I am on HRT with DIM...

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Natural Prevention: I3C and Cancer

By Terri Mitchell


Lung, colon, breast and prostate are the leading cancers in America.1 According to the latest government figures, from 1950 to 2000, lung cancer deaths rose 378% in people aged 65 to 74. The 5-year survival rate for lung cancer is only 15%.2 What's really shocking, however, is the estimated number of cases of breast and prostate cancer are projected to exceed those of lung cancer. Clearly, new ways of preventing and treating these common cancers are needed.
Indole-3-carbinol (I3C) is a phyto (plant) compound from cruciferous vegetables such as cabbage and brussels sprouts. It has been proven effective against several types of cancer, including colon. Numerous studies have been done in cells, rodents and humans. They show that I3C has multiple actions against the development of cancer, and cancer itself.
Studies on lung cancer indicate that I3C is powerful against DNA damage caused by cigarette smoke. Nitrosamines found in smoke are a major cause of lung cancer. In a study done at New York University Medical Center, 13 female smokers took 400 mg of I3C for five days, and researchers measured the effects on a nitrosamine known as NNK. Results showed that I3C partially neutralized it.3 Studies in rodents confirm that I3C prevents NNK and other nitrosamines from causing DNA damage. It works by changing the way they're metabolized.


Diet plays a major role in the development of cancer. In Korea, the incidence of lung, colon, breast and prostate cancers is much lower than in North America. Korean researchers looked into the possible connection between the consumption of cruciferous vegetables and colon cancer. Cabbage and radish are eaten frequently in this Asian country, and they contain I3C. The research was conducted in rodents on both an inherited type of colon cancer, and one that was environmentally-induced by a chemical. The results show that I3C has a significant effect against precancerous conditions. I3C reduced the incidence of polyps in the genetically susceptible mice 24%. Another precancerous condition known as "aberrant crypt foci" also responded to I3C treatment. The number of foci was reduced approximately 60% in the mice that were treated with the chemical.4 The optimal amount of I3C was not huge-it was a standard dose that can be taken orally (approximately 6 mg per kg of body weight per day).In fact, increasing the dose reduced effectiveness-an effect that has been shown in other studies as well.


Other important research was recently published in the medical journal, Cancer Letters. Researchers in India report that I3C can reverse chemotherapy resistance.5 Multidrug resistance can develop after treatment with drugs used to treat cancer. When resistance develops, cancer cells no longer respond to treatment. The cause has been traced to a protein called P-glycoprotein (P-gp). Some cancers begin manufacturing P-gp once they are treated with cancer-killing drugs. The P-gp protein causes chemotherapy to be ejected from the cancer cells. While cancer cells use it to their benefit, the P-gp protein is not unique to this type of cell. Normal liver and kidney cells use P-gp to detoxify-it's a normal protein being used in abnormally high amounts by cancer cells.
There are drugs that can reverse mutidrug resistance caused by P-gp, but they have serious side effects. Since I3C shares some of the same biochemical characteristics as the beneficial drugs, researchers were anxious to know if it could also reverse multidrug resistance, and whether it would have the same serious side effects.
Study Casts Doubt on DIM Claim
Claims and counter-claims are part-and-parcel of the supplement industry, as lay people and scientists alike strive to get at the truth. One of the claims that surfaced in the past few years is the assertion that I3C's anti-estrogen action is entirely due to one of its metabolites, DIM (diindolylmethane).
The study was done to compare the effects of known estrogen-blockers tamoxifen and I3C on fertility. Because of the claim that I3C's estrogen-blocking effects are due to DIM, it was used in the study as well. When the results came in, both I3C and tamoxifen were shown to block estrogen (in different ways). DIM didn't work at all. The researchers concluded that "DIM exerted no significant effects on any of the endpoints studied, even at the highest dose, indicating that the antiestrogenic effects of I3C are not mediated by this metabolite of I3C."
DIM is a derivative of I3C that forms when I3C is broken down by stomach acid. It represents about 10% of the total phyto-compounds that a person gets when they take I3C. There are many others, with two new ones recently discovered. Until a clear-cut advantage for DIM over the other 90% of I3C's derivative phyto-compounds is proven (and it may eventually be in certain types of cancer), I3C is the more prudent choice.
Gao X, et al. Endocrine disruption by indole-3-carbinol and tamoxifen: blockage of ovulation. Toxicol Appl Pharmacol 2002 183:179-88.

I3C was given by injection to mice treated with vincristine and vinblastine. The results were excellent. I3C worked slightly better than the drug, verapamil, at eliminating the P-gp protein. And the good news was there were no adverse side effects.
Another potential cancer-related action for I3C has been discovered. Researchers in India report that injections of I3C 48 hours prior to treatment with a chemotherapeutic drug known as cyclophosphamide protects bone marrow against toxicity.6 The research was conducted in mice using three different doses of I3C. In this case, the highest dose (1000 mg/kg of body weight) gave the greatest protection (52% decrease of DNA damage). It is important to stress that in this study, I3C was injected, not given orally, which probably allowed it to be tolerated in a higher dose. In studies where it is administered orally, lower doses usually work better.
I3C is well-known for its ability to modulate cancer-promoting hormones, including estrogen.7-10 It works by altering the way such hormones are metabolized. By turning metabolism towards less powerful metabolites, I3C helps reduce levels of "strong," cancer-promoting hormones in the body. This helps reduce the potential for the development of hormone-related cancers.11
Another way I3C helps prevent cancer is by blocking carcinogens. One cancer-causing agent is aflatoxin, a toxin from mold that causes liver cancer. The mold that creates aflatoxin grows on peanuts, corn and other grains (look for "certified aflatoxin-free" organic products to avoid possible contamination). Several studies have been done on I3C and aflatoxin. They show that dietary amounts of I3C block aflatoxin's effects in the liver, and stop it from causing cancer.12,13 But the importance of taking I3C, and not one of its derivatives such as DIM (diindolylmethane), was highlighted in a study from Oregon State University.14 DIM is one of the plant chemicals that I3C converts to in the stomach, and it's available separately as a supplement. It appears that DIM is the factor responsible for modulating certain enzymes in the liver (cytochrome p450) that help detoxify carcinogenic chemicals.15 But DIM is only one of dozens of factors derived from I3C in the stomach that have anti-cancer effects. After researchers tracked what happens to I3C after it is taken orally by rats for a week, they concluded that its aflatoxin-blocking action is caused by a combination of different I3C derivatives, not any single factor. As a bonus, they also discovered a new I3C derivative.
________________________________________
References
1. Louisiana, the District of Columbia, Mississippi, and Kentucky are the states with the highest rate of cancer. New Mexico, California, Colorado and Utah have the lowest. Age-adjusted rates, National Vital Statistics Report, Vol. 50, No. 15, Sept. 16, 2002.
2. National Cancer Institute, SEER Cancer Statistics Review 1975-2000.
3. Taioli E, et al. Effects of indole-3-carbinol on the metabolism of 4-(methylnitrosamino)-1-(3-pyridyl)-1-butanone in smokers. Cancer Epidem Biomarkers Prev 1997 6:517-22.
4. Kim DJ, et al. Chemoprevention of colon cancer by Korean food plant components. Mutat Res 2003 523-24:99-107.
5. Arora A, et al. Modulation of vinca-alkaloid-induced P-glycoprotein expression by indole-3-carbinol. Cancer Lett 2003 189:167-73.
6. Agrawal RC, et al. Prevention of chromosomal aberration in mouse bone marrow by indole-3-carbinol. Toxicology Lett 1999 106:137-41.
7. Michnovicz JJ, et al. Changes in levels of urinary estrogen metabolites after oral indole-3-carbinol treatment in humans. J Nat Cancer Inst 1997 89:718-23.
8. Yuan F, et al. Anti-estrogenic activities of indole-3-carbinol in cervical cells: implication for prevention fo cervical cancer. Anticancer Res 1999 19:1673-80.
9. Jellinck PH, et al. Distinct forms of hepatic androgen 6 beta-hydroxylase induced in the rat by indole-3-carbinol and pregnenolone carbonitrile. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol 1994 51:219-25.
10. Wortelboer HM, et al. Acid reaction products of indole-3-carbinol and their effects on cytochrome P450 and phase II enzymes in rat and monkey hepatocytes. Biochem Pharmacol 1992 43:1439-47.
11. Frydoonfar HR, et al. The effect of indole-3-carbinol and sulforaphane on a prostate cancer cell line. ANZ J Surg 2003 73:154-6.
12. Dashwood RH, et al. Mechanisms of anti-carcinogenesis by indole-3-carbinol: detailed in vivo DNA binding dose-response studies after dietary administration with aflatoxin B1. Carcinogenesis 1988 9:427-32.
13. Manson MM, et al. Chemoprevention of aflatoxin B1-induced carcinogenesis by indole-3-carbinol in rat liverpredicting the outcome using early biomarkers. Carcinogenesis 1998 19:1829-36.
14. Stresser DM, et al. Mechanisms of tumor modulation by indole-3-carbinol. Disposition and excretion in male Fischer 344 rats. Drug Metab Disp 1995 23:965-75.
15. Renwick AB, et al. Effect of some indole derivatives on xenobiotic metabolism and xenobiotic-induced toxicity in cultured rat liver slices. Food Chem Toxicol 1999 37:609-18
 
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forex said:
Hey guys, I have found 2 articles at the Life Extention website, based on these articles I may be switching tp I3-C as it seems to be better.
You'll be disappointed with IC3. How many men have you read here that have claimed good results reducing E2 with IC3? None that I see!

OTOH, I've been using Indolplex with DIM for about 4 years now and it's very effective at reducing E2. I have about 20 blood tests that confirm it works. Many other men on TRT or HCG use it with similar results.

forex said:
Guys and Swale could you please let me know what you think about this as I am getting confused :confused: . Thanks.
The story I heard was that the LEF guy was initially very excited by Zeligs' work and tried to get Zeligs to let him offer links to his Indolplex/DIM resources from the LEF website. Zeligs turned him down. Ever since then the LEF guy has been on a mission against Zeligs.

Now, reread the first article and it will make perfect sense.
 
I sure do wish I had time tonight to get right into this topic, as it is absolutely fascinating. Hopefully, I can free some time in the next couple of days.

Dig in, guys!

I am not taking sides, as I am still researching the subject. I do note, as I am sure many of you have as well, that the LEF author does make it kind of personal at times--which decreases his argument, IMPO.
 
The Importance of Bioavailability

The two articles above both overlook (perhaps deliberately?) the concept of bioavailability. Many, if not most, of the studies cites are in vitro (i.e., in a test tube) or injections (directly into the blood). When taken orally as supplements, IC3 and DIM are digested in the stomach before they ever get to the bloodstream to impact E2. Zeligs' patented formulation allows DIM to survive the digestion process and make its way into the bloodstream.

But the proof is in the pudding. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

Also, as the second article points out, DIM is *NOT* an antiaromatase. DIM stimulates the P450 system in the liver to break down E2 into more benign (and cancer protective) estrogen metabolites. DIM reduces E2 via a completely different means than AIs.
 
Thanks, that makes cense. :)

If you guys recall from my first post I had forgotten my E2 levels, well I spoke to my doc today and my E2 b4 I began any HRT therapy at all was at 52 (range of 10-52) and my free test levels were at 47 (range of 50-210). They seem way out of wack!!

Any way after my last blood test the E2 levels shot up to 96 (range 10-52) and free test 180 (range 50-210), so that is when My doc lowered my WEEKLY HCG intake to 3500 from 4000 (in 7 equal shots). He did not at that point give me an AI because he has seen peoples bodys in the first few months of HRT regulate themselves, and if after my next blood test on 4-1 the E2 does not go down he said we will take armidex and bring the HCG back up to 4000 a week (keep in mind I take 1IU a day of siazen also + 100mg DHEA).

My question for Swale -if you are not too busy- what do you think about that? And could DIM lower my levels to within an acceptable range w/out Armidex? sorry for the bold I just wanted to make sure you see this...as I know you are very busy. Oh yeah...my forehead is flakey and dry too, is this because of the E2? :o

(Today I am also stopping DIM so that my doc can get a good read on my E2 w/out interference, he said he needs me off of it for 2 weeks to see if the E2 levels have responded to the lower HCG and the time factor).

Thank you so much for your time. I thank all of you for all of you posts to me this week on this subject, this is a great forum and I hope to be of some value to it one day. :D

Side note: Why do I have to keep re-setting my password every day or so? Its a bit annoying it will not let me login with the same password after about a day and I have to generate a new one through the system?? Thanks. Ed
 
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forex said:
I spoke to my doc today and my E2 b4 I began any HRT therapy at all was at 52 (range of 10-52) and my free test levels were at 47 (range of 50-210). They seem way out of wack!!
Although you're quite young, E2 dominance is unfortunately very common as men get older. But, it seems to me that, now that you're on HCG, your pre-HCG numbers are not what counts as long as you're on HCG. However since you're T/E2 ratio was very low before beginning HCG, I suspect that you will need some sort of E2 management going forward.

forex said:
Any way after my last blood test the E2 levels shot up to 96 (range 10-52) and free test 180 (range 50-210), so that is when My doc lowered my WEEKLY HCG intake to 3500 from 4000 (in 7 equal shots).
That's a very high HCG dosage. High dosages over a long period of time can desensitize the testicles. At that point you become primary and need to go on standard TRT.

Typical HCG dosages range from about 600 IU to 2000 IU per week. Generally, you start off higher than that for a few weeks until the testicles restore function. Dosage is adjusted going forward based on periodic blood test results.

forex said:
...could DIM lower my levels to within an acceptable range w/out Armidex?
Yes. However, some men don't response to DIM.

I think that DIM should ALWAYS be tried before Arimidex. If DIM works for you, it's a far better solution for a variety of reasons.

I supsect that the reason many men don't respond to DIM is because they're using the wrong brand. Unlike prescription medications, supplements are not regulated. There's a huge variation in the quality of supplements.

I don't think the brand of DIM you cited (Vitamin World) is manufactured under Zeligs' patent. The label says that DIM and BioResponse are trademarks, but the label doesn't say something like "manufactured under patent so and so" like Indolplex does. Also, the ingredients listed on the label don't include the ingredients in Zeligs' proprietary formulation. The brand I use is Indolplex with DIM by PhytoPharmica. See: www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html

forex said:
...my forehead is flakey and dry too, is this because of the E2? :o
It's possible. Skin variations are a common symptom of high or low E2.

forex said:
Side note: Why do I have to keep re-setting my password every day or so? Its a bit annoying it will not let me login with the same password after about a day and I have to generate a new one through the system?? Thanks. Ed
Can't help you there. I suggest you email the Administrator.
 
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Thank you David, you have been a great help. :)

My Dr. tells me that I am too young to desensitize my testicles (33yrs old). I already asked my doc if he would do the Swale method w/cream and HCG at the same time (well in the same week anyway) he did not say I was a candidate for that...only patience that have low functioning testicles do this (older patience) :(

I asked about injections of cyponaite too, he will not use that as it is an AAS (may cause longer term complications ie: cancer), and it is not a bioidentical testosterone like he uses :confused: Is this true (regarding the cyp)? If so why are most people here on it and not bioidentical (the same your body makes) test?

Anyway, maybe it would be better if I cycled the cream and HCG (every 3 months switch), do you think that may solve the issue of possibly decensitizing my testicles?
 
forex said:
Thank you David, you have been a great help. :)
You're welcome! :)

forex said:
My Dr. tells me that I am too young to desensitize my testicles (33yrs old).
Nonsense! See Medline articles 6210708 and 3583230.

forex said:
I already asked my doc if he would do the Swale method w/cream and HCG at the same time (well in the same week anyway) he did not say I was a candidate for that...only patience that have low functioning testicles do this (older patience) :(
If you need more than about 1,500 to IU of HCG per week to get your T into the upper normal range, then I'd say you're a good candidate for adding exogenous T.

forex said:
I asked about injections of cyponaite too, he will not use that as it is an AAS (may cause longer term complications ie: cancer), and it is not a bioidentical testosterone like he uses :confused: Is this true (regarding the cyp)? If so why are most people here on it and not bioidentical (the same your body makes) test?
Different doctors have different opinions. Especially in this new and unchartered area of HRT.

I don't use any exogenous T. If I did, I would probably opt for bioidentical T. I don't know whether or not cyponaite is bioidentical.

forex said:
Anyway, maybe it would be better if I cycled the cream and HCG (every 3 months switch), do you think that may solve the issue of possibly decensitizing my testicles?
I don't know. What I do know is that there's no good reason to take any more HCG than you need. It results in excess E2 and may desensitize the testicles.
 
My Dr informed me that cypniate is NOT bioidentical, this is why he does not use it.

Thanks again for your replies,:)

I will use this info as amo. the next time I see him on 4-8 after my bloodtest on 4-1.
 
The test is test. But a cyp ester has been added to slow the clearing time from the body to help keep T levels more stabil over a longer period of time.
 
buck said:
The test is test. But a cyp ester has been added to slow the clearing time from the body to help keep T levels more stabil over a longer period of time.
cyp test is not BIO-IDENTICAL test. BIO-IDENTICAL means the same exact amino acid structure as the one you produce in your body. In other words this cyp is a foriegn substance as far as youir body is concerned and it is not as safe as BIO-IDENTICAL test.
The big drug compaies can not attain patents on bio-identical hormones as they are a naturaly occurring substance in nature so they manipulate the structure in order to get a patent on it in turn, it ecomes less safe. This is what my HRT doc has told me.

Maybe Swale could comment on this to help clear the air.
 
are you claiming that once the ester is cleaved the test is then not bioidentical and that some adding the ester makes it a foreign substance and hence dnagerous somehow?

jb
 
jboldman said:
are you claiming that once the ester is cleaved the test is then not bioidentical and that some adding the ester makes it a foreign substance and hence dnagerous somehow?

jb
I really do not know the answer to that, I was just merely repeating what my doc told me. I will see him on 4-8 and will get a more direct answer from him, sorry I could not clarify this now :(

The more I read about cyp the more I dissagree with my doc about it not being natural... I am confused, maybe he is wrong...
 
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forex said:
I really do not know the answer to that, I was just merely repeating what my doc told me. I will see him on 4-8 and will get a more direct answer from him, sorry I could not clarify this now :(

The more I read about cyp the more I dissagree with my doc about it not being natural... I am confused, maybe he is wrong...


This very issue came up in a thread on SBI a while ago. SWALE's response:

"I do not consider the addition of an ester to the testosterone molecule, in order to improve its pharmacokinetics, compromising of its bioidentical nature."
 
cpeil2 said:
This very issue came up in a thread on SBI a while ago. SWALE's response:

"I do not consider the addition of an ester to the testosterone molecule, in order to improve its pharmacokinetics, compromising of its bioidentical nature."
thanks for your answer, cpeil2. ;) that helps.
 
DavidZ said:
You're welcome! :)

Nonsense! See Medline articles 6210708 and 3583230.

If you need more than about 1,500 to IU of HCG per week to get your T into the upper normal range, then I'd say you're a good candidate for adding exogenous T.

Different doctors have different opinions. Especially in this new and unchartered area of HRT.

I don't use any exogenous T. If I did, I would probably opt for bioidentical T. I don't know whether or not cyponaite is bioidentical.

I don't know. What I do know is that there's no good reason to take any more HCG than you need. It results in excess E2 and may desensitize the testicles.
DavidZ, I can not find these medline articles, could you place a link to them please. Thank you :)
 
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J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1982 Jul;55(1):76-80. Related Articles, Links


Testicular responsiveness to chronic human chorionic gonadotropin administration in hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.

D'Agata R, Vicari E, Aliffi A, Maugeri G, Mongioi A, Gulizia S.

Steroidogenic responsiveness to long term hCG administration (1500 U three times a week for 23 months) was characterized in 8 males with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH). During hCG treatment, testosterone (T), which was in the prepuberal range under basal conditions, rose considerably to the upper end of the normal range and remained at that level during the 23 months of observation. A 2.5-fold increase was observed in serum levels of 17 beta-estradiol (E2) an increment less than seen with T. The increment in 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone was also lower than that in T throughout the study; thus, the 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone to T ratio, despite continuous hCG administration, remained low. Serum androstenedione was slightly increased during hCG therapy. No significant changes were observed in serum levels of dehydroepiandrosterone. These data indicate that continuous long term hCG administration stimulated T levels in HH, with a relatively small change in E2. The kinetics of the T and E2 responses to 2000 U hCG, evaluated after 23 months of therapy, indicated that the testicular response was markedly reduced. No increment in T levels was observed at 24 h; the maximal response occurred at 48 h. This pattern of T response supports the idea that partial testicular desensitization occurs in HH patients receiving chronic treatment with hCG.
 
Horm Metab Res. 1987 May;19(5):216-21. Related Articles, Links


Testicular responsiveness following chronic administration of hCG (1500 IU every six days) in untreated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.

Balducci R, Toscano V, Casilli D, Maroder M, Sciarra F, Boscherini B.

The observation that the testosterone (T) response to a single intramuscular injection of hCG is prolonged suggests that currently used regimens (2-3 injections per week) to stimulate endogenous androgen secretion in hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) patients have to be reassessed. Moreover, during the last few years, Leydig cell steroidogenic desensitization has been found after massive doses of hCG. The aim of the present investigation, carried out in 6 HH patients who showed no signs of puberty, was to study the effect of 1500 IU hCG administered every six days over a period of one year to induce the onset of pubertal development. To evaluate the kinetics of the response of T, 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 alpha-OHP) and 17 beta-oestradiol (E2), blood samples were taken basally and 1, 2, 4 and 6 days after drug injection. This dynamic study was performed after the first injection and after the 4th and 12th month of treatment. During this one year time period, a progressive increase in testicular size was observed. Comparing plasma T levels (mean +/- SE) before the first injection (11.2 +/- 4.7 ng/dl) with the corresponding values at the 4th (38.7 +/- 10.5 ng/dl) and 12th months (99.5 +/- 19.9 ng/dl) of therapy, a progressive and significant increase was observed. T reached a maximum elevation 58 hours after hCG injection at the 4th month (198.3 +/- 42 ng/dl; P less than 0.01) and at the 12th month (415.6 +/- 62.6 ng/dl; P less than 0.05), whereas it remained unchanged following the first hCG injection
 
Thanks fellas, I have sent this on to my doc, hopefully he gets me off of all of the hcg and on swales protocol... i will push my hardest with him on my next visit, 4-8-05.
thanks again. :)
 
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