human cloning

[Hogg]

Used to? Why not now? North end of your state has some really good Elk hunting and those are, IMO, the absolute best eating game species.

I knew you were looking for a good story....

I was roughly 19 at the time, clearing ground squirrels off the dairy farmer's property adjacent to my friend's ranch in Valley Center. Over the years, we had shot the shit out of the ground squirrels and some were rather large, like the size of a woodchuck. Anyway, so we waited behind a large oak tree for the little bastards to come up out of the burrow, they call a lot and seem to come up out of the burrow at least a half dozen or so after the first one. So they broke, my friend shot one out of the whole and the balance scattered. I nailed a huge one on the run but shot high and caught it in the high back. It was trying to run for the burrow with its front legs and I had to run the damn thing down. Hitting it with the butt of my gun did no good since the pad absorbed most of the impulse so I tried stomping it with my boot and had to give it a good half dozen stomps until it stopped moving. I looked down at this poor thing and asked myself why the hell I had shot it anyway....I mean, yeah, they had problems with the cows getting stuck in the burrows and breaking their legs.....but I wasnt the dairy farmer.....and as I took one last look down at this poor lifeless little son of a bitch, I thought of my cat. That was the end of shooting anything with fur.

I continued hunting dove and quail but that ended soon thereafter.

The sporting clays thing and trap and skeet.....I just wasnt hitting well enough. I was lucky to shoot a 19 on the trap range and had about a 55-60% hit ratio on sporting clays. I sucked at skeet...I'm not very coordinated and couldnt hit much of anything...shot the house a few times trying to catch it early....I just sucked at it and gave up.

From "The Life and Times of Hogg"

 

[dolfe1]

BS, Forgive me my friend, as I am a drunk, so chastise me if I am over simplifying the argument on the website. I mean no disrespect...

So basically the website backs up the KILLING of a fully-functioning human clone with Scripture. I give you that. However, as a society, we have determined that the killing of a fully-functioning human being is legal if there is a greater overriding need of society (abortion, the death penalty, war, etc.) Therefore, I would put cloning into that category.

Then the debate of "fully-functioning" and "what constitutes a life" begins. If a clone is made with a fully-functioning body, but lacks a conscious or even a brain (the body is raised in a chamber), is that still considered a life? What do you think? I don’t think it is myself. I don’t know what God considers a life...perhaps you could give an explanation or reasoning based upon Scripture. I am not educated on that subject...

I, personally, don’t find anything immoral about harboring blood and organs from a fully-developed body if the clone is conscious-less or brain-less. What do you guys think?

P.S. I hope I have not insulted you BS. Accept my apologies if I have.

I can understand putting cloning in the same category as abortion(which I am against), but the death penalty or war is not fair. People who are sentenced to the death penalty, or sent to war made their own choices and that is the result of their choice, it is not fair to put a clone in the same catergory when they have not had the opportunity to make a choice.

 

[Chip Bronson]

Hey, hey, hey, now. The term "defenseless animals" is incorrect. They have plenty of defenses. They have better hearing, smell, footspeed, the ability of flight, etc. All of these are defenses. It just so happens that they got caught. Of course, I would imagine that a large portion of them were bred for the purpose of experimentation, so that negates any defenses when you're born in a cage.

you guys have taken the term 'defenseless animals' completely out of context. when was the last time a mountain lion or a bear was routinely used for science experimentation? c'mon guys, you know i'm talking about cats, dogs, rabbits and the like. when was the last your life was threatened by a bunny? lol....

 

[Chip Bronson]

I am definitely for human cloning. I do think human clones will be considered individuals and probably will be given the same rights as every citizen.

There are many abnormalities, fatalities, etc. and that cant keep happening. There has to be something done, because that is just an atrocity.

Hopefully, in the future, we will be able to clone an individual and have a body with no brain. Or maybe a functioning brain (anatomically) but lacking an conscious or intelligence. That way we basically have an entire surplus of organs and blood to donate. That also gives us a great group of bodies on which to experiment.

I think people are too paranoid about human cloning. I agree there is the potential for abuse (a slave race, etc.), but the same could have been said about almost any area of science (space race, vaccines, nuclear bombs). I do, however, think the good will far outweigh the bad.

As far as cloning being against God's Will, that is a tough question. There is no real answer and anyone who tries to speak for God's Will makes me suspicious of their true intention.

In conclusion, people should just settle down about cloning. There seems to be a large "fear of change" voice in the world. I, myself, havent heard a really intelligent argument against cloning, as most I have read are "God doesnt like cloning" or something of that nature. Unless one can back their Christian agrument with Scripture, I usually dont put much stock into it.

P.S. I hope I have been clear, as I have had a lot to drink.

exactly what i was saying mark. so, i would have to agree, excellent post...

 

[Mark Kerr]

...but the death penalty or war is not fair. People who are sentenced to the death penalty, or sent to war made their own choices and that is the result of their choice, it is not fair to put a clone in the same catergory when they have not had the opportunity to make a choice.

No matter how you want to sugar-coat it, the death penalty and sending someone to war is still societally justified homicide. What you are saying is that, because of the criminal's choices, society is allowed to commit homicide. Just because you agree with the reason for homicide, doesnt mean the act isnt homicide.

Also, people who die in war often-times do not make a choice. That is the entire reason of conscription, or the draft. People sent to their deaths by society because we find it justifiable. Again, just because society believes they can justify this homicide, doesnt mean it isnt homicide. Not to mention the innocent civilians who are killed as well...

Lastly, we are talking about clones that have either no consciousness or no brain at all. Therefore, by definition, the clone cannot make a choice, because a body without consciousness or without a brain does not have the mental capacity to make a choice.

In conclusion, society feels that under certain specific circumstances, it is allowed to decide the fate of someone's life or death. The fact that someone made a choice is irrelevant, because society arbitrarily decides what choices get the death penalty.

 

[dolfe1]

No matter how you want to sugar-coat it, the death penalty and sending someone to war is still societally justified homicide. What you are saying is that, because of the criminal's choices, society is allowed to commit homicide. Just because you agree with the reason for homicide, doesnt mean the act isnt homicide.

Yes, I would agree

[/QUOTE]Also, people who die in war often-times do not make a choice. That is the entire reason of conscription, or the draft. People sent to their deaths by society because we find it justifiable. Again, just because society believes they can justify this homicide, doesnt mean it isnt homicide.[/QUOTE]



I will refer to my previous post, people do have choices, drafted or volunteer, go to another country if your country calls upon your duty and you do not want to fulfill this obligation, you have a choice.

[/QUOTE]Lastly, we are talking about clones that have either no consciousness or no brain at all. Therefore, by definition, the clone cannot make a choice, because a body without consciousness or without a brain does not have the mental capacity to make a choice.[/QUOTE]



This goes back to the debate of what life is and I think there is a difference between life and fully functioning. IMO for instance without a brain I would not consider a person to be alive even if the rest of the body was functioning, and just because one is not conscious and cannot make a decesion does not mean they are not alive, again I don't agree with the killing of a clone ir they were determined to be alive.

 

[thick]

edit i will put new thread up

LOL...a couple of months ago, a 'defenseless' mountain lion killed a cyclist and then grabbed another one off her bike by her helmet.....now that is an extreme case of where the animals fight back but clearly, with habitat pressure and perhaps a lack of food, the animal changed his modus operundi to ensure survival.

The funny thing is, I use to ride at Whiting Ranch every weekend and often at dusk during the summer months. I've witnessed deer crossing the fire road not more than 10 yards from me and I've heard rustling in the bushes. I've also rode at a place called 'the Luge' in the black of night....riding 5 miles per hour up hill while listening to noises all around me in the bushes and in the tall grass. To consider that you are the hunted rather than the hunter is a scary proposition....especially since I cant drag my shotgun along for the ride...so what would I do facing a 120# mountain lion who is staring me down like a Big Mac and fries???? I honestly cant say...but the thought of it is scary. I'm sure I'd try to do something....use the bike as a shield, find a rock....try to nail the fucker in the head....but what if I miss....that 'poor defenseless animal' might get lucky and get one of his 1" long claws around my leg and take a good bite...then what? And so indeed, there is a point where the 'poor defenseless animal' line loses ground....I believe however that it is similar to humans. We are compassionate toward those who are harmless, but if a person is a rapist or murderer, our sentiments change dramatically. The same holds true for animals......put out the word in the community that there is a man-eating mountain lion running the canyons and you can be nearly guaranteed that most who venture in the canyon will pack firearms, whether legal or not, and if someone spots the animal, they will surely attempt to kill it.

I dont know where I was going with this....as you guys may have caught on by now, I tend to explore my thoughts while writing.....oh well.

 

[dolfe1]

1" claws?

That's a big kitty, imagine coming across that f*cker in the middle the woods!

 

[Mark Kerr]

Yeah, you are right, it really does come down the definition of "living", much like abortion does. I agree with you that killing a living clone would be wrong, and I do think living clones would probably get the same rights as everyone else. At least I would hope so!

As far as human cloning, again, I think the benefits far outweigh the costs. I am still waiting for a good argument against cloning, or stem cell research for that matter. I think many of the religious arguments are not on very solid ground. For some reason, people have often tried to derail science in the name of religion (look at Galileo and the Catholic Church). I cannot think of (off the top of my head) anytime in history that religious objections to a scientific advancement have saved mankind from anything...

 

[Bob Smith]

Yeah, you are right, it really does come down the definition of "living", much like abortion does. I agree with you that killing a living clone would be wrong, and I do think living clones would probably get the same rights as everyone else. At least I would hope so!

As far as human cloning, again, I think the benefits far outweigh the costs. I am still waiting for a good argument against cloning, or stem cell research for that matter. I think many of the religious arguments are not on very solid ground. For some reason, people have often tried to derail science in the name of religion (look at Galileo and the Catholic Church). I cannot think of (off the top of my head) anytime in history that religious objections to a scientific advancement have saved mankind from anything...

Is abortion a scientific advancement?

Stem cells can be harvested from things other than aborted fetuses or murdered babies. If getting the stem cells doesnt require killing the baby, then Im all for stem cell research. Get the cells from umbilical cords instead and no one has to be injured or killed.

For cloning, at this point in time the technology is still very new and the results are anything but consistent. I dont see advances in animal cloning progressing at a rate where I would even remotely feel comfortable having attempts at a cloned human in the next 5-10 years.

 

[dolfe1]

Yeah, you are right, it really does come down the definition of "living", much like abortion does. I agree with you that killing a living clone would be wrong, and I do think living clones would probably get the same rights as everyone else. At least I would hope so!

As far as human cloning, again, I think the benefits far outweigh the costs. I am still waiting for a good argument against cloning, or stem cell research for that matter. I think many of the religious arguments are not on very solid ground. For some reason, people have often tried to derail science in the name of religion (look at Galileo and the Catholic Church). I cannot think of (off the top of my head) anytime in history that religious objections to a scientific advancement have saved mankind from anything...

I am not educated enough to really determine if the benefits outweight the costs of cloning, I do have my opinions though and it is an intersting subject to debate. As for your last statement if you believe that God gave man free will I suppose you never will.

 

[Grizzly]

It was trying to run for the burrow with its front legs and I had to run the damn thing down. Hitting it with the butt of my gun did no good since the pad absorbed most of the impulse so I tried stomping it with my boot and had to give it a good half dozen stomps until it stopped moving. I looked down at this poor thing and asked myself why the hell I had shot it anyway....I mean, yeah, they had problems with the cows getting stuck in the burrows and breaking their legs.....but I wasnt the dairy farmer.....and as I took one last look down at this poor lifeless little son of a bitch, I thought of my cat. That was the end of shooting anything with fur

Hmmm, not only am I the "fight for fun as opposed to the chess match" barbarian, but it appears that I'm the cruel beast, too. Oftentimes, when a pheasant gets shot it doesn't die immediately. I LOVE when I see those little bastards start running. I take off after the little fucker, catch him and look in his eye while he tries to spur me. Then....I wring his neck! Bwahahaha.

 

[Hogg]

Hmmm, not only am I the "fight for fun as opposed to the chess match" barbarian, but it appears that I'm the cruel beast, too. Oftentimes, when a pheasant gets shot it doesn't die immediately. I LOVE when I see those little bastards start running. I take off after the little fucker, catch him and look in his eye while he tries to spur me. Then....I wring his neck! Bwahahaha.

LOL.....they have this place out here called Rahaugies. They stock the fields with birds and you pay to hunt there. Evidently, last time my boss went with a couple of clients, the dog got on point with a pheasant and he wouldnt flush, so my boss kept stomping the ground to get him to break. Finally, he was right on top of the bird so he field goal kicked him out of the roost and blasted him about 20 feet out. Needless to say, we gave him the nickname 'kick-n-shoot' thereafter. To add insult to injury, the vendor that sponsored the hunt filmed it on his camcorder.

 

[thick]

lmao. TOok my son and nephew this year. I shot a pheasant and had to ring its neck. My son was loving it and ready to shoot his own. My nephew who is being raised by my sister(no father figure) kept calling the pheasants pidgeons lmao and felt really sorry for the bird. I normally dont like hearing the deer bawling but after the last couple of weeks I am going to massacre those motherfuckers

Hmmm, not only am I the "fight for fun as opposed to the chess match" barbarian, but it appears that I'm the cruel beast, too. Oftentimes, when a pheasant gets shot it doesn't die immediately. I LOVE when I see those little bastards start running. I take off after the little fucker, catch him and look in his eye while he tries to spur me. Then....I wring his neck! Bwahahaha.

 

[Grizzly]

LOL Good story, Hogg. I've grabbed a couple that wouldn't flush and then thrown them up in the air so the other guys could shoot them. Bunch of savages, eh?

You're right, Thick. Hunting is sort of sad sometimes. I mean, I really like soft, furry things. On the other had, the death experienced at the hands of a human is typically more "humane" than any other secenario. I've seen a hawk at work and it doesn't look like a very fun way to go. I'd much rather take a 12 gauge at 20 yards.

 

[thick]

no shit. How about in the safari getting eaten alive. a gun is a much better way to go. With deer it is a gun and a slit of the throat. Next year them fuckers arent getting the mercy slice. THey fucked up my car and than this morning in broad daylight two of the stupid fuckers came within inches of screwing up the other side of my car. It is like driving through a state park here. Damn I hate em. Dont give me shit about civilization taking their land either. There are miles and miles of corn and timber for those dumbfucks here. They are just that stupid

LOL Good story, Hogg. I've grabbed a couple that wouldn't flush and then thrown them up in the air so the other guys could shoot them. Bunch of savages, eh?

You're right, Thick. Hunting is sort of sad sometimes. I mean, I really like soft, furry things. On the other had, the death experienced at the hands of a human is typically more "humane" than any other secenario. I've seen a hawk at work and it doesn't look like a very fun way to go. I'd much rather take a 12 gauge at 20 yards.

 

[Grizzly]

So are the pheasant. One IA opening day, they were all sitting on the fence posts and shit. Right in plain view. Silly bastards, don't they know that IA allows "road hunting"?

 

[Hogg]

I remember dove season back in 87-88 and an old sodbuster gave us shit for picking a couple of doves off on the ground. He said "Thats texas style.....nobody shoots birds out here texas style"...and then proceeded to wait for the doves to land on the powerline and shot them off the wire. Whose the moron in this scenario?

 

[thick]

wow, i run across dumb ones like that every once in awhile. Normally if road hunting the smart ones are gone if you turn around. i usually only shootem flying but the one i talked about went to run in the corn. I had to make a fast shot through the weeds and didnt hit em hard. He was very lively when i caught him . Road hunting can be a good time. Hogg, that is funny. Gotta wait til they land on the powerlines lmao

So are the pheasant. One IA opening day, they were all sitting on the fence posts and shit. Right in plain view. Silly bastards, don't they know that IA allows "road hunting"?

 

[dolfe1]

I am meso's computer guru. If you have a computer problem ask someone else.

LMAO, damn straight