EVERYTHING concerning the balls, penis, hanging, tightness, erections, etc etc is better. I will do the Nolva for an extended period of time, and then a slow taper off. I will prob go get someblood work after.
Others on this board are VERY knowlegable concerning this stuff, but I would tell you to get some Nolvadex asap, and if you do do some HCG, 250 ius 2-3 x week, for about 3 weeks. It will shut you down worse if you do it for too long, or too much etc etc....

Good luck bro.

 

[madclown]

CCRTX -- Thanks for your respone.

You are now taking Nolva. Novla is an anti-E, right? So your shutdown must lie with having high Estrogens. Do you have bloodwork that shows this prior to taking Nolva?

Glad you have found a solution to your problem so far, I am also hoping that is is simply a matter of correcting my T/E ratio as well and then things would swing back to normal.

Sounds like it so far based on what Phil and yourself have stated (DIM/I3C, Novla -- all anti-Es)

 

[ccrtx7]

Nolva is more than an anti E. In females it is actually used to treat breast cancer. Some others that will post on this thread eventually will explain its benefits and how it works better than I can. Here is a very good link. READ THE WHOLE THING.

https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134241217

It is a sticky at the top of the Men's Health page if the link does not work.

My Estrogen was actually not that high. In fact it was normal. I will look at the bloodwork tonight, but I think my E was totally normal, and my T was borderline low/normal. Most of my problem was sexual, and more specifically was the tightness of my testicles, penis hanging way smaller, poor erections, low libido. My body/mind never was terribly off (though the sex shit messed with my head). Like I said my LH and FSH were low, and I think that my body stopped producing nearly the amount it did before aas. It forgot how too.

That was part of the problem, too. Many doctors do not know how too treat low FSH or low LH, esp low levels that were caused by outside meds, hormones, aas, etc etc.

Your problem might not be T/E ratio, though getting that in order is ideal. Your LH and FSH was very low for a 27 yr old healthy guy, so I know for a fact that Nolva will help with that.

 

[fishing trip]

Re: Help me please -- Finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

I did the same thing. Tried to jump start. Should not have used HCG casue my testes had been proucing low levels (off juice) of test for about a yr. Crashed afterwards. Nolva helped at first, then mornig wood disapeared all together on the same amount of nolva. I should have got blood work to check my E2 prior. Now, I will probably try nolva again with full blood pannels done prior and post.

What is Indolplex/DIM.......also, I here pregnelone works well at combating the above mentioned symptoms. I will be trying 10-25mgs ed soon.

 

[fishing trip]

Re: Help me please -- Finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

Also, I had done about 2.5 yrs of juicing prior to laying off all for a yr with only minimal PCT. I actually think I fucked up on my PCT looking back. HCG really isnt worth it unless your taking it while on cycle for nut size and LH.

I think Pregnelone and nolva perhaps work the best with IGF-1 (if you can afford it) or insulin, which is cheap and similar to IGF-1..............also Insulin reduces SHBG. I have heard SWALE refute it, and then a million other bros backed me up on the slin thing with posted studied. plus-I felt and looked better on the slin.

 

[pmgamer18]

Yes it's to high and it would be nice if we had your SHBG tests if low then your real high. Go read this thread this gut has no testis and is feeling like crap went on Indolplex/DIM and in 4 days woke up with some dam good wood and I think he is feeling much bettrer. It's a big part of the problem with most men.
https://thinksteroids.com/community/threads/134248312

Phil -- I am assuming you think 43 too high for Estradiol and that is why you are suggesting I3C/DIM? How long should I take it? Can a level of 43 impair T/LH/FSH production that much to make someone experience everything I described??

Sunkist -- I am attempting to find a doc to work with me on this, its damn hard tho when they all say everything is in range and all these symptoms are in my head. What have you heard or read that shows Finasteride is so dangerous (besides the experiences of people like me?)

Finally... why Dr. Crisler and not Dr. Shippens? Just curious.

THANKS GUYS!

---------------
MY HORMONES:

3 months off Finasteride:
Invalid Link Removed

8 months off Finasteride:
Invalid Link Removed


Semen analysis:
Invalid Link Removed

 

[pmgamer18]

Shippen will not treat you over the phone with your family Dr.

Phil -- I am assuming you think 43 too high for Estradiol and that is why you are suggesting I3C/DIM? How long should I take it? Can a level of 43 impair T/LH/FSH production that much to make someone experience everything I described??

Sunkist -- I am attempting to find a doc to work with me on this, its damn hard tho when they all say everything is in range and all these symptoms are in my head. What have you heard or read that shows Finasteride is so dangerous (besides the experiences of people like me?)

Finally... why Dr. Crisler and not Dr. Shippens? Just curious.

THANKS GUYS!

---------------
MY HORMONES:

3 months off Finasteride:
Invalid Link Removed

8 months off Finasteride:
Invalid Link Removed


Semen analysis:
Invalid Link Removed

 

[madclown]

Thanks Phil.

SHBG is on my list of tests to get the next round.

The past 2 tests the doc chose what he wanted to get tested.

This time I TOLD him what to write down, but he's making me pay for it instead of insurance.

I definitely want to know SHBG, Free T and DHT for sure.

Thanks again.

 

[jaydee]

Re: Help me please -- Finasteride-induced secondary hypogonadism, low T/LH/FSH, high

I am experiencing exactly the same symptoms as you madclown from using finasteride for 4 months. Ive been off for over 7 months now.

I am currently two weeks into clomid at 50mg a day and im now tapering down to 25mg a day for another two weeks. I havnt seen any improvement so far at all.

This is one scarey drug, and how it ever got past the FDA or remains on the shelf today escapes me completely. Ive nearly killed myself 30 times over because of this and its been nothing but sheer determination that ive gotten through it. I know what your going through madclown. Sorry for the rant but somthings got to be done about this drug - its absolute poison.

Back to the topic, how long should one take Nolva for in a situation like this? Weeks? Months? I am starting to think that TRT is my only hope and Im just praying that the curve in my penis straightens out again. BTW i am in my late 20's too and going through male menopause and peyronies disease thanks to finasteride.

 

[madclown]

Jaydee, sorry to hear you're in the same boat.

It really sucks, this is a very serious matter. I am getting very concerned about the long term health effects of having lowered T thanks to a stupid hair loss pill... I wish I had never touched that shit.

Can an expert tell us: What is the protocol for using Nolva to recover from finasteride or steroids?

And why Nolva and not say, Clomid?

Thanks in advance...

 

[Legenden1999]

Can an expert tell us: What is the protocol for using Nolva to recover from finasteride or steroids?

As far as I know, noone has recovered from finasteride with nolva/clomid/hcg.
Read my reply in your other thread of same name..

JH

 

[pmgamer18]

As far as I know, noone has recovered from finasteride with nolva/clomid/hcg.
Read my reply in your other thread of same name..

JH

We had a guy that though he recovered doing Clomid but he posted here some time ago that he relapsed.

 

[lou123]

. May 2006 (8 months off) - 2nd blood test:
- T went up to 17.3 (519)
- TSH went down to 2.33
- Estradiol 154 (43 US terms)
- LH 2.0 (2.0-18) ... BORDERLINE
- FSH 2.1 (2.0-18) ... BORDERLINE
- Also had a semen test - came back fertile.


What time did you have the test taken at ? Did you get a good nights sleep before the test ?

Do you have any tests from before finasteride ?

A natural 519 T level is not going to be treated by most DR's. Since it's been 7 months you should get another test done now.

Looking at your blood work 1/2 arimidex 2X's a week would raise your T and cut your E2

LH ans FSH tests are no acccurate as they "pulse" every so often, an accurate test is one in which they take several blood samples over a 2 hour period

 

[raw1973]

I've been taking finasteride for 6-7 yrs for hair loss. It stopped my receding hairline and I have a full head of hair still, when everyone else in the family has gone bald. I haven't noticed any serious sexual side effects( although a decrease in libido which I attributed to age,34yrs old now, but havn't had T or E tested as of yet) My question though, is could there be a connection between chronic thyroiditis ( hashimoto's) and low DHT. I was recently diagnosed with this, and wonder if there is a connection. I have low thyroid #'s with thyroid antibodies and they say that mostly women are diagnosed with this disorder. Anyone else notice a connection between low DHT and thyroid disease?

 

[lou123]

I've been taking finasteride for 6-7 yrs for hair loss. It stopped my receding hairline and I have a full head of hair still, when everyone else in the family has gone bald. I haven't noticed any serious sexual side effects( although a decrease in libido which I attributed to age,34yrs old now, but havn't had T or E tested as of yet) My question though, is could there be a connection between chronic thyroiditis ( hashimoto's) and low DHT. I was recently diagnosed with this, and wonder if there is a connection. I have low thyroid #'s with thyroid antibodies and they say that mostly women are diagnosed with this disorder. Anyone else notice a connection between low DHT and thyroid disease?

Try switching to 1/2 mg of Propecia a day. With me in has a dramatic effect on my libido with no change in hair loss. When Merck was getting the drug appoved they did studies saying .25 mg was effective. Also all the people in the studies were using a shampoo such as Nizoral