You didn't get this information,
from his site? Come on now, be honest?
That, my friend, makes this His Thread, then..
even though, it looks like My Thread
NO I DID NOT!!!
the same info can be found on many places, other then having him on my twitter I have nothing to do with him, I don't even go to his f-ing site!
I will now when i have time to see why you keep pushign him.
but this info was from my head.
I did a quick google search on "how to make bac water" and 90% of them are just about the same... guess they must have stolen it from the GURU basskiller huh?
I made this.
this is the most simple WU i have made.
here is another, must be form him too?:
A HOW TO for: SERMs, Aromatize inhibitors, Gyno and PCT *A must read
SERMs and Aromatize inhibitors
Well today I would like to talk about something EVERYONE should know about before ever considering any sort of steroid use .
Now I feel steroids can be used fairly safely but there are some basics you need to know or you may end up with lifelong issues or a costly one.
Now that was not meant to seem as bad as it may sound, I am talking about Gynaecomastia mainly and why it is so important to understand. I also want to talk about the compounds that can help you avoid it, help it and possibly cure it.
Sadly once gyno has developed extensively and has been there for some time, there might not be any other option but to get your breast glands cut out if you wished to get rid of the gyno. There has been some help with high dosed AI use like Letro, but that is very unhealthy to the body as some estrogen is needed for functions.
Sounds like a bad idea not to know what an AI or SERM is now huh?
Thats why I want to talk about Selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) and Aromatase inhibitors (AIs) today.
They are VERY easy tools to use that everyone should have on hand to keep any Gyno issues at bay. They also aid you in Post Cycle Therapy (PCT) possibly leading to a faster, fuller recovery after a steroid cycle .
If you are new to this all then here is a small definition of what Gyno is:
Gyno is the abnormal development of large mammary glands in men, resulting in breast enlargement.
Yah thats right you might just grow a pair of tits if you dont know what you're doing!
It really bothers me when I see so many posts like; how do I take away my gyno or is this gyno? or even I have gyno and I am taking an AI with my Tren and Test, so why is there gyno? (The last one was due to not knowing there is more than one type of gyno that is handled differently then with just estrogen related gyno)
These are things that should have been well researched before even considering the use of any sort of steroid.
There is more than one type of gyno, so make note of it!
Most of the Gyno issues you hear about are related to estrogen and seems to be the most common, thats where some might get into trouble when using other compounds that dont Aromatase but are progesterone/progestin based like Deca or Trenbolone .
Progestin seems to have a role in gyno development also and would warrant the use of not just an AI but also something to lower your progestin/prolactin levels like a prolactin antagonizer called Pramipexole while using compounds where things other than estrogen might be involved.
Prog-Gyno can even lead to leaky nipples! Yes like milk type thing!
I know trust me***8230; I was once young and new to all this myself.
Now I never had full blown gyno but I did get the wet nipples on a deca cycle early on in my Studies!
I found using an AI helped keep this away without a prolactin antagonizer, but that wont work for everyone, so gain HAVE IT ON HAND JUST IN CASE!
There seems to be a lower chance prog-Gyno issues when keeping estrogen levels low during cycles of say for e.g.; Deca and teste or tren and test, but I would not solely rely on an AI and would ALWAYS recommend having a prolactin antagonize like Prami (Pramipexole) on hand when using compounds like NPP, Deca or Trenbolone even if you do not plan to use it.
So what AI, SERM or Prolactin antagonizer should I take?
Well there are a few out there, along with some debate on which is better or what combo is better, but the basics are basics and any pick will do.
So what is a SERM?
SERM stands for "Selective estrogen receptor modulators".
SERMs are a class of compounds that have an effect on the estrogen receptor. SERMs effects on tissue vary, giving it the possibility to selectively inhibit or stimulate estrogen-like actions in various tissues. It also stimulates an increase of follicle-stimulating hormone and luteinizing hormone from the pituitary gland.[1]
What we care about its blocking of estrogen at the breast glands and the follicle-stimulating hormone and luteinizing hormone from the pituitary gland which is why we use it in Post Cycle Therapy (PCT).
At the end of a steroid cycle your own bodys natural hormonal production will most likely (if not every time) be suppressed/shut down and although stopping all steroids and waiting would eventually lead to recovery (if that was what was going to happen in your case). But the thing is it may take much longer to recover and that means a much greater chance of lost gains and emotional mood swings amongst other things.
That is why a SERM is highly recommended, SO much so that some even think if you DONT do a PCT that you wont recover!
Now although that is not true, it is true you SHOULD ALWAYS have a good PCT ready and on hand EVERY time you start a steroid cycle.
Doing so would aid the body in stimulation of the endocrine system and get things going in the direction you want quickly! (recovery).
What is an AI?
An AI stands for Aromatase inhibitor. (AI's) are a class of drugs originally developed for and used in the treatment of breast cancer and ovarian cancer. AIs also have the off-label use to treat or prevent Gynaecomastia in men. Aromatase is the enzyme which synthesizes estrogen in your body, sometimes even right from testosterone . AIs are usually taken to block the production of estrogen.
An AI should be on hand EVERY time a steroid cycle is started EVEN if you dont think you will need it and dont plan to use it, HAVE IT ON HAND!
Another good thing about keeping estrogen in check is Blood pressure, you might have some bloating and higher blood pressure if your estrogen levels are too high or unstable (fluctuations usually from miss-use of an AI and steroid or it would just be high all around in most cases).
That means using an AI will not only keep Gyno away but it may also lower your BP and help keep bloat/edema away!
Awesome stuff I think!
Cant I just use a SERM like Clomid for gyno and PCT?
NO! Well I mean you could, but it is not optimal and I strongly recommend against it.
This is why:
SERMS like Clomid, Tamox and others, only BLOCKS estrogen at some receptors like the breast glands. But it WILL NOT lower estrogen in your body!
If you have Gyno setting in and started up Clomid or Nolva sure you would block the gyno but your estrogen levels would still be building up and in my opinion that is NOT a good thing.
If you were not very smart, didnt think ahead and didnt have an AI on hand and only SERMs, then yes you could start a low dose while you wait for the AI to come, BUT USE THE AI for gyno control long term!
I ALWAYS tell people to use an AI for gyno/estrogen control; its just the most effective and healthy way to go about it.
Save the SERM for PCT use and IF NEEDED the onset of gyno while waiting for the AI to take full effect (if that ended up being the case).
Other than that I feel a SERM should not be used for gyno control and only as part of a PCT.
Some of the older guys may have used a SERMs for gyno control, but we know better now and its time to move with the times.
I am going to list the most used and well known of these compounds with a small description on each, then I will move into how you may want to implement its use and some standard ways of doing so that are generally accepted.
SERMs:
Clomiphene Citrate-
Increases production of gonadotropins by inhibiting negative feedback on the hypothalamus. It is also used in female infertility. Clomiphene has estrogenic and anti-estrogenic effects in the body. It also appears to stimulate the release of gonadotropins, follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), and leuteinizing hormone (LH).[2] Dosing of 30-100mg daily seems the norm for PCT use.
Tamoxifen Citrate (Nolvadex )-
Tamoxifen is usually used as an endocrine (anti-estrogen) therapy for hormone receptor-positive breast cancer in women. It is an antagonist of the estrogen receptor in the breast, while in other tissues it acts as an agonist sort of like how Clomid does.[3] Half-life is about 6 days, so ed to eod dosing is best for PCT use. 20-50mg daily seems the norm for this.
Toremifene Citrate (Torem/Fareston)-
Torem Is SERM similar to Tamoxifen (Nolva). Torem is also used to treat breast cancer and also does this by exerting estrogen antagonistic effects in certain tissues like breast tissue (anti-estrogen). It can act as an antagonist in the hypothalamus and pituitary, which could also increase testosterone production (why I recommend it as a PCT). Torem also seems to have a better ability to increase testosterone levels over Tamox because its andro to estro ratio is much greater than Tamox/Nolva. Half life is about 5 days. Dosing daily to eod is recommended for PCT use. Dosing of Torem for PCT at 20-100mg ed seems to be the norm.
Raloxifene (Ralox)-
Raloxifene is a second generation Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM). Raloxifene is similar in its action to that of tamoxifene but with much less of an increase in testosterone levels when compared to Tamox or Torem. The half-life is only about 27hrs so daily dosing is optimal for use in PCT. Dosing of 30-100mg ed seems to be the norm for PCT use.
Prolactin Antagonizer (PA):
Prami (Pramipexole)-
Prami has actions similar to Cabergoline (another type of PA) but with a significantly more positive impact on libido and mood. Pramipexole acts as a dopamine agonist and one of dopamine's main function as a hormone is to inhibit the release of prolactin. Pramipexole plays an important role in the inhibition of prolactin secretion which is important to some using some types of steroids where prolactin build up may be an issue. Prami is also used for treating early-stage Parkinson's disease (PD) and restless legs syndrome (RLS).[4] Pramipexole has a half-life between 8-10 hours. Normal dosing is 0.25-0.5mg ED (pre-bedtime dosing is recommended as it make some feel a bit sleepy)
AI's:
Letrozole (Letro)-
Letro lowers estrogen production in the body by blocking the aromatase enzyme, the enzyme responsible for estrogen synthesization. Letro has a very high rate of estrogen suppression in the area of 90%+, so care should be given to dosing as over suppression could lead to side effects associated with low estrogen levels, like achy joints, low energy levels etc. This can be an issue with all AIs but Letro is very good at its job and that leads to helping prevent bloating and gyno which may be associated with the use of AAS.[6] Letro has a fairly long active life so dosing of every other day, to even 1-2 times a week is optimal at doses of 0.25mg - 1.3mg.
Anastrozole (aka LiquiDex/Dex)-
Dex lowers estrogen production in the body by blocking the aromatase enzyme, the enzyme responsible for estrogen synthesization. Dosing of 0.5 mg to 1 mg a day should reduce serum estradiol about 50% in men,[5] which leads to helping prevent bloating and gyno which may be associated with the use of AAS. Active life is fairly short so daily to eod dosing is optimal.
Exemestane (Stane/Aromasin )-
Exemestane lowers estrogen production in the body by blocking the aromatase enzyme, the enzyme responsible for estrogen synthesization. Exemestane has about an 85% rate of estrogen suppression and does this by selectively inhibiting aromatase activity in a time-dependent and irreversible way. That helps prevent bloating and gyno which may be associated with the use of steroids. Stane has a fairly short active life so daily to every other day dosing is optimal.
As you can see there is quite the selection of compounds and this I not all of them.
I think these are the most often used, safe and effective for our topic today.
How would I use this in a steroid cycle?
Do I take it as soon as I stop them?
Do I wait a few weeks?
Well I will give you a few examples of how you would properly incorporate these compounds into your cycle, but something you need to understand is the compounds you are using.
Steroids have differing release and clearance times!
Some might leave your system in hours, like with more orals if you were to stop them today you could start PCT tomorrow (I do not recommend oral only cycles BTW, this is just an example).
But if you were taking for example teste or testcyp, well if you stopped today you would wait 1-2 weeks before starting your PCT because their release times and active life are much longer then the orals.
But some injectables are also very short in active life like NPP or trenAce, with then you would wait 2-4 days and start pct. It is very important to understand EVERY compound you put in your body to be able to use them safely and effectively.
I will list
a few examples of AAS cycles with an AI and PCT/SERM implemented:
1#
Wk1-12 500mg teste ew
Wk1-14 0.6mg e3d (2X a week) Letro
Wk13-17 PCT Clomid 50mg ed
2#
Wk1-14 500mg TestE ew
Wk1-12 300mg Deca ew
Wk4-15 0.25mg Prami ed (pre-bedtime)
Wk1-16 12.5mg ed Stane
Wk15-19 50mg Clomid and/or 20mg Nolvadex or 40mg Torem ed
3#
Wk1-10 50mg TrenAce eod
Wk1-12 100mg TestProp eod
Wk1-10 0.25mg Prami ed (pre bed)
Wk1-13 12.5mg Stane ed
Wk12-16 50mg Clomid ed
4#
Wk1-14 400mg TestE ew
Wk1-14 400mg MastE ew
Wk1-16 12.5mg Stane ed
Wk15-19 30-50mg Clomid ed or 20-30mg Nolvadex ed
You can see there are varying ways of doing things, and some may debate on what is best (in my op what I put is best lol) but the basics are there and should be followed regardless of your opinion.
I hope this helps someone out with their Gyno, AI or PCT questions!
ENJOY!
References
1) Riggs BL, Hartmann LC (2003). "Selective estrogen-receptor modulators -- mechanisms of action and application to clinical practice". N Engl J Med 618***8211;29. Selective estrogen-receptor modulators -- mecha... [N Engl J Med. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI
2) Endocr J. 2010;57(6):517-21. Epub 2010 Apr 6. Clomiphene citrate elicits estrogen agonistic/antagonistic effects differentially via estrogen receptors alpha and beta. Kurosawa T, Hiroi H, Momoeda M, Inoue S, Taketani Y. Clomiphene citrate elicits estrogen agonistic/antag... [Endocr J. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI
3) Br J Pharmacol. 2006 January; 147(S1): S269***8211;S276.Published online 2006 January 9 Tamoxifen (ICI46,474) as a targeted therapy to treat and prevent breast cancer Tamoxifen (ICI46,474) as a targeted therapy to treat and prevent breast cancer
4) Pramipexole (Sifrol and Sifrol ER) for Parkinson***8217;s diseaseMedicine Update August 2010: Date published: December 2009 Updated: August 2010 Pramipexole (Sifrol and Sifrol ER) for Parkinson
5) Effects of Aromatase Inhibition in Elderly Men with Low or Borderline-Low Serum Testosterone Levels. Benjamin Z. Leder, Jacqueline L. Rohrer, Stephen D. Rubin, Jose Gallo and Christopher Longcope Effects of Aromatase Inhibition in Elderly Men with Low or Borderline-Low Serum Testosterone Levels
6) Effects of Suppression of Estrogen Action by the P450 Aromatase Inhibitor Letrozole on Bone Mineral Density and Bone Turnover in Pubertal Boys Sanna Wickman, Eero Kajantie and Leo Dunkel Hospital for Children and Adolescents, University of Helsinki, Helsinki, FIN-00029 HUS, Finland Effects of Suppression of Estrogen Action by the P450 Aromatase Inhibitor Letrozole on Bone Mineral Density and Bone Turnover in Pubertal Boys
ohh here is another:
Today I want to talk about an AMAZING type of compound that has been growing immensely in popularity and use!
What is it?
SARMS!!!!!!
No not SERMS like Tamox or Clomid!
SARMS!
*SARM's stands for---> Selective androgen receptor modulators.
Why would I care about that?
Well they have some of the same kind of effects as anabolic steroids and other compounds that affect the androgen receptor. SARMs are more selective in their action then most steroids on the market currently and give much less side effects that are usually seen with these steroids.
The discovery of this new class of drugs is amazing not just to bodybuilders and power lifters, but to people in all walks of life.
Beneficial use could be from a simple old guy (or young guy like me) on HRT or a person having bone issues or even for something very life threatening like a women fighting for her life with breast cancer!
There are a lot of clinical applications for SARMS and possibly a lot more that we have not discovered yet.[1]
I find this so exciting because in my opinion this is just the start in the development of SARMs.
I guess, "Just the tip of the ice berg" you could say.
That's not meant to sound like we don't already have great SARMs already, we do!
We have some very amazing SARMs out right now and although none are legally on the market for general human use, if you know where to look, they do seem to be readily available now on the black market.
It is nice to think that soon HRT might just be 1 oral SARM dose a day and for some that might mean a lot if they do not like getting a shot every 1-2 weeks or rubbing on creams daily for HRT and that's besides the side effects part of it all.
There are the side effects of HRT that some people have issues with, for example someone with prostate issues (or even cancer) on HRT, well then the use of testosterone for HRT could be very troublesome for a person in that condition.
With a SARM that person could possibly use the SARM for his HRT treatment while limiting the effects on the prostate and maybe even helping it. There might even be a male oral contraceptive on its way![2]
Now I am no female, but I can only imagine the wonderful uses SARMS could have for women!
Think about it, just about every treatment for muscle wasting and hormonal issues are treated with... well hormones!
For a women loosing muscle mass, bone mass, has declining hormones or even less energy due to these issues could benefit greatly with SARMS and with limited side effects when compared to other hormone treatment.
For women using hormones, side effects could be (and more times than not) much worse for them than men. Women can develop an enlarged clitoris, body/facial hair and even a deepened voice!
For a women that could be devastating and to use hormones at an amount high enough to combat for eg. muscle wasting effectively, more times than not women seem to experience one or more of these side effects.
Now with SARMs there is a chance at not only helping female bodybuilders gain mass with limited side effects, but also treat the very ill and needy while limiting the side effects on females.
There can still be side effects for women, and especially at high doses of SARMS, but this would be a lot less so compared to most steroids currently available.
OK, OK, sounds great, but how is it so orally active yet not liver toxic like just about all other oral steroids out there?
Since SARMs are manmade and not actually a hormone they do not need to be methylated/17aa to make the hormone to be orally active, which is usually why it is liver toxic to begin with. SARM's provide the opportunity to design molecules that can be delivered orally without making them liver toxic. This is great due to the fact just about every oral hormone seems to be liver toxic due to the alterations made to the hormone making it more orally active and effective.
To understand how a SARM works you need to have a bit of an understanding about the androgen receptor, so here is a bit of info on that:
Androgens and Androgen receptors
The androgen receptor plays a big role in the function of many organs in the body including sexual organs, skeletal muscle, and bone. Androgen receptors let the body to respond to androgens in the body and androgen receptors are in a lot of the body's tissues.
When the androgen binds to the androgen receptor it regulates the activity of androgen responsive genes by turning them on or off. The androgens and their receptors help direct the development of male sexual characteristics during puberty.
But that's not the only thing they do, androgens also have other very important functions in males and females like controlling hair growth, mood, energy, cognitive function and sex drive (amongst other things).[3]
So a SARM is an ANDROGEN?
NO!
Some crazy ass scientist's figured out how to active the receptors without even using an androgen at all!
That's the beauty of it; SARMS are on a whole new level!
Over MANY years scientists have toyed with steroids to limit their side effects and utilize the effects they want from them.
I mean just about all AAS are just an altered form of testosterone, DHT or prog!
It has been many years and they still don't have a "perfect steroid"! >: - (
Now with SARMS on the other hand, they have just started toying with them and we are already this far! If you think of it like that, I can only imagine how advanced we will be with SARM's in the coming years.
I am very excited about this fact! That's not to say AAS is crap. I love testosterone myself and am on HRT. I love how it makes me feel and the help in recovery it gives me (on HRT or on cycle) But to be able to possibly use a SARM as full blown HRT treatment along with boosting sex drive and be a contraceptive and to be all orally taken, it is just amazing to me!
How I see it is there may even be quite a few SARMs to pick from sometime soon for HRT treatment.
What do I mean?
Ok let me try to explain my theory with 3 "made up" SARM's for HRT use:
SARM1: HRT treatment SARM with closest possible effects to testosterone, without the negative side effects.
SARM2: HRT treatment SARM with effects like testosterone but altered to boost libido much higher and also be an oral contraceptive
SARM3: HRT/muscle wasting SARM with effects like that of testosterone, but with a much higher anabolic activity. For use with HRT and/or muscle wasting patients.
The above is just me explain my theory, Please don't PM me asking where to get them lol.
What I am getting at is we may have an option for "many flavours" of SARMs depending on our personality, goals or conditions!
I think that's FREAKING AWESOME!!!
If you could cut down the amount of medications and treat more than one condition with just one drug that is not even liver toxic AND with less side effects is just amazing!
So what SARM's are out there then?
Well there is many and many still being made. I am going to talk about the 2 most popular and currently used and they are called Ostarine (or MK-2866) and Andarine (or S-4).
These SARMs very a bit in their effects but both will get the job done for those of us that are into powerlifting or bodybuilding.
So whats the deal of these two SARMs?
Here is a short description on them:
MK-2866 :
Ostarine is a selective androgen receptor modulator developed by GTx Inc for treatment of conditions like muscle wasting and osteoporosis. Ostarine is an orally active, potent and selective agonist for androgen receptors shown in animal and human studies to have anabolic effects in both muscle and bone. It has an androgenic potency around 1/3rd of its anabolic potency. It was shown in vitro to increase the ratio of osteoblast formation from bone marrow osteoprogenitor cells, and reduced the number of new osteoclasts formed. It produced dose-dependent increases in bone mineral density and mechanical strength in vivo, as well as decreasing body fat and increasing lean body mass.[4] Human trials have shown promising efficacy and with a long half-life in humans of about 24 hours.[5] Ostarine has also gone through human trials up to Phase II with positive results.[6]
Dosing: 10-40mg ed seems to be the norm in its black market use for muscle building effects.
S-4 :
Andarine is an orally active agonist for androgen receptors. In an animal model of benign prostatic hypertrophy, Andarine was shown to reduce prostate weight with similar efficacy to Finasteride, but without producing any reduction in muscle mass or anti-androgenic side effects. This suggests that it is able to block binding of dihydrotestosterone to its receptor targets in the prostate gland, but its partial agonist effects at androgen receptors prevent the side effects associated with the anti-androgenic drugs traditionally used for treatment of BPH. Studies showed that Andarine is rapidly absorbed and highly bioavailable after oral doses capable of maximal pharmacologic activity. The favorable pharmacokinetics of Andarine permits convenient low doses and show that it is a strong candidate for continued clinical development.[7] A common side effect is slightly yellow colored vision and night blindness, but these side effects diminish around 5-6 days after last dose.
Dosing: 30-100mg ed, 1-2X a day is the norm for black market use for muscle building effects.
Ok so now that I covered the basics on what the hell a SARM is and how they even work if they are not hormones, I will move on to how you can cycle these.
There is A LOT of debate on what is the best way to use these compounds (I mean for the most part medical human use it limited so) but I along with many others have personal experience with these compounds. So Combined with my years of research, personal experience (and of others) I will base these cycles of what I feel is the most effective yet safe way to go about it.
Now there is a lot of debate (more so in the past) that SARM's do not shut you down, I believe this to be untrue.
They may be VERY VERY mild in this regard and lower doses you may not even notice shut down at all, but they can cause shut down so keep PCT in mind and/or on hand as a possibility.
I rec a small PCT anyway if you are using them more than 4-6weeks at a time, just to be safe.
Some may argue to limit its use to 4 weeks, while others recommend much more. I found for optimal results with no added side effects (that I noticed or from others reports) that 6-8weeks min and 8-10wks avg is a good amount of time to run these SARM's.
I personally like 8-10wks of osta. *Also since we do not exactly have long term use record of them so it is best to be on the safer side*
SARMS CYCLES:
S-4 cycle:
Wk1-6 25mg ed 2X a day = 50mg total
Osta cycle:
Wk1-8 25mg ed
HA, very simple when compared to AAS cycles is it not?
If you feel like you may need a PCT then 2-3 weeks of low dosed Tamox (10mg ed) or Clomid (20-30mg ed) should help.
Most should be fine with just OTC supplemental help post cycle to aid in recovery.
I truly hope this information help someone out that is new to SARMs and did not understand them.
Hope you enjoyed!!!
Take care
References:
1) Selective androgen receptor modulators in preclinical and clinical development. Ramesh Narayanan, Michael L. Mohler, Casey E. Bohl, Duane D. Miller, and James T. Dalton
Selective androgen receptor modulators in preclinical and clinical development
2) A SARM for Horomonal Male Contraception
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/312/2/546.full.pdf
3) J Endocrinol Invest. 2003;26(3 Suppl):23-8. Sexual differentiation. Sinisi AA, Pasquali D, Notaro A, Bellastella A.
Sexual differentiation. [J Endocrinol Invest. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI
4) Kearbey JD, Gao W, Narayanan R, Fisher SJ, Wu D, Miller DD, Dalton JT. Selective Androgen Receptor Modulator (SARM) treatment prevents bone loss and reduces body fat in ovariectomized rats. Pharmaceutical Research. 2007 Feb;24(2):328-35. PMID 17063395
5) Gao W, Kim J, Dalton JT. Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of nonsteroidal androgen receptor ligands. Pharmaceutical Research. 2006 Aug;23(8):1641-58. PMID 16841196
6) GTx Announces That Ostarine Achieved Primary Endpoint Of Lean Body Mass And A Secondary Endpoint Of Improved Functional Performance Discovery and therapeutic promise of selective androgen receptor modulators. Chen J, Kim J, Dalton JT.Source Division of Pharmaceutics,College of Pharmacy, The Ohio State University, Columbus, Ohio 43210, USA.
Discovery and therapeutic promise of selective an... [Mol Interv. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI
if it's such common knowledge on how to make bac water then why do you think I got it from basskilleronline? [
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