How much protein?

When you're cutting the body is in a calorie or energy deficit but it still needs a certain amour of energy to fuel biological processes as well as your activity. Where is this energy going to come from? It can get it from stored fat and stored amino acids in the muscle. Obviously you want to minimize the loss of muscle mass so you compensate by slightly increasing protein intake to recover what was lost.

Downsides to too much protein are you have less room for carbs in your diet which can impact performance negatively and IF you have kidney problems it can make them worse.
I guess a question I have is, how do fat and carbohydrates factor into hypertrophy? I know it's probably pretty complicated, but if there's a cliff notes version you wouldnt mind sharing, it would be much appreciated.

I just want to know how to gain the most muscle possible in the shortest amount of time with the lowest possible accumulation of body fat possible. Is gaining the maximum amount of muscle possible without adding any significant bf? I understand macro ratios needed to accomplish this might differ from person to person based on individual metabolic rate and other factors.
 
I guess a question I have is, how do fat and carbohydrates factor into hypertrophy? I know it's probably pretty complicated, but if there's a cliff notes version you wouldnt mind sharing, it would be much appreciated.

I just want to know how to gain the most muscle possible in the shortest amount of time with the lowest possible accumulation of body fat possible. Is gaining the maximum amount of muscle possible without adding any significant bf? I understand macro ratios needed to accomplish this might differ from person to person based on individual metabolic rate and other factors.

This could take 1000s of pages to cover lol.

The shortest answer I can give you is that both add to your calorie intake which is necessary for weight/fat/muscle gain. Protein, amino acids really, is the only one stored in your muscle tissue so everyone knows you need protein to build muscle. Carbs and fats cannot be stored as muscle tissue but they are still needed and/or can help. protein and fat's are essential nutrients whereas carbs are not but this doesn't mean you should purposely drop carbs altogether.

Fat/cholesterol helps make your hormones, helps add palatability to food, is very energy dense, adds calories etc. carbs on the other hand are the most preferred source of energy for everything in the body except for the heart. Carbs enter the body, get made into glucose and easily turned into ATP. Other sources of energy such as amino acids, ketones, fatty acids, glycerol, pyruvate, lactate, etc all can create ATP but need to go through many more processes in the citric acid cycle to do so (all of them can also turn into glucose EXCEPT fatty acids bc they can only form a double carbon acetyl-CoA due to the fact that two carbon atoms are lost to CO2 from fatty acids when they've undergone beta oxidation). Bottom line is there's many ways to make ATP and energy but carbohydrates are the most optimal way unless you suffer from diabetes or have bad insulin sensitivity or other health issues.

Carbs cannot be stored as muscle and theoretically can be stored as fat but only in a few extreme circumstances. They provide energy, they help add calories to your diet so you won't need to catabolize muscle for energy as much, they release insulin which is an anabolic and nutrient partitioning hormone, etc etc.

To get the maximum amount of muscle you need to maximize your calorie surplus but beyond a certain point you simply won't gain any extra muscle, the excess mass will be fat. To get the least amount of fat while building muscle, you need the smallest calorie surplus but then you're sacrificing the amount of muscle mass you gain. Those two goals are diametrically opposed. What you have to do is find balance for yourself as to what level of muscle and fat gain is acceptable for you.

Everyone builds muscle and stores fat at different rates depending upon genetics and hormones. Things like thyroid hormones, androgen levels, p-ratio, peptide yy, etc all affect this but you can't affect most of them significantly enough. What you can do is adjust your diet and training for your goals.

For bulking, my general advice is to figure out your TDEE via an online calculator. Add 10-20% cals or even more depending how fast you want to get big and how much fat you're willing to accept. Get 1g/lb of protein as a minimum. If you're only a few grams under no worries. If you go over no big deal so long as you still have plenty of room for carbs and fats. Next set your fat intake at 0.3-0.4g/lb. these are your minimum needs right here. Figure out how many cals these are and subtract them from your total cals. The rest of your cals fill in with carbs.

From this point you run the diet as is for 2-3weeks. Take notes whatever you need and then begin adjustments after that. Getting too fat too quickly? Back off the total calories slightly, wait 2wks and adjust again as needed. Not gaining muscle fast enough? Add more cals. You can also play around with the carb and fat amounts to see what suits you best.
 
This could take 1000s of pages to cover lol.

The shortest answer I can give you is that both add to your calorie intake which is necessary for weight/fat/muscle gain. Protein, amino acids really, is the only one stored in your muscle tissue so everyone knows you need protein to build muscle. Carbs and fats cannot be stored as muscle tissue but they are still needed and/or can help. protein and fat's are essential nutrients whereas carbs are not but this doesn't mean you should purposely drop carbs altogether.

Fat/cholesterol helps make your hormones, helps add palatability to food, is very energy dense, adds calories etc. carbs on the other hand are the most preferred source of energy for everything in the body except for the heart. Carbs enter the body, get made into glucose and easily turned into ATP. Other sources of energy such as amino acids, ketones, fatty acids, glycerol, pyruvate, lactate, etc all can create ATP but need to go through many more processes in the citric acid cycle to do so (all of them can also turn into glucose EXCEPT fatty acids bc they can only form a double carbon acetyl-CoA due to the fact that two carbon atoms are lost to CO2 from fatty acids when they've undergone beta oxidation). Bottom line is there's many ways to make ATP and energy but carbohydrates are the most optimal way unless you suffer from diabetes or have bad insulin sensitivity or other health issues.

Carbs cannot be stored as muscle and theoretically can be stored as fat but only in a few extreme circumstances. They provide energy, they help add calories to your diet so you won't need to catabolize muscle for energy as much, they release insulin which is an anabolic and nutrient partitioning hormone, etc etc.

To get the maximum amount of muscle you need to maximize your calorie surplus but beyond a certain point you simply won't gain any extra muscle, the excess mass will be fat. To get the least amount of fat while building muscle, you need the smallest calorie surplus but then you're sacrificing the amount of muscle mass you gain. Those two goals are diametrically opposed. What you have to do is find balance for yourself as to what level of muscle and fat gain is acceptable for you.

Everyone builds muscle and stores fat at different rates depending upon genetics and hormones. Things like thyroid hormones, androgen levels, p-ratio, peptide yy, etc all affect this but you can't affect most of them significantly enough. What you can do is adjust your diet and training for your goals.

For bulking, my general advice is to figure out your TDEE via an online calculator. Add 10-20% cals or even more depending how fast you want to get big and how much fat you're willing to accept. Get 1g/lb of protein as a minimum. If you're only a few grams under no worries. If you go over no big deal so long as you still have plenty of room for carbs and fats. Next set your fat intake at 0.3-0.4g/lb. these are your minimum needs right here. Figure out how many cals these are and subtract them from your total cals. The rest of your cals fill in with carbs.

From this point you run the diet as is for 2-3weeks. Take notes whatever you need and then begin adjustments after that. Getting too fat too quickly? Back off the total calories slightly, wait 2wks and adjust again as needed. Not gaining muscle fast enough? Add more cals. You can also play around with the carb and fat amounts to see what suits you best.
That was an epic, amazing, fantastic answer. Thank you!!
 
The problem is my TDEE is supposedly like 3200. I weigh 182. I have been eating between 4500-5000 calories consistently, with between 350-400g protein, 150-175g fat and 450-500g carbs. Most of this is whole food, only 75g protein and 1800cals overall come from shakes. I eat every 2 hours. This doesn't count any juice I drink (I have a weakness for cran-raspberry) so a lot of days I exceed 5500cals. I am getting leaner, but I am staying the same weight for the most part.

This has been the case for the past two months while cruising on 300mg test. I just started a new cycle this week -
16 weeks 600 test, 300 deca, 300 tren E, and 50mg dbol ED for 1-6. I am perplexed at the situation and hope you could provide some insight. I also don't do any cardio, except for a few minutes on the elliptical to warm up on leg day. Any ideas?
 
The problem is my TDEE is supposedly like 3200. I weigh 182. I have been eating between 4500-5000 calories consistently, with between 350-400g protein, 150-175g fat and 450-500g carbs. Most of this is whole food, only 75g protein and 1800cals overall come from shakes. I eat every 2 hours. This doesn't count any juice I drink (I have a weakness for cran-raspberry) so a lot of days I exceed 5500cals. I am getting leaner, but I am staying the same weight for the most part.

This has been the case for the past two months while cruising on 300mg test. I just started a new cycle this week -
16 weeks 600 test, 300 deca, 300 tren E, and 50mg dbol ED for 1-6. I am perplexed at the situation and hope you could provide some insight. I also don't do any cardio, except for a few minutes on the elliptical to warm up on leg day. Any ideas?

How much is your food bill every week? Must be expensive getting that much protein from whole food.
 
I base my protein intake on what steroids I'm using. When running insulin, T3 etc on a bulk I will hit 1.7g per lb, this coincides with insulin with every meal, but I only run Insulin in 4 week cycles.

Normally day to day, as in standard cycle I tend to think 1g per lb is more than enough, you could easily go lower but I like chicken.
 
The problem is my TDEE is supposedly like 3200. I weigh 182. I have been eating between 4500-5000 calories consistently, with between 350-400g protein, 150-175g fat and 450-500g carbs. Most of this is whole food, only 75g protein and 1800cals overall come from shakes. I eat every 2 hours. This doesn't count any juice I drink (I have a weakness for cran-raspberry) so a lot of days I exceed 5500cals. I am getting leaner, but I am staying the same weight for the most part.

This has been the case for the past two months while cruising on 300mg test. I just started a new cycle this week -
16 weeks 600 test, 300 deca, 300 tren E, and 50mg dbol ED for 1-6. I am perplexed at the situation and hope you could provide some insight. I also don't do any cardio, except for a few minutes on the elliptical to warm up on leg day. Any ideas?

How old are you? How tall are you? How do you keep track of your macros and calories
 
How old are you? How tall are you? How do you keep track of your macros and calories
I'm 6', 32 years old, been on Dr. prescribed TRT for a little over 2 years.

I use the UnderAmor MyFitnessPal app to keep track of my calories.

I just had bloodwork done, all within normal levels except for my liver values (75, 99) and hematocrit (0.9 over normal range)
 
How active are you and what do you use to measure portion sizes?

Try dropping protein to around 200g and upping your carbs.
Fairly active - lift heavy 5 times a week (80-90% of Max for mainlifts, 60% for secondary work) I work a desk job but I'm not chained to my chair.

I will drop protein to 200 (that's my goal wight anyway) for the next few weeks and see if it helps. Thanks doc!
 
I can't find the youtube clip right now - it was an interview with Phil Heath talking about proteins intake. It was hilarous, he was trying to keep proteins over TWO POUNDS PER DAY. I'm just picturing myself trying to neck 2 pounds of proteins. :eek:

Anyways, there is (or maybe was) a rule of thumb of 250-300 grams per day, and to try and keep every meal around 30 grams at least....it was something about the body not being able to absorb more than 30 grams of proteins in one setting, converting the protein to surplus energy instead.
 
Nearly every response youll get is merely bro science
The only study ive ever seen with validity was at .8g protein per KG of BW and that was shown to rebuild muscle in burn victims and any more got excreted thru the urine

See Protein requirements and muscle mass-strength changes during intensive training, page 774:
requirement + 2 standard deviations: 1.7g/kg/d
The authors note this is already 40% higher than elite bodybuilders at the time.

I've read 2.0g/kg/d used in HGH-supplementation studies.

More than 2.0g/kg/d is ludicrous.
 

Attachments

Ive been on both sides of this thing. I used to be a more is better guy. Did as close as to 500g protein a day then. I got schooled by Doc some time back and decided is give it a try.
No discernible difference noted by cutting my protein in half is what i discovered
other than more cash in your wallet perhaps?
 
Fairly active - lift heavy 5 times a week (80-90% of Max for mainlifts, 60% for secondary work) I work a desk job but I'm not chained to my chair.

I will drop protein to 200 (that's my goal wight anyway) for the next few weeks and see if it helps. Thanks doc!

You seem to be like me. A TDEE calculator tells me I need roughly 3200 cals to bulk but I maintain my weight steadily on 4200ish calories. Easing up on protein while increasin your carbs might help your performance some but it should make eating all that food easier too
 
I totally agree with 1.5 gr or max 2 gr of protein per kg of bodyweight is enough (especially for athletes who are trying to gain weight) the rest probably just goes into our urine like some here mentioned already. And like it was mentioned in the video above it will be hard to actually bulk if you eat way too much protein cause you will always feel satiated.
 
Nearly every response youll get is merely bro science
The only study ive ever seen with validity was at .8g protein per KG of BW and that was shown to rebuild muscle in burn victims and any more got excreted thru the urine
Absolutely. Protein intake has always been abused by BBers. There's no way someone is processing 400 gms. of protein. Good post gr8.
 
Back
Top