Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism (ASIH)
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Anabolic Steroids
Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism (ASIH) by Michael Scally, MD
- Thread starter Millard
- Start date
Superb article, read it in its entirety.
Thanks for that Mike.
I used clomid and nolvadex together many times but had no idea covering my bases was the correct approach.
I do have a couple of questions though.
I did read that until testicular function was restored using HCG it is pointless to try to fire the HPTA without the “T” portion of the protocol restored.
On average what amounts were administered on a daily basis and at what time length was the average duration of treatment to restore the "T" portion?
You did suggest the clomid twice a day and following the circadian cycle.
What time is best for nolvadex/clomid administration to follow the circadian cycle of the body?
Same question for HCG, I found at night was best but I would like to hear your thoughts?
Does the size of the balls returning to normal size have any indication upon where administration of HCG needs to be stopped?
If I feel great and balls are full size (without taking blood tests) would this be an acceptable time to stop administration of HCG and continue the administration of clomid and nolvadex?
You mentioned LH-RH, is this the same as HCG or are they close?
On average what was the length of time on clomid and nolvadex to restore the "HP" portion of the HPTA?
Sorry for the questions the article brought up questions that I have being on a PCT right now @ day 16
Thanks for that Mike.
I used clomid and nolvadex together many times but had no idea covering my bases was the correct approach.
I do have a couple of questions though.
I did read that until testicular function was restored using HCG it is pointless to try to fire the HPTA without the “T” portion of the protocol restored.
On average what amounts were administered on a daily basis and at what time length was the average duration of treatment to restore the "T" portion?
You did suggest the clomid twice a day and following the circadian cycle.
What time is best for nolvadex/clomid administration to follow the circadian cycle of the body?
Same question for HCG, I found at night was best but I would like to hear your thoughts?
Does the size of the balls returning to normal size have any indication upon where administration of HCG needs to be stopped?
If I feel great and balls are full size (without taking blood tests) would this be an acceptable time to stop administration of HCG and continue the administration of clomid and nolvadex?
You mentioned LH-RH, is this the same as HCG or are they close?
On average what was the length of time on clomid and nolvadex to restore the "HP" portion of the HPTA?
Sorry for the questions the article brought up questions that I have being on a PCT right now @ day 16
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manfreakca
New Member
my balls are big to begin with i think god new i was going to juice lol,anyway during a cycle they dont shrink much all i use is some tribulus and im all set
jago25_98
New Member
I have a question for the Doc.
My balls were about the size of plums before I started. Now the right one in particular feels less hard and the right is at least 1/3 smaller.
This is 3 weeks after stopping taking anything.
I was on 400mg EQ + 400mg Test a week. I was planning to run for 12 weeks but ran into problems and had to cut it short at 6. Balls seemed to shrink quickly at week 4 but I didn't see it coming. My PCT 20mg Tamooxifen Citrate / 2 days and 500ui Pregyl but I was only able to run the Pregyl for 4 days because I then found out it needed to be kept refridgerated :/ I had used antibac water though rather than the bundled sterile water.
While this was only a trial run anyway, and I don't feel too bad (I'd say probably 20% weaker than before the cycle), how long should I wait for the balls to grow?
Thanks for any advice. I did read the paper but I couldn't interprete it to my situation.
My balls were about the size of plums before I started. Now the right one in particular feels less hard and the right is at least 1/3 smaller.
This is 3 weeks after stopping taking anything.
I was on 400mg EQ + 400mg Test a week. I was planning to run for 12 weeks but ran into problems and had to cut it short at 6. Balls seemed to shrink quickly at week 4 but I didn't see it coming. My PCT 20mg Tamooxifen Citrate / 2 days and 500ui Pregyl but I was only able to run the Pregyl for 4 days because I then found out it needed to be kept refridgerated :/ I had used antibac water though rather than the bundled sterile water.
While this was only a trial run anyway, and I don't feel too bad (I'd say probably 20% weaker than before the cycle), how long should I wait for the balls to grow?
Thanks for any advice. I did read the paper but I couldn't interprete it to my situation.
A lot depends on what was the state of the HPTA before beginning AAS. If you were normal, and I mean by proven valued and not by what you think. Assuming you were normal before stating you are in good shape. First T does not inhibit the HPTA as severely as other AAS. I have patients on T for up to 12-16 months before coming off. And you are also lucky since equipoise is also light on the HPTA. There is an excellent chance that your T level when you stopped was ~2000ng/dL. It will take the body ~2 weeks, earliest, to bring the T level to a point that your body will initiate the HPTA. You do not have the meds needed it sounds. If you were normal et the beginning, hold tight you will return to normal within 2-3 months. Lab work is imperative to ensure HPTA stability.
Mike
Mike
Does testicular size have anything to do with recovery of hypogonadism?
How about a stupid question
, does tribulis have any effect on hypogonadism?
That circadian(sp) rythem, clomid being split is that morning and night?
50mg a day sufficient?
Length, 30 days?.....Longer?
Is any AI taken with HCG due to the heavy aromitization effects of HCG?
Id there desentization of the leydig cells due to taking HCG too long or too much?
Is HCG split up or taken all at once?
How about a stupid question
, does tribulis have any effect on hypogonadism?That circadian(sp) rythem, clomid being split is that morning and night?
50mg a day sufficient?
Length, 30 days?.....Longer?
Is any AI taken with HCG due to the heavy aromitization effects of HCG?
Id there desentization of the leydig cells due to taking HCG too long or too much?
Is HCG split up or taken all at once?
Bumbppppppp.........
what is the normal protocol with dose and length of time to use Clomid/Nolvadex?
Is Clomid 50mg twice a day for two weeks and Nolvadex at 20 mg a day for 30 days the norm or likely to work?
I inject 100 units a day of hcg and total test went from 430 to 800. Now 60 days later and still using hcg I want to pull off with the above protocol.
Likely to work?
what is the normal protocol with dose and length of time to use Clomid/Nolvadex?
Is Clomid 50mg twice a day for two weeks and Nolvadex at 20 mg a day for 30 days the norm or likely to work?
I inject 100 units a day of hcg and total test went from 430 to 800. Now 60 days later and still using hcg I want to pull off with the above protocol.
Likely to work?
I have a similar question to painman.
I'm looking to come off HRT. I haven't taken a testosterone shot for 2 weeks (i use enanthate), and am currently taking HCG everyday at a dose of 300iu, which i know is high but wasn't sure how much to take to initiate this "coming-off" program.
I was sketching in:
ZMA throughout whole time to assist with sleep,
week 1-2 of HCG ED
week 3-4 50mg clomid ED, 20mg nolva ED
week 5-6 tapering the clomid down till off, 20mg nolva ED
week 7-8 tapering nolva down till off.
I was then thinking of maybe using some natural producsts;
ZMA
Tongkat Ali (LongJack)
Tribulus
Indolplex with DIM
Chryosin.
Any comments anyone?
I'm looking to come off HRT. I haven't taken a testosterone shot for 2 weeks (i use enanthate), and am currently taking HCG everyday at a dose of 300iu, which i know is high but wasn't sure how much to take to initiate this "coming-off" program.
I was sketching in:
ZMA throughout whole time to assist with sleep,
week 1-2 of HCG ED
week 3-4 50mg clomid ED, 20mg nolva ED
week 5-6 tapering the clomid down till off, 20mg nolva ED
week 7-8 tapering nolva down till off.
I was then thinking of maybe using some natural producsts;
ZMA
Tongkat Ali (LongJack)
Tribulus
Indolplex with DIM
Chryosin.
Any comments anyone?
OK, here is what I did to come off TRT and had a fantastic recovery.
HCG @ 2500iu's EOD x 8 shots
Clomid 50mg twice a day (12 hrs apart 100mg total) for 30 days.
Nolvadex 20mg for 45 days.
Worked fantastic.
I found the HCG worked best taken in late afternoon (noticed better morning wood).
I did talk to Scally on the phone about my questions.
An AI is not taken during PCT.
I was told testicular size is a poor indicator of testicular function.
He suggested to me that around day 10 to get my test levels checked (during the above protocol) to see if the HCG could be stopped due to normal testicular function (testosterone production), if testosterone levels were within normal range then HCG could be stopped and the clomid and nolvadex continued.
ZMA is not necessary for recovery but you can use it and I did.
He said recovery takes around 45 days using the above protocol but could take anywhere from 6 to 18 months with no PCT for recovery.
Avoid aspirin when using HCG.
The above is what I did comming off TRT and absolutly felt awesome.
I know of two other guys that followed the same protocol as myself and had success as well.
HCG @ 2500iu's EOD x 8 shots
Clomid 50mg twice a day (12 hrs apart 100mg total) for 30 days.
Nolvadex 20mg for 45 days.
Worked fantastic.
I found the HCG worked best taken in late afternoon (noticed better morning wood).
I did talk to Scally on the phone about my questions.
An AI is not taken during PCT.
I was told testicular size is a poor indicator of testicular function.
He suggested to me that around day 10 to get my test levels checked (during the above protocol) to see if the HCG could be stopped due to normal testicular function (testosterone production), if testosterone levels were within normal range then HCG could be stopped and the clomid and nolvadex continued.
ZMA is not necessary for recovery but you can use it and I did.
He said recovery takes around 45 days using the above protocol but could take anywhere from 6 to 18 months with no PCT for recovery.
Avoid aspirin when using HCG.
The above is what I did comming off TRT and absolutly felt awesome.
I know of two other guys that followed the same protocol as myself and had success as well.
lou123 said:
Well, this is going to sound bad but I had some extra gear laying around so I decided to do one more cycle.
I didnt get any blood work done.
I made the decision to do another cycle because the recovery went so well and I had anough PCT stuff for another recovery so I decided to go on for 8 weeks on test.
I waited about a month after the last tamox tab before i went on. I felt good, libido was a bit down some but I think I was trying to settle with my levels.
I know this sounds a bit irresponsible but I had a bunch of stuff and didnt want to toss it or sell it so I did it for summer.
But to be honest I am not fretting at all PCT, I have that covered and recovery went better than expected.
I didnt get any blood work done, so I cant say for sure but I think after I am all done I will.
Sorry, that didnt answer your question.
SWALE-Follower
New Member
Is the HCG done subcutaneously or intramuscularly in the treatment??
SWALE-Follower
New Member
Even higher than 2500iu?? Is that what Dr. Scally's protocol calls for?? Does this same dose hold true for someone who's been doing 300iu every three days as dictated by Dr. Crisler's HRT protocol. I'm looking into recovering my HPTA for good. I've been doing AndroGel/HCG/Arimidex like outlined by SWALE.eeso said:
Well, i came off TRT and I had patheticly small nuts.
I started out doing 750iu's a day and after about 15 days I started to get worried as my nuts were not really getting any mass back.
Either my HCG (pregnyl from Mexico) was bad or I was not responding.
I followed Scally's advice (thanks doc), and then used 2500 EOD and the nuts started to really see a diffrence.
So yah, 2500iu's was the ticket for me but i feel I had total shutdown.
Maybe others might not need as much HCG.
But if you dont get the nuts online then PCT will be hindered and lengthened.
I started out doing 750iu's a day and after about 15 days I started to get worried as my nuts were not really getting any mass back.
Either my HCG (pregnyl from Mexico) was bad or I was not responding.
I followed Scally's advice (thanks doc), and then used 2500 EOD and the nuts started to really see a diffrence.
So yah, 2500iu's was the ticket for me but i feel I had total shutdown.
Maybe others might not need as much HCG.
But if you dont get the nuts online then PCT will be hindered and lengthened.
Hackskii -- quite insightful. Thank you. For purposes of clarification -- are all the meds (i.e., hcg, clomid, and nolva) started together and taken concomitantly for the first fifteen days or are the clomid and nolva commenced only upon cessation of hcg injections? And one other question
-- did Dr. Scally at some point ask you to consider taking HGH in order to further increase your odds of a successful recovery?
-- did Dr. Scally at some point ask you to consider taking HGH in order to further increase your odds of a successful recovery?
Ozzie said:
YES, all are started together.
Yes clomid and nolva continue after the fifteenth day
Yes to the HGH too although he could not show studies he noticed PCT was more effective using HGH along in the mix.
I can tell you that following Scally's suggestions worked better than I ever expected.
Very impressed with recovery.
45 days and full recovery of the HPTA.
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